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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
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Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

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assuming it's not Hollywood-China Film Festival it's Hard core fan freak (according to google)

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In general I didn't like most of the epilogue except for the last scene with Rand and the pipe and Cadsuane becoming Amyrlin (that was totally cool!). I understand that it was written by RJ (far from his best writing IMO) and BS wanted to preserve it but I think that this once he should have worked more on it.

 

For the record, the Cadsuane scene was written by Brandon. And Cadsuane didn't 'become' Amyrlin; that was left open-ended as well. It wasn't even an official summons.

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In general I didn't like most of the epilogue except for the last scene with Rand and the pipe and Cadsuane becoming Amyrlin (that was totally cool!). I understand that it was written by RJ (far from his best writing IMO) and BS wanted to preserve it but I think that this once he should have worked more on it.

 

For the record, the Cadsuane scene was written by Brandon. And Cadsuane didn't 'become' Amyrlin; that was left open-ended as well. It wasn't even an official summons.

 

yeh, but it's pretty clear where things are going. I didn't know that this bit was written by BS. He only mentioned that most of the epilogue was RJ. I like the Cadsuane part because I find it to be a very nice plot twist.  I was sure that Egwene would survive in part because I didn't see who could reasonably become Amyrlin if she died.  Likewise, I was sure that Cadsuane would die because her mission in life would be  fulfilled when the LB was over. What ended up happening is quite satisfactory IMO even though my own predictions about both of them were totally wrong.

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Logical Conundrum.

Rand needs to break the seals at a specific time.

Done before or after, it's bad for him.

Why doesn't Taim just bust the Seals at any random moment other than the instant it benefits Rand?

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In general I didn't like most of the epilogue except for the last scene with Rand and the pipe and Cadsuane becoming Amyrlin (that was totally cool!). I understand that it was written by RJ (far from his best writing IMO) and BS wanted to preserve it but I think that this once he should have worked more on it.

 

For the record, the Cadsuane scene was written by Brandon. And Cadsuane didn't 'become' Amyrlin; that was left open-ended as well. It wasn't even an official summons.

 

yeh, but it's pretty clear where things are going.

 

Not really. She's escaped several times before; it's easy to see her escaping again. If they wanted it to be clear they would have done the summons; it was meant to be ambiguous.

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I kind of wish the last book was written by Terez. I would probably have to spend weeks looking for a damn ending and then decrypting it, but no doubt it would be perfectly thought out. :wink:

LOL

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I agree that Demandred's 3 duels is stretching plausibility and I did wonder why he doesn't know that Rand would be at Shayol Ghul since thats the Dragons foretold place, but he was awesome and did so much damage

 

Don't forget that time distorts in Shayol Ghul, the entire last battle happened over days and weeks, but to Rand it had been barely and hour. Mixed with the fact that Rand had the ter'angreal dagger that hid him from the shadow until the last moment (and thus disrupting even Lanfears' ability to find ta'veren) you sort of end up with a paradoxical situation where Rand was already fighting the DO days possibly weeks before Demandred even had lead his army to attack Randland. Add in Demandreds' irrational hatred and obsession with Rand and his suspicion that Rand was secretly hiding/leading the forces of light, it stopped him from outright winning the battle. Since he was afraid Rand was simply waiting for Demandred to commit all of his power and to strike at him while he was weakened/exhausted.

So.....now that it's all over, how does all the theory fit into the ending?

 

Why did the DO not just kill Rand early on?  It seemed like that would ensure his win and not just provide a stalemate.

 

Similarly, why did the DO want to turn Rand to his side?  It seems like that would provide him with no advantage.

 

These are big questions that I am pretty upset were not somewhat clarified.

 

They were though. In one of the exchanges between Rand and the Dark Lord, Rand points out the fact that it's not about life or death to the DO, he only kills or doesn't kill depending on which causes more pain and chaos. Which is actually alluded to throughout the previous three or four books with the DO/Morridans' orders that Rand isn't to be killed. Since at that point Rand was ready, and indeed willing, to die... so in that regard keeping him alive causes more anguish and suffering.

 

 

 

Logical Conundrum. Rand needs to break the seals at a specific time. Done before or after, it's bad for him. Why doesn't Taim just bust the Seals at any random moment other than the instant it benefits Rand?

 

Well that's part of the while time paradox thing going on, where Rand has only been fighting the DO an hour maybe two, but for everyone else its' been days and weeks. Its' confusing but at that point the only real answer becomes to never break the seals, since as long as they hold the DO will still be on the verge of escaping and Rand can't properly seal the DO away if they're not broken. Also Taim is as petty and power hungry as the rest of the Forsaken at that point and so cares more about besting Demandred in power than he does properly helping the DO. In fact at that point almost every one of the Forsaken is acting on their own plans independent of the DO.

Edited by bustycops1987

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I guess this is as good a place as any to hammer this out. My only serious issue:

 

I like to think that creating rand's sweet swiss army knife required carnal knowledge of both saidin and saidar, otherwise there'd be a billion sa'angreal around as awesome as it. Furthermore, it was created for this specific purpose. 

Now, it is said fairly early on that the sword was made after the breaking. It was said early on as well that the sword magnified the taint. 

 

Here's the deal. How was it created to magnify the TRUE power without someone who could wield the true power, or at least, again, carnal knowledge of the true power. This gets into whether or not the taint is actually the true power, which isn't a fun thing to explain out or debate. 

 

Also, if it was made after the breaking, how did all of the forsaken know about it and love it as their own. Lanfear seemed to know about it's potential almost first hand. maybe the whole 'shortly before or after the breaking' thing was construed or misunderstood.

 

That's basically it. Also, why demandred's Sa'angreal is important enough to have a name - and the explaining of the bonding sa'angreal seemed kind of useless, aside from scaring taim. 

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Just wondering if anyone has put forward the question did Rand actually beat the DO. They were fighting around with the fabric of reality which to Rand were sometimes quite convincing. Rands pipe at the end has got me somewhat confused, both perrin and mat remark on how they are not tavern anymore and  I read the pipe situation along the lines of his usual tavern nature affecting the pattern for positive/rare results but if he isnt tavern anymore because why would he his job is done, maybe the DO has won trapped Rand in a reality of his making where Rand believes that the last battle is over and his job finished and the book finishes in Rands mind while the fighting is ongoing outside and the DO is moments away from escaping. why show possible futures to break Rand where a convincing present situation that allows Rand to get what hes always hoped deep down, to survive the last battle and defeat the DO will give the DO the opportunity to win. A grand deception is certainly not beyond the shadow.

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It's been said before, and I take it as such - I believe that with rand having existed outside the pattern, he gained an ultimate knowledge of everything. He's got his own power now. 

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Just wondering if anyone has put forward the question did Rand actually beat the DO. They were fighting around with the fabric of reality which to Rand were sometimes quite convincing. Rands pipe at the end has got me somewhat confused, both perrin and mat remark on how they are not tavern anymore and  I read the pipe situation along the lines of his usual tavern nature affecting the pattern for positive/rare results but if he isnt tavern anymore because why would he his job is done, maybe the DO has won trapped Rand in a reality of his making where Rand believes that the last battle is over and his job finished and the book finishes in Rands mind while the fighting is ongoing outside and the DO is moments away from escaping. why show possible futures to break Rand where a convincing present situation that allows Rand to get what hes always hoped deep down, to survive the last battle and defeat the DO will give the DO the opportunity to win. A grand deception is certainly not beyond the shadow.

 

I assumed Rand took the DO as Gai'shain instead of killing him.  Gaining more Ji than if he killed him. I don't think the DO is kind enough to win and let Rand off so easily ;)

 

 

I was kind of sad to not see any shocklances or other ter'angreal that were introduced in earlier books. I suppose they were more for world building anyway.

 

I did like the duels and tuon/min scenes where she becomes a truthspeaker, made me smile :)

Edited by doihavepotential

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I kind of wish the last book was written by Terez. I would probably have to spend weeks looking for a damn ending and then decrypting it, but no doubt it would be perfectly thought out. :wink:

LOL

 

Thanks, I had missed that. New sig. :)

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Hey all, First time, Long Time Yadda Yadda.

 

Just wondering as I can't seem to place it.

 

Rand never signed his own treaty right? As in he let everyone else sign on their own, for themselves, so it would be binding post LB?

 

Soooo that would mean no one from the Black Tower signed anything?

 

And no one noticed, demanded a provision or anything?

 

Please let me know when the Black Tower became bound by the treaty, if they did.

 

I know thinking about the implications is a pretty useless exercise, but hey old habits, if you have read these books…its what you do. (Although I am sad to say but these ones will probably die at some point.  :sad: )

 

-Bao

 

 

Sorry if this has been discussed, if it has i have so far not seen where

Edited by Baoandred

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Offhand, I'd guess that either Rand signed for the Black Tower before anyone arrived, or the treaty has provisions for emerging parties to sign on.

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So here's a question --

 

This series has more than a few moments where scenes are just epic, goosebumps, moments of sheer awesomeness. The Grave Is No Bar to My Call from Great Hunt I consider one. "Raise the Banner of Light!" moment at Dumai's Wells is another (for me.) Cleansing the Taint in Winter's Heart, and Perrin's creation of his hammer in ToM is another. (I suspect other readers have different examples and I'm probably forgetting more than one.)

 

How many of these moments are there in aMoL (if any?) I'm sure there are crazy-awesome moments, but are they the GOOSEBUMP kind?

 

 

In my opinion there are more of those moments in aMoL than the entire series combined.  Some within pages of each other.  It's . . . almost too much actually, overwhelming.

Yes, there are just too mutch, too "comprimated"  (sorry for my english) In the other books a realy Epic event did take ages to happen. Here they happen in every chapter. One of the biggest events, who should realy stand out, is Egweynes death. Flame of Tar Valon..now we all know why Armylin is called that but the Epic feel for it did vanish in all the other Epic events. We dont know what will happen with the rod and hand in that crystal pillar, the event feels uncomplete. Logain did try to do something with it but..just leave it there?

Edited by Casco

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I guess this is as good a place as any to hammer this out. My only serious issue:

 

I like to think that creating rand's sweet swiss army knife required carnal knowledge of both saidin and saidar, otherwise there'd be a billion sa'angreal around as awesome as it. Furthermore, it was created for this specific purpose. 

Now, it is said fairly early on that the sword was made after the breaking. It was said early on as well that the sword magnified the taint. 

 

Here's the deal. How was it created to magnify the TRUE power without someone who could wield the true power, or at least, again, carnal knowledge of the true power. This gets into whether or not the taint is actually the true power, which isn't a fun thing to explain out or debate. 

 

Also, if it was made after the breaking, how did all of the forsaken know about it and love it as their own. Lanfear seemed to know about it's potential almost first hand. maybe the whole 'shortly before or after the breaking' thing was construed or misunderstood.

 

That's basically it. Also, why demandred's Sa'angreal is important enough to have a name - and the explaining of the bonding sa'angreal seemed kind of useless, aside from scaring taim. 

Actually Callandor was made either during or just before the breaking.  As you'll recall from TSR when Rand is having the Aiel visions, in one of them he is at a council of remaining Aes Sedai and Callandor is there on the table along with the Horn of Valere and the Dragon's banner.  We also know from RJ that Callandor's flaw was a manufacturing defect.  It's ability to magnify the True Power was accidental (or caused by the Pattern), which is why even Moridin didn't know about it.  As for the magnifying the taint, well, the True Power and the taint aren't the same thing, but they come from the same source so magnifying the taint was a clue as to it's ability to magnify the True Power.  The Forsaken only wanted it to use as a Sa'Angreal (in the case of male Forsaken) or to keep it from the male Forsaken (in the case of female Forsaken).

 

Demandred's Sa'Angreal having a name isn't exactly unusual since all the mega-powerful Sa'Angreal have names- Callandor, the Choden Kal, Vora's Wand.  His bonding of it, while unheard of for a Sa'Angreal, is not unique since other items such as the Horn of Valere have similar effects.  The whole bonding thing could also have been a red herring by Demandred to keep Taim from using it against him.

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Well, just finished..first post here so I'll keep it short.

 

Maybe my brain is just burnt out due to lack of sleep but....where in the world was Shaidar Haran?

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Shaidar Haran was the burned out husk Rand saw when he entered Shayol Ghul. Basically, the DO was using a fades body to move around, however, in aMoL, the DO was powerful enough not to need a physical body. 

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I would almost have preferred instead of this weird black ball of... nothingness, Rand instead conversed with Shaidar Haran, who got more and more taller and more powerful until we then saw the black stuff explode out of him. Just seeing a major villain like that as a husk, while makes alot of sense, just didnt do the Superfade justice.

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Callandor was made during the War of Power; RJ said so.

i remembered when RJ said callandor defect was a manufacturing flaw. nice little lie there by rj.

 

it was delibrately made to flaw as i said in my prediction thread!

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Callandor was made during the War of Power; RJ said so.

i remembered when RJ said callandor defect was a manufacturing flaw. nice little lie there by rj.

 

it was delibrately made to flaw as i said in my prediction thread!

 

The part about it allowing you to draw too much OP/TP was a manufacturing defect.  The part about it working with the TP probably wasn't a defect.

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