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Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

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The Dark One was "...the Shadow in every man's mind..." so sayeth Lanfear, who should know. He isn't a deity, but a facet of humanity.

 

I'll stop there so as to not repeat my entirely unfounded view of the Wheel's metaphysics.

I would buy that, if not for the part where it's explicitly stated in this book that the pattern is both good and evil, and that the Great Lord is an outside influence trying to distort that.

 

Not to mention, the fact that Rand talks with it, debates with it, struggles with it, and is on the brink of destroying it, indicates that, if not a deity, at least it's some sort of conscious entity.

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The Dark One was "...the Shadow in every man's mind..." so sayeth Lanfear, who should know. He isn't a deity, but a facet of humanity.

 

I'll stop there so as to not repeat my entirely unfounded view of the Wheel's metaphysics.

I would buy that, if not for the part where it's explicitly stated in this book that the pattern is both good and evil, and that the Great Lord is an outside influence trying to distort that.

 

Not to mention, the fact that Rand talks with it, debates with it, struggles with it, and is on the brink of destroying it, indicates that, if not a deity, at least it's some sort of conscious entity.

And that a "facet of humanity" wasn't responsible for the unnatural weather, food spoiling in a matter of minutes, the Pattern itself unraveling...

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Nakomi as the Creator's avatar is dumb because it's deus ex machina, and on top of that it undermines the struggles of the mortals to save the world. Explanation that makes the most sense = Verin as a returned Hero. She was Aiel in a past life, apparently.

I could maybe agree with this if it weren't for the fact that she was seen in the waste when the horn wasn't blown.

Edited by skalors3

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I would buy that, if not for the part where it's explicitly stated in this book that the pattern is both good and evil, and that the Great Lord is an outside influence trying to distort that.

 

Not to mention, the fact that Rand talks with it, debates with it, struggles with it, and is on the brink of destroying it, indicates that, if not a deity, at least it's some sort of conscious entity.

Not quite. The Pattern is order and balance. Good and Evil are human constructs, a rock knows of neither. The Pattern is life, it balances Good and Evil, but is neither.

 

Is not Machin Shin a single entity compiled of many? Is not Shaisam an entity which constructs itself if corrupted souls? The Dark One is the same, a compilation of the small bits of Evil present in all men. The Dark One wanted Chaos to fray the Pattern, yet its complete destruction was only one of its potential goals, just as nihilism is only one "evil"* of many different evils.

 

*I don't think nihilism is evil in itself, but it certainly isn't good either.

Edited by Hadilmir

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Did anyone initially think that when Thom knifes Cadsuane in the back that he was doing it out of revenge for his nephew? That sequence was pretty cool for me.

The only thing I could think of during that scene was "If they could channel...why the hell didn't they just kill Thom instead of trying to disguise themselves and sneak by him?!"

Because Moraine would know. Or channeling would have been felt. They wanted surprise.

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Nakomi as the Creator's avatar is dumb because it's deus ex machina, and on top of that it undermines the struggles of the mortals to save the world. Explanation that makes the most sense = Verin as a returned Hero. She was Aiel in a past life, apparently.

I could maybe agree with this if it weren't for the fact that she was seen in the waste when the horn wasn't blown.

Well, part of the theory is that Avi was asleep and she was in TAR.

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The Verin=Nakomi has as much validity and support as the Nakomi=Creator, plus has the benefit of fitting the story RJ told better. Not to mention Nakomia and Verin act alike almost exactly. Verin aside, the Nakomi=HotH has a LOT more validity than Nakomi=Creator. This isn't a case of being unsatisfied with the ending. There's more support for our side than yours if just because half of our arguement is pretty much flat out obvious. As for "Who says heroes can intervene to save their people". There's a rule against involving themselves when they're in the Dream. But you know, Birgitte already kind of points out that you can ignore that rule if you feel like it. More over, we've seen now potentially two female heroes and a boat load of males. The males seems to follow the rules without issue (See Galad arguing with Birgitte). The Female we've seen seems to feel the rules are worth breaking when the prize for doing so is worth it. So again, precident is set. But again, let's look at the Creator vs Hero theory, we'll leave Verin out for the time being. Support for the Hero. Nakomi is in TAR with Aviendha, appears in the flesh after the horn is blown. BS has confirmed she is greatly skilled in TAR. Support for the Creator. She's an unidentified good guy. Detraction from the Hero. She wasn't present in TGH (though this is answered with the Verin angle). Detraction from the Creator. Multiple viewpoints both from within the series and from RJ pretty much state right out that the Creator does not take part in anything and is apart from this all.

 

 

When discussing this topic, many people focus on Nakomi's "mystic" interaction with Rand.  If Nakomi is the creator, her conversation fits perfectly.  However, what about her conversation with Avi?  Why would the creator give any sort of guidance about the future of the Aiel? Why would she care? if you really think about it, it does not fit at all with any comments we have heard about the creator's nature.

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Anyone else notice the nod to the fans with Dannil being wistful to Tam about not going with the other three when they left the 2Rs? He was originally supposed to be another ta'veren/member of the party in Jordan's original drafts.

 

Also question. What ever happens to Roedran and Dobraine? Where they even mentioned after the first FoM meeting?

Edited by Suttree

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Since reading the AMOL prologue I was leaning toward Nakomi being an Aiel hero of the Horn. She could be Verin at the same time although  I'm not sure how that's supposed to fit into the timeline. But given all the crazy  things that happened in AMOL I wouldn't rule out her being a Creator avatar even though it certainly would be a huge deus ex machina.  Can't really think of anything else even allowing really crazy things. A Jenn Aiel dreamwalker? she wouldn't be able to get into the tunnel because of the dreamspike. whatever happened to the dreamspike btw? Lanfear didn't disable it so it was there till the end.

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Also question. What ever happens to Roedran and Dobraine? Where they even mentioned after the first FoM meeting?

 

Nope and at first I thought the lack of them, especially Roedran and the Murandians, was a change that RJ did earlier in the series.

After some good arguments otherwise, I am starting to think Demandred was indeed involved there.

Roedran was being manipulated by Demandred but only lightly, to serve as a Red Herring, not just to us but to the rest of the Forsaken and to Rand himself.

With everything we know now about Demandred, I have little trouble believing he would set up such a ruse to keep eyes off of Shara.

 

There are just too many subtle clues pointing to Murandy to be only something for the reader. Sammael, Graendal and Rand himself all see Demandred's touch there or close to it.

Edited by Finnssss

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another question that's bugging me. How did Faile manifest herself as a falcon in TAR? she is not a dreamwalker.  This was different from TDR because then she wasn't using any ter'angreal this time around.

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another question that's bugging me. How did Faile manifest herself as a falcon in TAR? she is not a dreamwalker.  This was different from TDR because then she wasn't using any ter'angreal this time around.

 

I don't think she did.

I believe it was a need thing, much in the way the wonder twins found where the Bowl of the Winds was.

Edited by Finnssss

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Well said.  I think that of all the three books that were split, this had the most "meat" in it, and RJ's pieces seemed more pronounced here than in others.  You can compare this to a 200 year old Chateau Rothschild wine kept at the perfect temperature in a wine cellar and aged all that time with satisfying notes of completion and enough left unanswered that this will stick with you in your thoughts offering pondering and reflection for many more years to come.  I think that RJ and BS completed RJ's masterful tale that has left us hanging onto every last printed word these last few decades.  I'd offer a well done, but prefer "Superbly Finished.  Satisfying."

Pretentious much?  Wow, dude.

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I agree with Finnssss about Demandred. A proxy, a diversion. 

 

At least, I hope that's what it was. Otherwise, if it was just a nod to the readers and the Roedran theory, I thought that was low. It probably wasn't intended to seem that way at all, but it felt like it was a kick in the face to the Roedran-Demandred theory supporters. Although I thought the chances of him being Roedran were as good as any, I stayed away from supporting any theories about Demandred. Still, it felt like a dig aimed at fans. 

 

So I really do hope at least that what Finnsss suggests is correct. It certainly makes the most sense, and explains Sammael's words about proxies and actions (his soldiers looking north to Murandy) and Rand's reaction. 

 

Having said that, I thought Roedran was a hilarious character. "Talking the man out of his conquering ways or some such" some good lines in there for him. A shame he just disappeared after the meeting. I would have liked to see him fight Trollocs and the "nonsense" of the Last Battle. 

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Did anyone initially think that when Thom knifes Cadsuane in the back that he was doing it out of revenge for his nephew? That sequence was pretty cool for me.

The only thing I could think of during that scene was "If they could channel...why the hell didn't they just kill Thom instead of trying to disguise themselves and sneak by him?!"

Because Moraine would know. Or channeling would have been felt. They wanted surprise.

 

Or perhaps it came down to the simple fact that women cannot sense men channeling, the imposters thus had no idea if Thom was himself waiting to channel non-friendlies to smithereens, and those successful in marching up to the Pit reasonably determined that trickery was a better option than trying to singlehandedly force their way through the Dragon's last line of defense.  It wouldn't be unreasonable for a would be assassin to assume, after all, that the Dragon's last and best defender was a powerful channeler instead of a a knife-wielding gleeman with a keen eye for the way people strut.

Edited by CTGryffindor

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Okay.  So I just finished the book a few hours ago, and I've sat here reading comments and contemplating.

 

First thoughts.  Agreeing with what most of you are saying, some plots are completed, others disappear.  The latter is disappointing, but it happens.  Nothing we can do about it now.  I will say, as someone who has been reading the series for about ten years, the ending was an ending.  It might not have ended like we wanted it to be, but it did complete what we've been building up toward since "Rand Al'thor was cold" in the first chapter of tEotW.  I was happy how the last battle played out, but seriously, there could be an entire book just about what comes after and reading about how everyone dealt with everything.  A lot of us, in fact MOST of us, probably want to know what those things are.  I've seen some of you compare this to the epilogue of Harry Potter 7.  At least we get to see a little of grown-up Harry.  Sure, the intervening years would have been interesting, but there was also the sense of finality.  The villain was destroyed.  Life was boring and peaceful.  Harry chose a retarded name for his kid.  The end.  Unfortunately, we don't get that this time.  No more RAFO from Jordan like he did during his "Questions of the Week."  That's the major disappointment.

 

With that being said, the Last Battle was good.  Mat vs. Demandred was a cunning plotline, especially if you refer to the Guide and read about Demandred during the Age of Legends.  OF COURSE the Shadow would use its best general.  Defintely didn't see that coming, especially how all the other Forsaken in the series threw themselves at Rand or the girls, one by one, and died.  Most of them in single combat.  I expected more of the same, for some reason.  The different POVs were a fun way to read it.  The thing that separates this book from the others is that each previous book had some plot that got resolved at the end, usually with some major confrontation or rescue or something of the sort.  Most of this book was one huge battle.  I understand the need for all the extra room to incorporate the details, but then so much was left out at the same time.  This book felt like the end of another book, but then if you consider tGS and ToM to all be a part of aMoL as a whole, it had a more complete feel.  And obviously, if you consider the entire series one book, then this book is the last few chapters of said book.  The culmination of all the plot lines.  I don't know.  Jordan SAID he wanted to only make one more, even if it was 2,000 pages long.  No way.  At a minimum, there would have been two more after KoD.

 

The positives:  - Egwene.  As with almost all of the women in this series, most of her plots were boring.  She was interesting before the a'dam, and after her capture by the Tower Aes Sedai, but not really anything in between.  This book truly was her moment to shine.  I feel she really grew up over the past few books and she overcame a lot during this last one.  Her end made her a hero of the Light and a true Amyrlin, despite her young age and after falling so far and rising so tall.

- Gaul actually had some action.  He's been a great character since tDR.  He needed more action after tSR.

- Tam sparring with Rand.  That was the most bonding we've seen from them in the entire series.  It was good.

- Demandred.  His craftiness in battle.  His skill with the sword.  I mean, the Light sent three of its most skilled champions against him, each one better than the last.  It was great.  And his POV, like every Forsaken's in the series, was fun and interesting, especially when commenting about Mat.

- The development of the relationship between Androl and Pevara was definitely an interesting turn of events.  A Red Sister and an Asha'man.  Who would have thought?

- Moiraine's arrival.  'Nuff said.

- Hawkwing.  'Nuff said.

- When the Last Hunt appeared.  Epic.

- As with most of the series after the dagger is removed, Mat's dialogue brings the fun and humor that is perfrect for these books.  He fails to disappoint.

- The many reunions and farewells.

There are too many great moments to list, for now.  Let's focus on negatives.

 

The negatives:  -The largest being the lack of story after the Last Battle.

- Fain being almost meaningless, although I agree that a quick death instead of a long, drawn-out ordeal was better considering the nature of the Last Battle.  But still, considering how important of a villain he was in the first few books, one would think his role would have been more pivotal.

- I feel there were less POV moments from secondary characters who had bigger roles leading up until this book.  Maybe its my imagination.

- We all know there is a difference in the writing styles between the two authors.  The last three books moved at a faster pace, rarely having the same POV character in back-to-back chapters, while the ones written by Jordan could have six chapters in a row in one characters perspective.  Sometimes, that was boring.  Especially during the girls' chapters.  But the truth of it is, those long, drawn out chapters helped build a scene.  The last books moved at a faster pace because they lacked that quality.  Sometimes, it was a good thing.  Other times, though, there were scenes that needed the long build up and attention to detail that Jordan was so fond of.  It's a double-edged sword.

- Thom's main moment was him guarding the entrance.  Other than that, we barely hear from him.  He was such a big character before.  The first book had a chapter called "The Gleeman."  Come on.

- There were some reunions we missed, particularly Lan and Moiraine.

To be continued.

 

Okay.  Now for the part I'm sure I'll have to build on as I remember them.

The things that were missing:  -The Tinker's Song.  No one has even mentioned it in half the series!

- Moiraine's other two Aelfinn questions.  For that matter, her other boons from the Eelfinn after the bracelet.

- I guess we just have to assume Harine becomes Mistress of the Ships one day.

- Gaidal Cain.  Not a hint of who he became when he was reborn in tFoH.

- Thom's list of Red Sisters who gentled his nephew, Owyn.

- No more mention of Nynaeve Healing madness.  One would think is was an important thing to teach people.

- Was Nakomi the Aiel Rand saw at the end?  What a random character.  Who was she?

I'm too tired to think of more right now, but I'm sure I'll edit this post or reply to more as I remember them.

 

The ending of my favorite book series was bittersweet.  While I am glad to see the forces of light prevail, I'm deeply saddened to see it end.  This series has been a big influence on my life for ten years.  That's 40% of my existence!  Most of my questions were answered.  Most of the loose ends were tied up, but not all of them.  I guess there really are no endings to the turning of the Wheel.

Edited by blackwaltz4

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Ver

 

The Verin=Nakomi has as much validity and support as the Nakomi=Creator, plus has the benefit of fitting the story RJ told better. Not to mention Nakomia and Verin act alike almost exactly. Verin aside, the Nakomi=HotH has a LOT more validity than Nakomi=Creator. This isn't a case of being unsatisfied with the ending. There's more support for our side than yours if just because half of our arguement is pretty much flat out obvious. As for "Who says heroes can intervene to save their people". There's a rule against involving themselves when they're in the Dream. But you know, Birgitte already kind of points out that you can ignore that rule if you feel like it. More over, we've seen now potentially two female heroes and a boat load of males. The males seems to follow the rules without issue (See Galad arguing with Birgitte). The Female we've seen seems to feel the rules are worth breaking when the prize for doing so is worth it. So again, precident is set. But again, let's look at the Creator vs Hero theory, we'll leave Verin out for the time being. Support for the Hero. Nakomi is in TAR with Aviendha, appears in the flesh after the horn is blown. BS has confirmed she is greatly skilled in TAR. Support for the Creator. She's an unidentified good guy. Detraction from the Hero. She wasn't present in TGH (though this is answered with the Verin angle). Detraction from the Creator. Multiple viewpoints both from within the series and from RJ pretty much state right out that the Creator does not take part in anything and is apart from this all.

 

 

When discussing this topic, many people focus on Nakomi's "mystic" interaction with Rand.  If Nakomi is the creator, her conversation fits perfectly.  However, what about her conversation with Avi?  Why would the creator give any sort of guidance about the future of the Aiel? Why would she care?

 

A fair question.  Perhaps for the same reason he cared about Rand?  After sacrificing all but a "remnant of a remnant," just like Rand sacrificed for humanity in geneal, he felt a little reward was in order.  I'll admit that's weak sauce, and I'd never assumed Nakomi was the Creator based on her interaction with Avi in Towers of Midnight.  But the hints in A Memory of Light are too much to ignore and at least give me a reason for speculating that the Creator might meddle in affairs unrelated to the fight with the Dark One.  I see nothing, and I mean nothing, to indicate that Verin was a reincarnated Aiel.  Nor any reason to believe that she cared at all about the Aiel or whether Rand had a life at all post-defeating the Dark One. 

 

Verin was a Brown who cared about knowledge.  She wasn't some crusading Blue.  She wasn't Aiel.  And she care so little about Rand that she wasn't all that offended that Alanna bonded him against his will (she was more upset that Alanna didn't use her presumed bonding powers to influence Rand afterwards).  Those who want to argue that Nakomi was a Hero of the Horn who cared enough about the fate of the Aiel, and knew enough about their potential fate should such and such happen, might as well choose an actual dead Aiel. 

 

Go with Liah or something.  Heck, go with Tigraine.  There's someone who has reason to care enough about the Aiel (she was a Maiden) and Rand (she was his mother) to use Super Hero of the Horn powers (that have no basis in the rules Jordan set forth to govern the Horn Heros) to intervene on both's behalf.  Tigraine also proved herself quite heroic, what with becoming a Maiden after living the life of a pampered wetlander princess and then fighting and dying while pregnant to avenge Laman's Sin, so we can argue she was a Hero of the Horn too.  Silly?  Unsupported by anything in the novels?  Yup.  But so is the notion that Verin was an Aiel in a previous lifetime and, upon dying, took up a super interest in the fate of her previous incarnation's people's fate.

Edited by CTGryffindor

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Verin was a Brown who cared about knowledge. She wasn't some crusading Blue. She wasn't Aiel. And she care so little about Rand that she wasn't all that offended that Alanna bonded him against his will (she was more upset that Alanna didn't use her presumed bonding powers to influence Rand afterwards).

Wait what? She cared enough about Rand and his survival that she almost murders Cadsuane before she was sure of her intentions. She sisnt care about Alanna because she uickly realized how it couls be used to her advantage. While her quest started around knowledge it quickly morphed to a cause far greater than any Blue. Per Cads she is a "woman of many masks".

Edited by Suttree

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I'm having trouble understanding the Nakomi=Verin theory.  In order for that to be true, we have to have a way that Verin came back, since she was already dead. It's been suggested she is a Hero of the Horn, but we have no evidence of that since we don't explicitly see her identified in either Horn blow.  Moreover, even if she were a Hero, how did she interact with Aviendha? First, that would break the precepts. Second, no evidence suggests Aviendha was asleep or in TAR at their meeting.

 

Of the evidence in support, I don't see anything that suggests Nakomi has anything more in common than any old Wise One.


Unrelated, with the way Heroes are presented returning to the real world as children, it seems that it's strongly implied that they leave TAR just as soon as the child is born.  This, if true, means children in Randworld don't get souls until they are born (or at least some don't). I doubt the authors meant to do that.


Finally, I asked Brandon about Roedran/Murandians post FoM and he seemed to indicate that he forgot about them.

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For all those who hate Logain in this book: think about all the hell he has been through, plus the intense torture when they tried turning him.

 

For all those who support Nakomi = Creator avatar: why the hell would the Creator interfere with the Aiels future? Why not other nation?

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Verin was a Brown who cared about knowledge. She wasn't some crusading Blue. She wasn't Aiel. And she care so little about Rand that she wasn't all that offended that Alanna bonded him against his will (she was more upset that Alanna didn't use her presumed bonding powers to influence Rand afterwards).

Wait what? She cared enough about Rand and his survival that she almost murders Cadsuane before she was sure of her intentions. She sisnt care about Alanna because she uickly realized how it couls be used to her advantage.

 

 

She cared about the Dragon Reborn, not Rand 'al Thor.  She sought to ensure that Rand was ready to die at the right time for humanity, but otherwise expressed no concern about his personal well being.  Bonding without permission is suggested to be nearly tantamount to rape in the book, but when it happens to Rand, as you said, Verin was more concerned about how it could be used to her advantage vis a vis the Dragon Reborn than whether Rand 'al Thor the man should be released from an intimate bond involuntarily forced upon him. 

 

Maybe that's understandable, but it is not the type of thinking that would lead me to believe the thinker would later manifest an unique interest in Rand after the Dark One is defeated.

Edited by CTGryffindor

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One thing that seems to be forgotten about Aviendha. She had the twisted ring ter'angreal guys. Elayne gave it to her before she left for Arad Doman, after that we haven't seen the ring. All Aviendha had to do to enter TAR was sleep while the ring was touching her which can happen pretty easily by accident. That's how she entered TAR and that's how Nakomi/Verin talked to her. Things that happened in the scene are consistent with TAR as well.

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I thought Nakomi was one of the Aeil from Rands ancestors time, like when he went to Rhuedian.  I remember Aviendha asking about her and the Wise One saying it was a name she hadn't heard in a long time or wasn't used anymore, if I'm remembering correctly.  It's fitting, I think, that one of his ancestors came to assist the Aeil, to preserve them, and to help Rand, who she maybe related too.  I think this fits, for me at least, better than Verin (which i think is pretty crackpot honestly) or the Creator.  I think that at best the only thing we hear from the Creator is in EoTW and maybe Rand entering the DO's "lair", and even then I'm not 100% sure on that.  Just some thoughts.

 

 

After looking at the passages about Nakomi again I'm starting to rethink my 1st opinion a bit more.. It does seem more possible that Nakomi could be some kind of Creator incarnation or maybe a Green Man type entity.. Having to tend to nature an all.. hmmm I really hope Brandon can at least throw us a couple bones on this..

Edited by diane wheeler

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@CTGryffindor

 

 

First, it is not deus ex machina. Deus ex machina is a plot device whereby something that could not be solved by the previously explained rules, characters, and events is abruptly resolved through the intervention of heretofor unknown character or power. Nakomi-Creator is not invented to solve a seemingly impossible problem or conundrum in the plot. At the end of A Memory of Light, she does basically nothing but serve as a sounding board for Rand to expound a worldview too. Meanwhile, in Towers of Midnight, she helps INTRODUCE a problem that Avi will find in the Crystal Columns then solve on her own. No deus ex machina in either appearance.

 

Second, even if it was deus ex machina and therefore dumb in your opinion, that isn't an argument against it as the best interpretation. It does actually reinforce, however, my opinion that those who argue against Nakomi-Creator are doing so because they are unsatisfied with the storyline and thus seek to invent something else out of whole cloth like the Nakomi-Verin interpretation.

 

On a final note, let's assume Verin was a former Aiel AND a Hero of the Horn. Neither is grounded in canon. But let's assume. Where in the series is it indicated that a Hero of the Horn could intervene to ensure that descendents of her people followed the right path? Hawkwing lived for a thousand or more years in the Dream World without stepping in to right the wrongs of the Seanchan. Did he care less about his people than Verin? Or might the Heros not have the foresight or ability that you seek to ascribe to them? They aren't the Creator....

 

Although I don't necessarily take the steps as far as Nakomi=Hero of the Horn=Verin, you don't need to ascribe foresight to a hero to work this out. Assuming that the Heroes are the same through the ages (which the concept of the Dragon seems to imply that they are) then they remember (while in TAR as a Hero) those Ages. Chances are this sort of thing will have happened before.

 

On the other hand it means that Verin would have had to have died before meeting Avi, and the timing for this is really tight, although the timeline issues with tGS and ToM make it possible.

 

 

@Karistina

The mythological basis for Nakomi does not automatically make her Verin, dream ter'angreal or not. Bair says that Nakomi is an ancient name. If Verin were some kind of Hero - Nakomi Reborn, or what have you - the characters would know the name Nakomi as one of the Heroes of the Horn. She also could not have appeared to Aviendha before the horn was blown, even if the timing of her death was right.

 

 

 

If we're going to focus on providing entrance to T'A'R to come up with an identity for Nakomi, we should probably be looking further back. Who made the dream ter'angreal? Or further back than that... who taught the first Wise Ones how to Walk the Dream?

 

 

 

Ancient.

 

The far more likely explanation is that Avi was in TAR not that Nakomi was in the real world. Regardless of who Nakomi is the meeting almost certainly had to have taken place in TAR. Avi has the ring terangreal, so doesn't need to channel to enter TAR, so it's possible that she entered TAR without knowing. And I think the prescrips about heroes meeting regular people is that they can, if the regular person doesn't know who or what or where they're meeting (or something like that). Explains Nakomis evasion on where she's from.

 

 

@Suttree

Nakomi could have entered Avi's dream easily amongst other options. Not sure what the hang up is?

 

Avi has the dream ter'angreal, seems an easier explanation - especially as we have no knowledge (that I can think of) that a Hero of the Horn can enter somebodies Dream - we know that Dreamwalkers can, I'm pretty sure that Perrin can't, so their is a difference between entering TAR and entering a dream. In Avis dream Nakomi would be at her mercy - Eg gets caught up in Rhuarc and (seperately) in Gawyns dream and can't leave until they wake, yet Nakomi leaves Avis without any problem.

 

@dreadlord

She doesn't have to enter the dream world, she just has to be asleep, with Nakomi being able to enter Aviendha's dream with some measure of control over it.

 

 

 

We have lots of evidence of that happening.

 

We have no evidence that a dreamwalker can control someone elses dream while in it - we have lots of evidence that non experienced people that know nothing (or very little) of the dream can control and influence dreamers in the non-dreamers dream (Eg vs. Gawyn and Rhuarc, also Eg is very wary of entering Elaynes and Nyns dreams as she doesn't want to know how they (Nyn in particular) view her). As I said, Avi has the dream ter'angreal.

 

 

 

 

OK so Cem Omal beat me to mentioning the ring ter'angreal - but I'm not going to delete my post now.

 

James Tham

Was Carlinya's black raven tattoos explained? Re-reading it a 2nd time, can't seem to find anything about it.

 

I believe concensus has it that the tattoo relates to being killed by the Black Ajah, perhaps specifically Alviarin (due to the mark that Shadar Haran(sp?) gave her.

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