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Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

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The exchange between Hend the Striker and Mat... anyone else thinks it's the way Mat's narrative usually goes? He always says he's not going to be a hero but he is always there in the end. When I was reading that scene, I thought it only solidified that Mat was bound to the Horn. Maybe not telling a spun-out Hero about what he/she really is one of their precepts. Because I really think Mat is a HotH. By extension, same goes for Perrin of course.

I really think he isn't. He has the persoanlity that screams "I'll turn the offer down."

Didn't RJ say the Heroes are not offered but are chosen to be bound to the Pattern, though?

 

 

The exchange between Hend the Striker and Mat... anyone else thinks it's the way Mat's narrative usually goes? He always says he's not going to be a hero but he is always there in the end. When I was reading that scene, I thought it only solidified that Mat was bound to the Horn. Maybe not telling a spun-out Hero about what he/she really is one of their precepts. Because I really think Mat is a HotH. By extension, same goes for Perrin of course.

 

I thought it was written well and captured Mat's voice, but the mere act of asking that question broke the narrative and was extremely out of character.  It was a clear attempt by the author to answer a question that we all wanted to know about Mat.  I feel like that question could have been answered in other ways that flowed better with the story.  What if Herid had clapped Mat on the back and said maybe he'll be chosen to be bound to the Horn if he keeps it up?

Well, Brandon's never really been good at keeping the 4th wall. There are a lot of winks to the reader in the book. And this was one of them, I think he told us Mat's a Hero. But he told us in Mat's "voice".

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Just read Brandon's latest blog and he confirms that the "ending" RJ wrote was only the Epilogue.  I'm sure he left much more in the way of notes, and Brandon does say he worked on some other scenes...but the rest was all Brandons writing.  That includes the DO vs Rand and their battle.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/blog/1136/Its-finally-out

I find that odd as the ending clearly "tasted" like Rj writing but the persona of Rand was a little off to me . I would have tough the ending of the fight between the Do and Rand and the hero's of the horn apparition  would have been wrote by him

Edited by nolirion

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Question: What about the outriggers? (The sequel trilogy to the Wheel of Time series that Robert Jordan had planned to write.)

Answer: It's not going to happen. Harriet and I are both firm on this. Robert Jordan wouldn't have wanted it to happen. He said that he wanted the series to be finished, but he did not want anything more. (He was even uncomfortable with the idea of someone like myself finishing the series.)

Anyone else find this weird? RJ had planned to write it, but they think he wouldn't have wanted it written. What's that about?

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Question: What about the outriggers? (The sequel trilogy to the Wheel of Time series that Robert Jordan had planned to write.)

Answer: It's not going to happen. Harriet and I are both firm on this. Robert Jordan wouldn't have wanted it to happen. He said that he wanted the series to be finished, but he did not want anything more. (He was even uncomfortable with the idea of someone like myself finishing the series.)

Anyone else find this weird? RJ had planned to write it, but they think he wouldn't have wanted it written. What's that about?

I feel , and it's only my feeling perhaps even warped by what I want , that RJ wrote the epilogue as an opening to the outriggers . But didn't have the opportunity to make them a reality .

Edited by nolirion

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Just read Brandon's latest blog and he confirms that the "ending" RJ wrote was only the Epilogue.  I'm sure he left much more in the way of notes, and Brandon does say he worked on some other scenes...but the rest was all Brandons writing.  That includes the DO vs Rand and their battle.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/blog/1136/Its-finally-out

Well, its clear RJ wrote the entire last few chapters. It had his feel. Plus its been confirmed MANY times prior.

Last few chapters indeed. *chuckle*

 

 

 

Question: What about the outriggers? (The sequel trilogy to the Wheel of Time series that Robert Jordan had planned to write.)

Answer: It's not going to happen. Harriet and I are both firm on this. Robert Jordan wouldn't have wanted it to happen. He said that he wanted the series to be finished, but he did not want anything more. (He was even uncomfortable with the idea of someone like myself finishing the series.)

Anyone else find this weird? RJ had planned to write it, but they think he wouldn't have wanted it written. What's that about?

Not in the slightest. RJ was very clear that he was totally against any type of "shared world" scenario. It wasn't until the very end he even allowed the books to be finished. Added to that is the fact the the notes for AMoL were far less than originally thought. The notes for the Outriggers are not even a fraction of that. It would essentially be someone else creating stores in his world and would totally be against his wishes.

Edited by Suttree

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Just read Brandon's latest blog and he confirms that the "ending" RJ wrote was only the Epilogue.  I'm sure he left much more in the way of notes, and Brandon does say he worked on some other scenes...but the rest was all Brandons writing.  That includes the DO vs Rand and their battle.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/blog/1136/Its-finally-out

Well, its clear RJ wrote the entire last few chapters. It had his feel. Plus its been confirmed MANY times prior.

Last few chapters indeed. *chuckle*

 

 

 

 

Question: What about the outriggers? (The sequel trilogy to the Wheel of Time series that Robert Jordan had planned to write.)

Answer: It's not going to happen. Harriet and I are both firm on this. Robert Jordan wouldn't have wanted it to happen. He said that he wanted the series to be finished, but he did not want anything more. (He was even uncomfortable with the idea of someone like myself finishing the series.)

Anyone else find this weird? RJ had planned to write it, but they think he wouldn't have wanted it written. What's that about?
Not in the slightest. RJ was very clear that he was totally against any type of "shared world" scenario. It wasn't until the very end he even allowed the books to be finished. Added to that is the fact the the notes for AMoL were far less than originally thought. The notes for the Outriggers are not even a fraction of that. It would essentially be someone else creating stores in his world and would totally be against his wishes.

 

lol why am i not suprised.

 

begs the question. was the decision to split amol into three books the greatest money squeezing tactic ever done by a publisher and author management team? Judging by they keep telling us that the notes RJ left were not that extensive i am very suprised to see three books. 3 books with 60 percent filler and garbage.

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On Moiraine's return....  I think that she was pretty significant in the Dragon's Summit at the Fields of Mellior.   Rand's pretty much got the decision in the bag, until Egwene stops the momentum, and then Moiraine enters and pretty much takes the thing over.  She does this by reminding them of the prophecies but she also seems to resolve Egwene's big sticking point in a way that works for both Rand and Egwene.

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Yes, it was small yet large at the same time. But it was treated as if it was inconsequential. Just "oh there's Alanna...oh hey she's bleeding and dying...weird."

 

Let's consider the following that could have and should have been addressed regarding the Alanna situation:

 

- Rand would have felt her get injured. Why was there no mention or comment of this?

 

- Rand would have sensed where she was. Why didn't he mention, think, or comment about Alanna being in The Pit of Doom with him when he was entering?

 

Now imagine that both of the above were addressed. Just a few sentences added and suddenly the Alanna situation makes a lot more sense and feels a lot more organic within the story.

I think Rands side split open because she was stabbed in the side.

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The more I read the complaints the more I feel we're all being to fussy and it was a good book and a good ending.  Maybe we're just upset that it's all over now.

 

I agree that Demandred's 3 duels is stretching plausibility and I did wonder why he doesn't know that Rand would be at Shayol Ghul since thats the Dragons foretold place, but he was awesome and did so much damage.  So did Graendal, she was nicely done too.  Moghedien was a disappointment but then she's always been useless imo, throughout the whole series so I didn't expect much.  People have complained about Lanfear but what she was up to seems entirely like how Lanfear has always behaved and very much in character.  Oh and I really liked Egwene.  Still don't understand the hatred for her.  My big fat gripe is Padan Fain above all other things.  

 

I'm left curious about a lot of things but I tentatively posit that Birgitte might be one of Elayne's babies... wacky I know but with Elayne all but due and Dead Hero Birgitte saying she's about to be reborn soon it kinda stuck out a bit.  If Olver is Gaidal (and I'm still not convinced here) then timeline doesn't matter so much because Gaidal disappeared off screen way after Olver was born.  So it's possible for a newborn baby to be infused with Birgitte's soul.

 

Anyway, it was a great book to me and I think it's my third favourite after the great hunt and shadow rising.  Good ending.

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Just read Brandon's latest blog and he confirms that the "ending" RJ wrote was only the Epilogue. I'm sure he left much more in the way of notes, and Brandon does say he worked on some other scenes...but the rest was all Brandons writing. That includes the DO vs Rand and their battle.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/blog/1136/Its-finally-out

Well, its clear RJ wrote the entire last few chapters. It had his feel. Plus its been confirmed MANY times prior.

Last few chapters indeed. *chuckle*

 

 

 

 

 

Question: What about the outriggers? (The sequel trilogy to the Wheel of Time series that Robert Jordan had planned to write.)

Answer: It's not going to happen. Harriet and I are both firm on this. Robert Jordan wouldn't have wanted it to happen. He said that he wanted the series to be finished, but he did not want anything more. (He was even uncomfortable with the idea of someone like myself finishing the series.)

Anyone else find this weird? RJ had planned to write it, but they think he wouldn't have wanted it written. What's that about?
Not in the slightest. RJ was very clear that he was totally against any type of "shared world" scenario. It wasn't until the very end he even allowed the books to be finished. Added to that is the fact the the notes for AMoL were far less than originally thought. The notes for the Outriggers are not even a fraction of that. It would essentially be someone else creating stores in his world and would totally be against his wishes.

lol why am i not suprised.

 

begs the question. was the decision to split amol into three books the greatest money squeezing tactic ever done by a publisher and author management team? Judging by they keep telling us that the notes RJ left were not that extensive i am very suprised to see three books. 3 books with 60 percent filler and garbage.

While I don't think this the place for that comment, I don't see how this series could have been done in less than 2000 pages

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The more I read the complaints the more I feel we're all being to fussy and it was a good book and a good ending. Maybe we're just upset that it's all over now.

 

I agree that Demandred's 3 duels is stretching plausibility and I did wonder why he doesn't know that Rand would be at Shayol Ghul since thats the Dragons foretold place, but he was awesome and did so much damage. So did Graendal, she was nicely done too. Moghedien was a disappointment but then she's always been useless imo, throughout the whole series so I didn't expect much. People have complained about Lanfear but what she was up to seems entirely like how Lanfear has always behaved and very much in character. Oh and I really liked Egwene. Still don't understand the hatred for her. My big fat gripe is Padan Fain above all other things.

 

I'm left curious about a lot of things but I tentatively posit that Birgitte might be one of Elayne's babies... wacky I know but with Elayne all but due and Dead Hero Birgitte saying she's about to be reborn soon it kinda stuck out a bit. If Olver is Gaidal (and I'm still not convinced here) then timeline doesn't matter so much because Gaidal disappeared off screen way after Olver was born. So it's possible for a newborn baby to be infused with Birgitte's soul.

 

Anyway, it was a great book to me and I think it's my third favourite after the great hunt and shadow rising. Good ending.

This. Perfect.

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So.....now that it's all over, how does all the theory fit into the ending?

 

Why did the DO not just kill Rand early on?  It seemed like that would ensure his win and not just provide a stalemate.

 

Similarly, why did the DO want to turn Rand to his side?  It seems like that would provide him with no advantage.

 

These are big questions that I am pretty upset were not somewhat clarified.

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Oh yes and I liked the struggle between Rand and the DO.  I don't get how else you can do a battle between an intangible force and a human avatar of another intangible force.  Have them throw massive weaves at each other levelling creation?  Fight among the stars?  

 

It came down to the purpose of the DO and Creator and the role of humanity.  Showing each other versions of reality, torturing and tormenting each other with versions of reality more like while arguing over the effects on man and the DO seemed right to me.  I  wasn't happy with the insignicant bug bit, that was unnecessary grandstanding and corny but it didn't annoy me that much.  Rand got to do the confrontation but with Ishamael, whom he kept calling Elan.  I liked that touch too, quite poignant.


This was a good conclusion to the series.  The major themes of the wheel, the pattern and balance were all addressed.   

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Just read Brandon's latest blog and he confirms that the "ending" RJ wrote was only the Epilogue.  I'm sure he left much more in the way of notes, and Brandon does say he worked on some other scenes...but the rest was all Brandons writing.  That includes the DO vs Rand and their battle.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/blog/1136/Its-finally-out

Brandon's also said before that the Isam scene in the prologue was written by RJ. And in an interview for City Pages in Minneapolis he said "That last chapter was his chapter—there were only minor tweaks that I put in; there's one scene that I added from a certain character's viewpoint. But basically, that whole ending sequence, the last chapter and the epilogue, are Robert Jordan's."

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It was a good book.  There was too much info during the last battle.  There were so many climatic moments that they lost their impact.  Much like Rand in TGS, it was sort of like piling more rocks on someone after they had been crushed. 

 

I don't want to get into what happened to individual characters, becuase these characters were like old friends who I cared about in different ways.  When various characters didn't end they way I wanted them to, I got angry.  

 

But I am upset about the death of Egwene.  It was a cheap death.  I wanted her to grow as a person and accept Rand, and become a great leader.  Plus, with her gone, I really fear for the alliance of Channelers that she envisioned.  I wanted her, and all the original 5 Two Rivers kids, to have "happy" endings.  Frankly, I expect that.  I really hate it when authors kill off main characters just to prove they will or can or whatever.  These people gave to much to save the world.  Is it too much to ask that these people get some happy years after that?  No.  No it isn't.

 

What really did upset me was the lack of closure.  There are two reasons for this.

 

1. Possibility of sequels.  I know what they said about them not happening.  I also know what the state of book publishing is, and I know that Tor won't just walk away from a valuable property (Dune, LOTR just to name a few).  There are 3-4 outrigger or sequel novels just begging to be written.  BEGGING FOR IT.  I really feal that Tor won't just walk away from the million+ book sales that potentially exist.  It would be far too easy for the powers to be to claim that RJ left notes, or discussed plotlines, for said novels.  Especially since the outrigger novels about Mat would be HUGELY popular.  That could tie in Rand, Perrin, Min, etc.  I know what RJ's widow said, and I also know that Tor's ability to keep writing Zeroes on a check can make anyone have an extended blackout.  This is how they got Bill Murray to make two Garfeild movies.

 

2.  RJ's Death.  He kept extending the series.  These final books were written from an outline.  Had he lived, his publisher would have brow beaten him into a better denoument.  Just from a business prospective.  Plus, like Harry Potter, I think RJ would have tied up plot lines to ensure no one else ever would have the opportunity to alter the world he created (excepting him of course).  I am sure he was frantically writing as the end approached, and he is to be commended for making sure the fans had his vision of the end of the story.  I just think, that with time, this final vision would have evolved.  I am sure these last 3 books would have turned into 4-5 additional books. Plus a more extensive epilogue.  BS wasn't going to add a lot to the end, knowing how devisive that would be for the fanbase.  RJ could have done it with the world he created, BS couldn't.

 

So yeah, the end was meh.  There was too much good stuff in this book, which isn't a good thing in and of itself.  Key characters got the short shrift, new characters were given a lot (too much) time.  It happens.  Ending a series this complex is, for all intents and purposes, impossible.  RJ's time in the wilderness post CoS simply set up far too much to be easily wrapped up.  RJ could have done it, but he didn't get the chance.

 

I did like how Cadsuane realized that the Shadow was playing the long game.  That the Shadow's real moves weren't with armies or grand gestures.  The Shadow's real moves are tiny gestures that don't make sense until the end.  Little things that fracture channelers or remove key players.  The whispered rumor that brings down a Royal line 3 centuries later.  With that she realized that the Shadow is always playing a repeating game.  It leaves plots in play that will help it in the future should it lose THIS "Last Battle."  Hopefully that helps her going forward.

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I'm just finishing the prologue now, but being the impatient person that I am (and that I'm at work and can't just go read it) I couldn't help but browse this forum.

 

The main thing that I don't get is the dislike for things that happened... or this should have happened or that... from the good folks on this boards. I almost wonder if the "it's cool to hate" has taken over a bit. Many of the things that people are taking issue to (outside of Egwene) are things that have been foreshadowed for some time. Heck even the very last line of the last book is forshadowed somewhat by the first first line of the first book: There are neither beginnings or endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning... just like this was AN ENDING.

 

I think we tend to analyze things a little too much, especially when considering opinions about what "should" have happened. It's one of the things that has always made the WoT so good for me. Characters don't always do what they should. They make mistakes, they make bad decisions, they ignore the obvious, just like people do in real life every day.

 

So while I have spoiled some things for myself about what has happened, I will enjoy the ride of getting there to find out the hows, just like I have with each book in this series which I feel will always be my favorite. I feel like no matter what happened in the story I will have been left wanting more. More of the characters, more of the story, and more theories to ponder.

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1. Possibility of sequels.  I know what they said about them not happening.  I also know what the state of book publishing is, and I know that Tor won't just walk away from a valuable property (Dune, LOTR just to name a few).  There are 3-4 outrigger or sequel novels just begging to be written.  BEGGING FOR IT.  I really feal that Tor won't just walk away from the million+ book sales that potentially exist.  It would be far too easy for the powers to be to claim that RJ left notes, or discussed plotlines, for said novels.  Especially since the outrigger novels about Mat would be HUGELY popular.

Except we have already been told that  those notes don't exist. It essentially would be other writeres creating stories in RJ's world. He was VERY much against any sort of "shared world" scenario(he was the creator), only allowing AMoL to be finished after a change of heart. It's Harriet's decision not Tor's, and it's very clear that it would be against RJ's wishes. Just a terrible idea all around.

 

2.  RJ's Death.  He kept extending the series.  These final books were written from an outline.  Had he lived, his publisher would have brow beaten him into a better denoument.  Just from a business prospective.  Plus, like Harry Potter, I think RJ would have tied up plot lines to ensure no one else ever would have the opportunity to alter the world he created (excepting him of course).  I am sure he was frantically writing as the end approached, and he is to be commended for making sure the fans had his vision of the end of the story.  I just think, that with time, this final vision would have evolved.  I am sure these last 3 books would have turned into 4-5 additional books. Plus a more extensive epilogue.  BS wasn't going to add a lot to the end, knowing how devisive that would be for the fanbase.  RJ could have done it with the world he created, BS couldn't.

 

On the contrary, RJ almost certainly would have done it in one book(as he claimed) split up into to say two WH sized volumes. There was an appaling amount of filler in these last three books and the story suffered greatly due to how much they had to stretch out once it was split. Keep in mind even Brandon was against splitting it into 3 and was over ruled.

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It is just my opinion. Explaining or justifying one's opinion can sometimes be a tiring and futile undertaking...

 

It might be simpler to just think of it this way: I hate Rand and I wanted him to die. I'm disappointed that he didn't. I can't say why or when I started to hate Rand... I think it was around the time the harem attached themselves onto him.

 

While I appreciate at this point in the series the story must be plot driven, I can't help but feel the character development and interaction was very thin. It would have driven the nail home for me with much more force. I suppose it isn't too disappointing that Rand lived after all, I'm not so filled with spite that I won't get over it. Egwene's death was just heartbreaking. I never even liked her but that scene broke me just a little bit.

 

What did you think about the book as a whole? Rand's new lease on life aside.

 

 

 

 

Venaliter I agree with you wholeheartedly. I find it be an astounding farce. I can't believe the foundations of this book came from the same person who penned EotW.

 

I hope Rand falls into a bog and dies without a soul in sight.

Exactly how is it a farce? Why should Rand have died? Not begrudging you your opinion, but this is a discussion form. Personally I have no problem with the way things worked out, so I'm curious what you feel was wrong or should have been different.
Edited by Therese Sedai

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But I am upset about the death of Egwene.  It was a cheap death.  I wanted her to grow as a person and accept Rand, and become a great leader.  Plus, with her gone, I really fear for the alliance of Channelers that she envisioned.  I wanted her, and all the original 5 Two Rivers kids, to have "happy" endings.  Frankly, I expect that.  I really hate it when authors kill off main characters just to prove they will or can or whatever.  These people gave to much to save the world.  Is it too much to ask that these people get some happy years after that?  No.  No it isn't.

Sorry, but how is it that saving the Pattern from imminent destruction is a cheap death? As for Rand and Egwene co-leading, it was never going to happen. For one thing, Rand has no interest in leading. He's always wanted a simple life while Egwene was the ambitious one. For another, they are like saidin and saidar. They work with and against each other, they always have. I would've liked Rand to go out in a blaze of glory, too. I'm glad for Egwene. I don't like her but it was a good end for her.

Edited by Cem Önal

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The many minor unanswered questions which took away (slightly) from this story would all be forgotten if....

Rand had ridden away on Bela.

 

Agree?

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But I am upset about the death of Egwene.  It was a cheap death.  I wanted her to grow as a person and accept Rand, and become a great leader.  Plus, with her gone, I really fear for the alliance of Channelers that she envisioned.  I wanted her, and all the original 5 Two Rivers kids, to have "happy" endings.  Frankly, I expect that.  I really hate it when authors kill off main characters just to prove they will or can or whatever.  These people gave to much to save the world.  Is it too much to ask that these people get some happy years after that?  No.  No it isn't.

Sorry, but how is it that saving the Pattern from imminent destruction is a cheap death? As for Rand and Egwene co-leading, it was never going to happen. For one thing, Rand has no interest in leading. He's always wanted a simple life while Egwene was the ambitious one. For another, they are like saidin and saidar. They work with and against each other, they always have. I would've liked Rand to go out in a blaze of glory, too. I'm glad for Egwene. I don't like her but it was a good end for her.

She burned herself out.  One of the strongest and best female channelers of the age.  What she was doing was important.  But it was the last battle.  Every action was "important."  And she fries herself by channeling too much.  It just sort of seemed like BS was bowing to fan pressure to give Egwene her comeupance. 

 

Like I said, I really like happy endings.  I wanted to see (or picture) the meeting back in Emond's Field where 4 of the most powerful and influential people in the world were thrown back into the roles they had as kids.  Mat, Rand, Perrin, and Egwene getting bullied on the Gree as Egwene tried to explain her marriage and why she didn't wait the time or whatever.  Rand and his "marriage."  In my mind this whole thing ended with Rand dropping on on his boys and taking them for a brew half way across the world while their ladies complained about them.  Light hearted and what not.

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I have to agree. As deaths go, hers was a pretty good one made all the better by the fact I was totally blindsided by it. My expectation was that she would go on to rule as the greatest Amyrlin that ever was... Now I feel her legacy will crumble and the only lasting part of it will be her sacrifice.

 

 

 

 

But I am upset about the death of Egwene. It was a cheap death. I wanted her to grow as a person and accept Rand, and become a great leader. Plus, with her gone, I really fear for the alliance of Channelers that she envisioned. I wanted her, and all the original 5 Two Rivers kids, to have "happy" endings. Frankly, I expect that. I really hate it when authors kill off main characters just to prove they will or can or whatever. These people gave to much to save the world. Is it too much to ask that these people get some happy years after that? No. No it isn't.

Sorry, but how is it that saving the Pattern from imminent destruction is a cheap death? As for Rand and Egwene co-leading, it was never going to happen. For one thing, Rand has no interest in leading. He's always wanted a simple life while Egwene was the ambitious one. For another, they are like saidin and saidar. They work with and against each other, they always have. I would've liked Rand to go out in a blaze of glory, too. I'm glad for Egwene. I don't like her but it was a good end for her.
Edited by Therese Sedai

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