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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.


Luckers
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I just wanted to say I found Annoura's sacrifice to be unexpectedly moving. In a book filled with offhand Aes Sedai heroics, hers was very human. I wish the atmosphere of that moment had been present more on the book.

What did she do that was so moving? I always figured she was BA!

She sees Galad on the field, dying. Though she knows it will burn her out, she makes a gateway to the hospital at Mayene, saving Galad's life. She explains to Berelain that she felt she owed it to her, because of their friendship.

Edited by fionwe1987
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Do some named Aes Sedai that are not major characters (like the Sitters) die?

 

Many of them. Romanda gets killed in an heartbeat -- it's literally a blink-and-you'll-miss-it moment. Siuan at least gets a paragraph or so when she dies. 

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Do some named Aes Sedai that are not major characters (like the Sitters) die?

Romanda and Doesine are the only two that come to mind. It Its implied Lelaine had an off screen death.

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That is some incredible pace to the novel, essentially a none stop battle.

 

What beasts Rand, Lan, Perrin, Demandred, Egwene and Grandael. BEASTS.

 

Utter weaklings/dissapointments: Shai'tan, Logain, Moridin, Fain and Lanfear. Logain? LOL, truly the most pathetic of the lot, he was a complete useless character, Androl(sp?) would have been a much better leader. 

 

Shai'tan, what a weak, pathetic being, the DR should have taken pity on it and destroyed it. 

 

The Power of the DR at one point > Creator or Shai'tan.  He had that insect/Shai'tan at the palm of his hand, ready to utterly destroy it. I don't why Shai'tan would ever want its prison drilled, just asking for punishment and possible utter destruction. 

 

I knew that the DR has moved well beyond LTT, but even I was surprised...at the end the book bending reality like it was TAR to light his pipe.  Oh yeah. 

 

I was pleasantly surprised that Lan had such a pivotal part in the book. 

 

Lan/greatest blademaster and fighter ever destroying Demandred, epic, holding his head up for the Shadowspawn army to see.  I can't believe he defeated 2 Myddrraal at once in about 5 seconds! Even the Fades were shocked! 4 Myddraal at once may not be beyond him, if Lan was not exhausted. 

 

Poor Galad and Gawyn (almost shed a tear for this character and with 3 rings, Demandred toyed with him, man vs. baby, same Gawyn that took out 6 Sharans at once with 1 ring without a scratch!)  Demandred schooled Logain as well.

 

Demandred was THE wrecking machine for the Shadow and if not for Lan, the Forces of the Light would have lost.

 

Perrin, BEAST of TAR, greatest at TAR ever, finally when he let go (like Superman) he took out Slayer with EASE, broke Lanfear's neck like a twig.  Schooled Grandael in TAR very very easily, however he let her escape.

 

Etc. 

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Do some named Aes Sedai that are not major characters (like the Sitters) die?

 

Romanda is incinerated by dozens of Sharan channelers hitting her at once. Doesine is beheaded, IIRC. Alanna is stabbed, almost bleeds out, is Healed by Nyaneve, and then killed by a thrown knife to the chest from Moridin. Annoura also dies as mentioned above. Sarene is Compelled by Graendal and appears to be dead (she's last seen collapsing with 'glassy eyes' as Cadsuane blows the living crap out of the area around Graendal). Siuan dies. Leane almost dies but just about survives a direct meeting with Demandred. Beldeine and her Asha'man, Karldin, die together on the battlefield. I thought Yukiri was toast when Mat's command tent was attacked as she disappears in the resulting chaos, but reappears at the end as one of the Aes Sedai 'recruiting' Cadsuane as Amyrlin.

 

Based on the numbers given, apparently 200 Aes Sedai - a fifth of the Tower - is wiped out in Kandor in the initial battle with the Sharans, which is a total catastrophe. They also suffer major losses at the Last Battle itself. I wouldn't be surprised if only a third of the Tower survived (note: not including the hundreds or thousands of new Accepted and novices, who play no role in the battle).

 

EDIT: I had to double-check who Sarene was in WoT Wiki, and this brought up the interesting fact that Alanna's disappearance from the Stone of Tear with no-one detecting channelling is a minor subplot in Towers of Midnight.

Edited by Werthead
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Do some named Aes Sedai that are not major characters (like the Sitters) die?

 

Romanda is incinerated by dozens of Sharan channelers hitting her at once. Doesine is beheaded, IIRC. Alanna is stabbed, almost bleeds out, is Healed by Nyaneve, and then killed by a thrown knife to the chest from Moridin. Annoura also dies as mentioned above. Sarene is Compelled by Graendal and appears to be dead (she's last seen collapsing with 'glassy eyes' as Cadsuane blows the living crap out of the area around Graendal). Siuan dies. Leane almost dies but just about survives a direct meeting with Demandred. I thought Yukiri was toast when Mat's command tent was attacked as she disappears in the resulting chaos, but reappears at the end as one of the Aes Sedai 'recruiting' Cadsuane as Amyrlin.

 

Based on the numbers given, apparently 200 Aes Sedai - a fifth of the Tower - is wiped out in Kandor in the initial battle with the Sharans, which is a total catastrophe. They also suffer major losses at the Last Battle itself. I wouldn't be surprised if only a third of the Tower survived (note: not including the hundreds or thousands of new Accepted and novices, who play no role in the battle).

 

EDIT: I had to double-check who Sarene was in WoT Wiki, and this brought up the interesting fact that Alanna's disappearance from the Stone of Tear with no-one detecting channelling is a minor subplot in Towers of Midnight.

 

Nice to hear that the good guys don`t have it that easy! 

 

Do Ashaman suffer similar losses as Aes Sedai? In that scene when Cadsuane is approached by the Sitters, do they mention the Ashaman issues?

Edited by Lord Melkor
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Sarene is Compelled by Graendal and appears to be dead (she's last seen collapsing with 'glassy eyes' as Cadsuane blows the living crap out of the area around Graendal).

 

I figured Sarene survived since she was supposed to have a passionate love affair with someone, according to Min. I suppose it could have happened offscreen at some point.

 

"Images and auras; a tempestuous love affair, of all things! The woman was ice, however beautiful. And there was nothing useful in knowing some man would melt her!" -TPoD

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Based on the numbers given, apparently 200 Aes Sedai - a fifth of the Tower - is wiped out in Kandor in the initial battle with the Sharans, which is a total catastrophe. They also suffer major losses at the Last Battle itself. I wouldn't be surprised if only a third of the Tower survived (note: not including the hundreds or thousands of new Accepted and novices, who play no role in the battle).

 

Actually, based on the number Gareth gave they had 250 AS left after the Sharan showed up. 120 or so died/were missing (so 1:3 AS) and 1:2 of the regular soldiers died.

 

And as for Tam - he lived through the Battle, that's about all we know.

Edited by zanethanatos
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What happened with Tam?

 

Survived. He led the Two Rivers bowmen at the battle and was later the one to light Rand's funeral pyre.

 

Actually, based on the number Gareth gave they had 250 AS left after the Sharan showed up. 120 or so died/were missing (so 1:3 AS) and 1:2 of the regular soldiers died.

 

That's right, though very implausible. Given Egwene's death march up the side of the hill to face Taim (in which many more Aes Sedai die), it actually appears rather unlikely many Aes Sedai survived the battle at all. Which is odd given that no-one really seems worried about it later on.

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Actually, based on the number Gareth gave they had 250 AS left after the Sharan showed up. 120 or so died/were missing (so 1:3 AS) and 1:2 of the regular soldiers died.

 

That's right, though very implausible. Given Egwene's death march up the side of the hill to face Taim (in which many more Aes Sedai die), it actually appears rather unlikely many Aes Sedai survived the battle at all. Which is odd given that no-one really seems worried about it later on.

 

Well, comparatively few of any of the forces survived the battle -- I'd imagine that the vast majority of surviving Aes Sedai are Yellow Ajah, from Mayene. But even if there are only 100 or so total surviving Aes Sedai after the battle, there are still all those thousands of novices and accepted to re-flush the ranks. 

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That's right, though very implausible. Given Egwene's death march up the side of the hill to face Taim (in which many more Aes Sedai die), it actually appears rather unlikely many Aes Sedai survived the battle at all. Which is odd given that no-one really seems worried about it later on.

 

I had thought there were really only 800 or so sisters left leading up to this (there were 1000 total - but 200 or so were Black). Or was it 1000 + 200 Black?

 

It did seem like there were a decent (small but noticeable) amount left after Ewegene fight + as as neverspeak mentioned - most of the Yellow were elsewhere and we have to assume some of the other sisters were also injured and were elsewhere as well.

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Quick Quesion:  When Egwene uses the Flame of Tar Valon weave and transforms herself into the crystal column, could this have been the fate of the Jenn Aiel?  The crystal columns are living entities.....

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So, is Nakomi the Creator?  She shows up a couple of times during aMoL, IIRC.  Once at the FoM after Moiraine shows up and then is holding Rand after he seals the bore.  There isn't much to go on but that feels like the best assumption given Bair says that she doesn't know a Nakomi.  She only knows it's an ancient name.

 

I'm pretty sure that Alivia is the one holding Rand after he seals the bore.

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I'm dying to know just how the All-Mother harangues everyone into following her lead at FoM....

 

Personally I thought the FoM showdown between her and Rand gave pretty strong evidence that Halima had used Compulsion to turn Egwene against the Dragon.  Besides there being a line that referenced her headaches and Halima just prior to the meeting, Egwene is unreasonable and obstinate far beyond reason; and as much as I dislike Egwene she is not unreasonable by any stretch normally.  Her demands and expectations are absurd, she is unfailingly contrary no matter what he says and there are a lot of indications that Rand's nature as the Dragon is lost upon her (she thinks his effect on the land and making things grow is a trick of some sorts for example).  It has been a theory I found pretty solid for awhile now and I think this book bore it out.  

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my best guess for Nakomi is Lanfear.  With the exception of Lanfear's appearance at the very end.   Lanfear has been displaying a surprising propensity to aid the Light in Tel'aran'rhiod.  She aids Perrin throughout.  It is only when Perrin proves to be too weak that she stops.   Nakomi appeared only after Aviendha began to grow tired.

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my best guess for Nakomi is Lanfear.  With the exception of Lanfear's appearance at the very end.   Lanfear has been displaying a surprising propensity to aid the Light in Tel'aran'rhiod.  She aids Perrin throughout.  It is only when Perrin proves to be too weak that she stops.   Nakomi appeared only after Aviendha began to grow tired.

 

Lanfear dies before the last appearance of Nakomi.  Or at least who we all assume is Nakomi?

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my best guess for Nakomi is Lanfear.  With the exception of Lanfear's appearance at the very end.   Lanfear has been displaying a surprising propensity to aid the Light in Tel'aran'rhiod.  She aids Perrin throughout.  It is only when Perrin proves to be too weak that she stops.   Nakomi appeared only after Aviendha began to grow tired.

 

Lanfear dies before the last appearance of Nakomi.  Or at least who we all assume is Nakomi?

I'm pretty sure that last appearance was Alivia not Nakomi

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my best guess for Nakomi is Lanfear.  With the exception of Lanfear's appearance at the very end.   Lanfear has been displaying a surprising propensity to aid the Light in Tel'aran'rhiod.  She aids Perrin throughout.  It is only when Perrin proves to be too weak that she stops.   Nakomi appeared only after Aviendha began to grow tired.

 

Lanfear dies before the last appearance of Nakomi.  Or at least who we all assume is Nakomi?

I'm pretty sure that last appearance was Alivia not Nakomi

 

Definitely not.  She is described as an old woman with gray hair in Aiel clothing.  I would liken her most closely to the Creator for sure.

 

RJ was a religious man.  I had always thought that the idea of the creator not taking any hand in the world and not helping in any way didn't line up with him.  My thoughts are that this was his insertion to show that despite not taking a direct hand, someone really is watching over everyone.  A little religious sprinkle into the story to add to the feel good ending.

Edited by Mark D
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