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Prologue Through to the End of the Epilogue--Full Book Discussion.

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So instead of asking about the Bore....he asks about the Dark One? How does that make sense?

 

 

if i recall, and as i said before in the quote you directly quote, Moriane states specifically "you cannot ask questions touching the shadow, these are punished by death."  its either near the end of tDR or in the beginning of tSR where this is explained and rather bluntly so by Moriane to the girls.

 

not meaning to be snarky, but its rather point blank why Rand couldn't ask or didn't ask questions invlovling any aspect of the DO or his prison, seeing as you can't ask any question that concerns the Shadow. 

 

Yes, everyone knows what Moiraine said (and it had nothing to do with punishment by death). That doesn't change the fact that all three of Rand's actual questions touched on the Shadow, and that his third-revealed question about killing the Dark One touched even more heavily on the Shadow than asking about sealing the Bore would have. So your reasoning makes no sense.

 

PS—In case you don't remember them:

 

1. How do I cleanse the Dark One's taint from saidin?

2. How do I win and survive the Last Battle?

3. How do I kill the Dark One?

 

All three clearly Shadow-related, and the one that was left open until now (#3)—the one where he might have asked how to seal the Bore—was the most Shadow-related of them all.

no i dont recall that, i'm currently on my first re-read of the series and am on tSR which is why that part was fresh on my mind. i recall vaugley Rand talkign abotu his questions in tGS with Nyn ... or maybe it was Min .... but as i haven't read the books since they came out what he said he asked is not something i know off hand and will take your word for it.

 

how was it Rand got an answer at then, its stated rather clearly that is something that you can't ask. i know you have to cheat to when with them, but i always felt that applied to the Foxes rather than the Snakes.

 

as for what Moriane specifically says is the punishement, if i recall she is unsure abotu what she is saying to be absolute and leaves it open to interpretation due to not being able to lie from the 3 oaths, but the heavy implication is that its punishable by death, as are asking frivalous questions.

 

rand would be able to produce Fire to bind them, but binding them wouldn't force them to answer the questions.

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So, is Nakomi the Creator?  She shows up a couple of times during aMoL, IIRC.  Once at the FoM after Moiraine shows up and then is holding Rand after he seals the bore.  There isn't much to go on but that feels like the best assumption given Bair says that she doesn't know a Nakomi.  She only knows it's an ancient name.

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So instead of asking about the Bore....he asks about the Dark One? How does that make sense?

 

 

if i recall, and as i said before in the quote you directly quote, Moriane states specifically "you cannot ask questions touching the shadow, these are punished by death."  its either near the end of tDR or in the beginning of tSR where this is explained and rather bluntly so by Moriane to the girls.

 

not meaning to be snarky, but its rather point blank why Rand couldn't ask or didn't ask questions invlovling any aspect of the DO or his prison, seeing as you can't ask any question that concerns the Shadow. 

 

Yes, everyone knows what Moiraine said (and it had nothing to do with punishment by death). That doesn't change the fact that all three of Rand's actual questions touched on the Shadow, and that his third-revealed question about killing the Dark One touched even more heavily on the Shadow than asking about sealing the Bore would have. So your reasoning makes no sense.

 

PS—In case you don't remember them:

 

1. How do I cleanse the Dark One's taint from saidin?

2. How do I win and survive the Last Battle?

3. How do I kill the Dark One?

 

All three clearly Shadow-related, and the one that was left open until now (#3)—the one where he might have asked how to seal the Bore—was the most Shadow-related of them all.

no i dont recall that, i'm currently on my first re-read of the series and am on tSR which is why that part was fresh on my mind. i recall vaugley Rand talkign abotu his questions in tGS with Nyn ... or maybe it was Min .... but as i haven't read the books since they came out what he said he asked is not something i know off hand and will take your word for it.

 

how was it Rand got an answer at then, its stated rather clearly that is something that you can't ask. i know you have to cheat to when with them, but i always felt that applied to the Foxes rather than the Snakes.

 

as for what Moriane specifically says is the punishement, if i recall she is unsure abotu what she is saying to be absolute and leaves it open to interpretation due to not being able to lie from the 3 oaths, but the heavy implication is that its punishable by death, as are asking frivalous questions.

 

rand would be able to produce Fire to bind them, but binding them wouldn't force them to answer the questions.

 

I don't think she said questions touching the Shadow were out-and-out forbidden and wouldn't be answered. I don't have the book handy to look it up, but I believe she said those types of questions have "dire consequences". However, she also noted that Rand was ta'veren and that has an effect on them too. Not to mention her and Mat also being in at the same time as Rand. For a normal person going through the doorway, I'm sure if they asked questions Shadow-related, the Finns probably would have gobbled them up (though I don't think it had anything to do with the treaty or the rules, just more along the lines of their nature). For a ta'veren though, things are probably a bit different, and I think that was either directly stated or heavily implied.

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Perhaps I'm being too practical, but what questions could Rand possibly care about at that stage that don't have any connection to the Shadow or the Dark One?   What kids he might have? 

 

And yes, questions concerning the shadow were not overtly forbidden, but were instead considered extremely dangerous.   IMO, Rand's second question/answer came true in a very clear and understandable manner. 

Edited by Axon

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" but I believe she said those types of questions have "dire consequences"."

 

like i said, she left it open to interpretation due to not being able to lie via the 3 oaths (her stating something as fact while not knowing if it was fact is considered a lie after all).

 

but the implication she gave was that dire consequences meant death or mental illness. *points to WoT Wiki*

 

 

also, i'm more inclined to think that the earthquake had more to do with Rand asking questions touching the Shadow and using Fire rather than 3 people (two of which where ta'veren) being in there at the same time. otherwise 1 of them woudl not have gotten their questions answered because if it was their pressence then the earthquake would have happened immediately when the 3rd person (or 2nd ta'veren) stepped through, which we know isn't the case. all 3 got their questions answered, as Rand came out last it, imo, backs up the fact that it was his questions and not his pressence, that caused the earthquake.

 

my poitn is, i disagree with the assumption that "it was something Sanderson made up."

Edited by Red2111

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Does anyone know when the "He came like the wind, like the wind touched everything, and like the wind was gone" quote was first used?

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I had the strong feeling that the author(s) were fudging the numbers to make the battle more even than it should have been - not to mention the whole Sharan thing coming out of nowhere feels exactly like "oh the darkside is badly outnumbered, I'll create some competent channelers out of somewhere else to shore the numbers up". 

 

I get the impression that RJ and Team Jordan have sometimes worked under the impression that all WoT fans have read the Big White Book, which does talk about Shara in some detail. Some of that info has come out in the book itself, but it's mostly contained there. Based on my own experiences, a surprisingly small number have, or have not revisited in many years, so some of the elements in the book which become more important in the novels later on indeed feel like they've come out of nowhere.

 

I'm also uncertain about the whole re-sealing thing. Is Rand's new TP+OP prison the same as what Meirin originally detected the DO through and drilled the bore into? Is the Wheel simply going to repeat whatever it did during the last revolution without any real progress? Groundhog day on a geological timescale.

 

Yes, essentially. This is one of the things the books are about, that they are just another turning of the Wheel. There is nothing 'special' about this revolution. To be fair, if I recall RJ was asked this during the old Tor Q&A days and did say that there wasn't anything special about this particular revolution (which would have ruled out the 'killing the Dark One' possibility).

 

What about Avi's vision Re: Aiel and Seanchan? I would really, really liked to have more closure on that (and the whole "you can keep the damane you already have" deal that Rand made). Considering that these damane will live for hundreds of years, the Seanchan empire will have a significant weapon for couple of centuries if the status quo is maintained. The Aiel are probably decimated - so they won't be a very powerful "police force" against the Seanchan - who probably took the least casualties of all.

 

The Aiel have certainly taken heavy casualties, but there were a lot of them to start with. In addition, unlike the Shaido, most of the clans left manpower behind in the Waste and didn't think they were moving wholesale into the Westlands forever. Now that this is the case, they have some reinforcements to draw upon (though likely not too many).

 

As for the future of that storyline, I think Rand's vision in Shayol Ghul covered it: Seanchan and Aiel walking down the streets of Emond's Field in relative peace without killing one another, indicating the Dragon's Peace holds for at least 100 years into the future.

 

As for the Seanchean Aiel future, Egwene and Tuon's brief meeting suggesting further truce is likely to go forward, specially with Min and Mat to advise Tuon and Cadsuane as Amyrlin.

 

Yes, I think the major differences with the original vision were the Aiel not being covered in the Dragon's Peace and possibly Min not being Tuon's advisor. This puts a different spin on things, and should support friendlier relations going forwards.

 

There isn't much to go on but that feels like the best assumption given Bair says that she doesn't know a Nakomi.  She only knows it's an ancient name.

 

This does suggest to me a possible Jenn Aiel connection. Considering the Jenn created the glass columns and have a connection to the Aiel, this may be a factor.

 

Edit: I doubt the Outriggers would answer much in terms of the grand scheme of things.  Since they were going to involve Mat and Tuon reclaiming Seanchan you can probably only expect that those characters would have continued, not the rest.

 

I think other characters would have come into it, most notably Min if she remains Tuon's advisor (this is something that I think needs more clarification, as is unclear if that is her permanent job from now on at the end of the book).

 

Does anyone know when the "He came like the wind, like the wind touched everything, and like the wind was gone" quote was first used?

 

Robert Jordan suddenly said this whilst preparing to send off the manuscript for one of the books to Tor, probably WH or CoT. Harriet wrote it down on a discarded piece of paper and kept hold of it, thinking RJ might want to use it. RJ was talking about Rand, but when RJ passed away the saying was used as a quotation at his funeral.

Edited by Werthead

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I get the impression that RJ and Team Jordan have sometimes worked under the impression that all WoT fans have read the Big White Book, which does talk about Shara in some detail. Some of that info has come out in the book itself, but it's mostly contained there. Based on my own experiences, a surprisingly small number have, or have not revisited in many years, so some of the elements in the book which become more important in the novels later on indeed feel like they've come out of nowhere.

 

One of my big "wish it had been there"'s about aMoL is that nobody ever showed up from the Land of Madmen, which I thought would have been pretty nifty. Alas.

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The weak point in the pattern IMO now is the place Egwene died.The bore at SG is now sealed as much as any other place in the pattern. So the future bore will be made where Egwene and Taim died.

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but the implication she gave was that dire consequences meant death or mental illness. *points to WoT Wiki*

 

WoT Wiki is not really an acceptable source. Wouldn't base anything off what it says there.

Edited by Suttree

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I am very pleased with the book. 

 

I have to say I was fascinated with the tidbits of the Demandred storyline. It appears that the Sharans had some prophecies about Rand, like the other peoples of the world. The Sea Folk believed in the Coramoor. The Randlanders and Seanchan believed in the Dragon Reborn. The Aiel believed in the Car'a'carn. And the Sharans believed in the Wyld, which Demandred subverted to his goals. 

 

There is some very subtle hints at the whole Demandred subplot, but it certainly appears that he went to Shara and fulfilled the prophecies that Rand was supposed to fulfill. He rose as their champion, "He Who is Owned Only by the Land", likely a reference to the Sharan practice of chattel slavery, in that Demandred/Bao was owned by no one but the land of Shara itself. Demandred is portrayed as having almost fallen in love with a Sharan woman, Shendla, and having affection for an ancient Sharan monk that Moghedien kills. Demandred muses that he actually feels like he is the champion of the Sharans and wants to help them survive once the Dark One wins. 

 

I have no idea if this was intended by Jordan all along or if Sanderson had to improvise this plot point with Shara, but the Demandred "storyline", which probably only encompassed less than 10 pages total in the book, was literally more interesting and compelling than any of the other Forsaken in the entire series. This has always been one of the weak points in the series, that the villains are literally idiots, up to and including the Dark One itself. 

 

Demandred was definitely the star of the entire book for me on the villain side. 

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I'd have to agree that Demandred was the star villain.  I dont particularly like how he spent his entire time in the last book screaming for LTT to come fight him like a raging madman and engaging in personal duels, but he definitely presented an interesting backstory and it was good fun to read.  The more I think about it the more ridiculous Demandred was in the last book actually.

 

The other Forsaken that I had high hopes for were Moridin and Lanfear...and they were both pretty much reduced to nobodies in the last book.

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My understanding of the question thing was that you ask about the shadow as long as it is truly important to you. My other thought was always it was a false rumor created by Moridin over the thousands of years between the last companions and now to stop people from using the Door\Aelfin\Ellfin to far more easily defeat the Shadow. The Rumor being, "Don't ask about the Shadow, its bad news"

 

That being said, given how Rand always says something along the lines of, "I don't have all the answers yet", I had hoped his third question was an answer to how to seal the bore but it just made no sense to him.

 

How he did NOT ask a question about the bore is one of the worst oversights of the book(s).

 

For me it falls in with Gareth Bryne (blademaster) sees Gawyn - > soils his pants at how good he is. Gawyn can defeat Sleete -> who once won 1 or 2 of 7 from Lan - > Gawyn uses ter'angreal that makes you super human(ish), not only that, three of them - > is the worst swordsman of the three.

 

Frankly I do believe that this "ranking" of blademasters is the true correct one, except all that other stuff that clearly was pointless drivel in TGS\TOM. I understand the role of the unreliable narrator aka the SuperGirls thinking the Shadow was out for them and didn't care about the three boy Ta'veren, but generally not in their field of expertise. Nynaeve is always fair and truthful about healing, Elayne about politics etc. So either one of the great captains and a blademaster is a horrible judge of skill, or we had lazy comparisons. Or it falls under the naming convention\donate 100 dollars becomes a random blademaster with an awful name sweepstakes.

Edited by tedman

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For me it falls in with Gareth Bryne (blademaster) sees Gawyn - > soils his pants at how good he is. Gawyn can defeat Sleete -> who once won 1 or 2 of 7 from Lan - > Gawyn uses ter'angreal that makes you super human(ish), not only that, three of them - > is the worst swordsman of the three.

 

RJ (and Sanderson?) had always said that Gawyn was more lucky than good with the sword. He was never supposed to be close to as good as Galad or Lan.

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For me it falls in with Gareth Bryne (blademaster) sees Gawyn - > soils his pants at how good he is. Gawyn can defeat Sleete -> who once won 1 or 2 of 7 from Lan - > Gawyn uses ter'angreal that makes you super human(ish), not only that, three of them - > is the worst swordsman of the three.

 

RJ (and Sanderson?) had always said that Gawyn was more lucky than good with the sword. He was never supposed to be close to as good as Galad or Lan.

I 100% understand. But hes lucky against 2v1 with sleete practicing for a month. He is lucky every single day of that. Look I understand what everyone will say, but it does not add up. To me it comes down to shoddy reverse retcon to fix a previous unraveling of what was a loose truth.

 

On that sort of note, what makes some of the book so disappointing to me(in terms of potential) is that there is no real crafty villain. Where is the Verin of the Shadow? As much as I love this series, and I do, BS in Mistborn has a far more creative\nefarious\crafty bad guy. The whole series is about Daes Dae'mar, yet most of the resolution is akin to Rand punching Graendal in the face. I'd hoped we would get the good parts of the BS along with the bad, as we did with RJ. He did a great job on the battles and pacing, in my opinion, I just feel like he might not have had much creative freedom as you really need.

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The one major criticism I can make of RJ in this series is the common one.  His villains were too one dimensional and too simple in what is otherwise a very complex and detailed world.  He provides tremendous room to craft amazing characters for the bad guys and then in the end he doesn't make use of any of it.  They are just all standard one dimensional bad guys.  Lanfear and Moridin both came very close...but in the end they both died a standard bad guy as well.  That really is the biggest problem I see with the series.

 

On the same note, I think Graendal was supposed to be the clever bad guy of the series....but that fell flat.  Whether by design or by the original author being unable to finish it we will never know.

 

As for the sword thing...I always felt that it was kind of a silly kids thing to argue about who was "the best" and second best.  Lan was clearly presented as the greatest swordsman in the series and beneath him it was like real life...intentionally vague.  Just like real life.  Look at some of the best athletes and ask yourself who "the best" is.  Everyone has their own opinion, and the reality is that in many cases the masters of their individual sport/game are so close that any of them can win on a given day.  Take gold for example...Tiger is/was clearly the best golfer, but he doesn't win every tournament.  Far from it.

 

Though I will add an amendment and say that we know from original source material that Sammael was likely the best swordsman in the series.  He was infamous as an athlete prior to turning to the Shadow and he was the world champion at swords prior to them being used in war.  As the AoL was depicted as the pinnacle of society and it is an empircal fact that athletic skill improves over time and generations, it is a safe assumption to say that Sammael would have been the best swordsman in the series by a clear margin.  Is it definite?  Nope...but given what we know I think it's a good bet.

Edited by Mark D

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On that sort of note, what makes some of the book so disappointing to me(in terms of potential) is that there is no real crafty villain. Where is the Verin of the Shadow? 

 

I thought Graendal was an awful villain in ToM, but in aMoL she was just about perfect. Actually, it's almost inconceivable how effective she was, both with the dream-compulsion and with the actual fighting at Shayol Ghul. If it wasn't for the fact that Aviendha's unravelling gateway (something that, as Moridin's POV in Path of Daggers showed, the Foresaken never would have even considered to be a remote possibility) backfired on her, it's entirely possible that she would have won the battle there. 

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I have to say I was fascinated with the tidbits of the Demandred storyline. It appears that the Sharans had some prophecies about Rand, like the other peoples of the world. The Sea Folk believed in the Coramoor. The Randlanders and Seanchan believed in the Dragon Reborn. The Aiel believed in the Car'a'carn. And the Sharans believed in the Wyld, which Demandred subverted to his goals.

 

This isn't quite right. In earlier novels - Lord of Chaos I think? - we get messages from Shara arriving in the Westlands asking about Rand, the Dragon Reborn and asking when he will break the world again. So clearly the Sharans are aware of the Dragon Reborn, that it's Rand and that the Prophecies of the Dragon will play out.

 

That to me reinforces the idea that Demandred had won over a large faction or group of Sharans, but not the entire nation. The numbers present at the battle reflect that; if one Aiel clan can field 400 channellers by itself, a nation the size of Shara (larger than the Westlands combined) should have been able to field thousands upon thousands of them, not the few hundred who did show up.

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but the implication she gave was that dire consequences meant death or mental illness. *points to WoT Wiki*

 

WoT Wiki is not really an acceptable source. Wouldn't base anything off what it says there.
and i'm not basing what i'm saying off of that, just using it to poitn out what i'm saying since i dont carry the series with me to work and lack the ability to quote it right now.

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I have to say I was fascinated with the tidbits of the Demandred storyline. It appears that the Sharans had some prophecies about Rand, like the other peoples of the world. The Sea Folk believed in the Coramoor. The Randlanders and Seanchan believed in the Dragon Reborn. The Aiel believed in the Car'a'carn. And the Sharans believed in the Wyld, which Demandred subverted to his goals.

 

This isn't quite right. In earlier novels - Lord of Chaos I think? - we get messages from Shara arriving in the Westlands asking about Rand, the Dragon Reborn and asking when he will break the world again. So clearly the Sharans are aware of the Dragon Reborn, that it's Rand and that the Prophecies of the Dragon will play out.

 

That to me reinforces the idea that Demandred had won over a large faction or group of Sharans, but not the entire nation. The numbers present at the battle reflect that; if one Aiel clan can field 400 channellers by itself, a nation the size of Shara (larger than the Westlands combined) should have been able to field thousands upon thousands of them, not the few hundred who did show up.

Alternatively, the civil war that Graendal and Rand between them set off could have had catastrophic effects on the population. And Demandred, by playing on their desperation and promising to save what number of them he could, managed to get their allegiance. Its pretty clear they were not Darkfriends, just desperate people hoodwinked into following Demandred.

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I have to say I was fascinated with the tidbits of the Demandred storyline. It appears that the Sharans had some prophecies about Rand, like the other peoples of the world. The Sea Folk believed in the Coramoor. The Randlanders and Seanchan believed in the Dragon Reborn. The Aiel believed in the Car'a'carn. And the Sharans believed in the Wyld, which Demandred subverted to his goals.

 

This isn't quite right. In earlier novels - Lord of Chaos I think? - we get messages from Shara arriving in the Westlands asking about Rand, the Dragon Reborn and asking when he will break the world again. So clearly the Sharans are aware of the Dragon Reborn, that it's Rand and that the Prophecies of the Dragon will play out.

 

That to me reinforces the idea that Demandred had won over a large faction or group of Sharans, but not the entire nation. The numbers present at the battle reflect that; if one Aiel clan can field 400 channellers by itself, a nation the size of Shara (larger than the Westlands combined) should have been able to field thousands upon thousands of them, not the few hundred who did show up.

Alternatively, the civil war that Graendal and Rand between them set off could have had catastrophic effects on the population. And Demandred, by playing on their desperation and promising to save what number of them he could, managed to get their allegiance. Its pretty clear they were not Darkfriends, just desperate people hoodwinked into following Demandred.

DP.

Edited by fionwe1987

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Some things that I think could have made the ending better:

 

1)  Faile dying.

 

2)  Min, Avi, or Elayne dying.

 

3)  One of the Forsaken (preferrably Lanfear) turning to the light.

 

Would have loved for the main characters to experience some real loss at one point that was personal to them.  They essentially escaped from this mess totally intact with their loved ones.  And the Forsaken just all perished a standard bad guy death.

Edited by Mark D

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As much as I liked Lan surviving.  His moment would have been much better if he didn't survive "sheathing the sword."  After I read that I shut the book and threw it down.  It was such an epic moment.  Then he was alive and I was like "oh, not as cool."

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New here but have been lurking for some time. just finished the book. Wow. One question though. What was it he did at the end to light his pipe? Was it Talmanes? Or does he have the ability to just do things by thought now?

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A few questions I have.

 

Do we find out what the Fallen Blacksmith prophecy refers too?

 

What becomes of Galad and the Children of Light?

 

Does Rand reunite with Moiraine?  And if so, how was that meeting?

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