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Luckers

Prologue Through to the End of Chapter 25

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I'm thinking that Graendal's new persona is messing with the great captains through their dreams. Yes, I'm taking Lanfear's word that Graendal was actually touching Bashere's dream star. I think the battle plans will be shown to suck precisely because the Shadow is causing them to suck.

 

Yeah, I'm kind of hoping for some kind of explanation like this, though it wouldn't solve everything. My bigger problems are:

 

1) What the hell have the Asha'man been up to? Not just the ones at the Black Tower, but the half of them who had supposedly been sent out on missions before. Sounds like there might be some explanation for this brewing, but I still feel like the story doesn't account properly for all of the various groups of channelers attached to different armies. 

 

2) Shouldn't Elayne have been able to crush the Caemlyn army just based on sheer numbers? She had the armies of Andor+Cairhien+Perrin+Whitecloaks+Legion of the Dragon+Band of the Red Hand+some aiel+maybe some I'm forgetting, right? That has to be hundreds of thousands of soldiers, up against what we're told is tens of thousands but probably not hundreds of thousands of trollocs. I don't understand how they could keep being driven back, even if Bashere is doing something screwy. 

 

That said, I'm generally happy with the non-war strategy parts of the story, and excited that we seem to be approaching huge climaxes with about half of it still to go. Just don't think I can listen to any more of that audiobook now. 

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2) Shouldn't Elayne have been able to crush the Caemlyn army just based on sheer numbers? She had the armies of Andor+Cairhien+Perrin+Whitecloaks+Legion of the Dragon+Band of the Red Hand+some aiel+maybe some I'm forgetting, right? That has to be hundreds of thousands of soldiers, up against what we're told is tens of thousands but probably not hundreds of thousands of trollocs. I don't understand how they could keep being driven back, even if Bashere is doing something screwy. 

 

Well, the Waygate in Caemlyn is still open.  The Shadow is probably still pumping more Trollocs through it, to build the forces behind the battle lines of the Light.

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2) Shouldn't Elayne have been able to crush the Caemlyn army just based on sheer numbers? She had the armies of Andor+Cairhien+Perrin+Whitecloaks+Legion of the Dragon+Band of the Red Hand+some aiel+maybe some I'm forgetting, right? That has to be hundreds of thousands of soldiers, up against what we're told is tens of thousands but probably not hundreds of thousands of trollocs. I don't understand how they could keep being driven back, even if Bashere is doing something screwy. 

 

Well, the Waygate in Caemlyn is still open.  The Shadow is probably still pumping more Trollocs through it, to build the forces behind the battle lines of the Light.

 

True, but if theyre strung out across half of Andor and Cairhein as a result of coming through the waygate and catching up with the armies, they should be juicy targets for... say, an enemy that has Traveling and a large cavalry force. But regardless it all comes back to the alleged initial plan to draw the trollocs out of Caemlyn, assumedly to destroy the waygate. If theres a limitless supply of trollocs pouring out of the waygate, its pretty much irrelevant how many you lure out of the city, theyre just going to be replaced.  None of this plan makes a lick of sense.  Its like you have a water main break and youre trying to bail out your basement with a bucket before you turn the water off.

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True, but if theyre strung out across half of Andor and Cairhein as a result of coming through the waygate and catching up with the armies, they should be juicy targets for... say, an enemy that has Traveling and a large cavalry force. But regardless it all comes back to the alleged initial plan to draw the trollocs out of Caemlyn, assumedly to destroy the waygate. If theres a limitless supply of trollocs pouring out of the waygate, its pretty much irrelevant how many you lure out of the city, theyre just going to be replaced.  None of this plan makes a lick of sense.  Its like you have a water main break and youre trying to bail out your basement with a bucket before you turn the water off.

 

Yes.  Perfect plan for the Shadow's influence on the forces of the Light, yes?  Either because Bashere is a DF, or Graendal has been playing in his dreams and causing the bad tactics, the Shadow has succeeded in the good guys building a plan around a faulty idea - that they can draw all the trollocs out of Caemlyn.  In truth, they can't, because they'll be replaced by more from the Ways.

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I agree, but the problem is this should be painfully obvious to even a casual observer. Maybe you can argue that Bashere is a DF or is having his brain muddled, but the plan is already in motion to attack the waygate, and thats a channeling job. IE- Elayne should be on top of that considering the entire Light Side strategy (outside of the SG strike) was built on doing it. Oh, yeah, and its also in her capitol city. It makes no sense that its slipped her mind or that she doesn't realize there may be more trollocs in Caemlyn by now than there were before this whole thing started. And I think Elayne is a dope (right on Cadsuane!) but still cant believe sh'e miss this. Its frustrating.

 

 

-Oh, and where the heck is Dobraine? Poor guy is missing the Last Battle.

Edited by mbuehner

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-Oh, and where the heck is Dobraine? Poor guy is missing the Last Battle.

He got knifed badly at the start of Book 11.  The Aes Sedai who Healed him (Sumeko?) commented to herself how she only healed him a smidge, just enough to stop him from bleeding out, but he would have to heal on his own afterward, and would likely be essentially an invalid; any stronger use of Healing would have killed him from the shock.

 

IIRC, a wound can only be healed once.  If it is only healed a small bit, the remainder must heal naturally.  I could be completely wrong in this remembrance, though.

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-Oh, and where the heck is Dobraine? Poor guy is missing the Last Battle.

 

Dobraine is one of my favorite characters, and I've been wondering this as well. I can only assume he's still in Cairhein, as Elayne would have had to leave someone in charge of the city. 

Edited by Kil

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A lot of foreshadowing for both Bashere and Agelmar to be darkfriends.

I would say it is more likely Bashere than Agelmar and I doubt both of them will be. 

THey can't be Darkfriends. As they have been in the same room as Rand. But I agree they are weird. I was thinking more along the lines of Compulsion. But I don't know how Bashere would have been. Maybe a disguised forsaken? It's the only thing that makes sense.

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  I am a little concerned that the dark side has six major male antagonists....the dark one, Demandred, M'hael, Nablis, Slayer and Ordeith. The light, however, only has four major male protagonists in return, Rand, Perrin, Matt and Logain. I'm curious who will end up fighting who, aside from the obvious battle between Rand and the Dark One.....Thoughts?

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The battle plans are beyond idiotic and the numbers for the forces were not handled well. It really fits it with Brandon's "tell don't show" style. We can't just be told that the battle plan is brilliant when it isn't in anyway.

 

I'm inching my way through this book. Any other WoT book, I read in 2 days, tops.

Now I'm 5 days into the story...and I just arrived at Chapter 26.

It's ..so, so bad...

 

It could have been so good.

I just can't believe Harriet or Tom actually read / endorsed this.

I can't believe Jim wrote any of this up untill now..or even that this outlines his story.

It's beyond crappy, regardless of what you focus on.

 

It breaks my heart that I feel about it this way. 

 

I'm so sorry that I was so harsh to BBM, Sut, Fish & Luckers when I guess all they tried to do, was warn guys like me to not get their hopes up.

just coudln't /  didn't want to believe they were probably right -regardless of how ToM read- , because never, ever I would have immagined AMoL could be THIS bad.

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So, so bad? Really?

 

And I think that's a misuse of "show, don't tell," because there's quite a bit of showing going on. The question is plausibility, I suppose.

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While I understand and sympathize with those that are disappointed, let me tell you some of the scenes I have loved reading so far:

Lan's POV in chapter 6 when he thinks he is leading the men into the final charge.

Moiraine's entry at the fields of M.

Rand's meeting with Fortuna and Mat.

And for the first time since book 2, Perrin's arc (although, this might be because we haven't seen much of Fail -sp error on purpose)

 

There are things i wish were handled better ofcourse, but there is enough done right to make it a fun read for me.

 

Okay, I'm diving back into to it now!

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2) Shouldn't Elayne have been able to crush the Caemlyn army just based on sheer numbers? She had the armies of Andor+Cairhien+Perrin+Whitecloaks+Legion of the Dragon+Band of the Red Hand+some aiel+maybe some I'm forgetting, right? That has to be hundreds of thousands of soldiers, up against what we're told is tens of thousands but probably not hundreds of thousands of trollocs. I don't understand how they could keep being driven back, even if Bashere is doing something screwy. 

 

Well, the Waygate in Caemlyn is still open.  The Shadow is probably still pumping more Trollocs through it, to build the forces behind the battle lines of the Light.

 

True, but if theyre strung out across half of Andor and Cairhein as a result of coming through the waygate and catching up with the armies, they should be juicy targets for... say, an enemy that has Traveling and a large cavalry force. But regardless it all comes back to the alleged initial plan to draw the trollocs out of Caemlyn, assumedly to destroy the waygate. If theres a limitless supply of trollocs pouring out of the waygate, its pretty much irrelevant how many you lure out of the city, theyre just going to be replaced.  None of this plan makes a lick of sense.  Its like you have a water main break and youre trying to bail out your basement with a bucket before you turn the water off.

 

Of course, the smart thing to do would have been to slap a Gateway tight up against the ripply, mirror surface of the Waygate in Caemlyn, and hold it there, so the trollocs would die as they came through, and let Machin Shin deal with the Shadowspawn stuck in The Ways. Or use a Gateway to sink the entire area where the Waygate is deep underground... or use a Gateway to drop a mountain of earth and rock on top of it to block it. 

 

Point of clarity in this thread regarding the misuse of Gateways and Waygates in these discussions:

  1. Gateways are the portals opened by Channelers to facilitate Travelling and Skimming.
  2. Waygates are the doors to The Ways.

Seems trivial, but they ARE different and specific things. 

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Ok, I'm now about halfway through the book. I've been jotting down a few notes on each chapter as I go. Here is Chapters 1-12. I'll be back with 13-25 later.

 

Prologue: Lots of cool stuff here. A very good beginning. Talmanes and Androl are quickly beoming two of my very favorite lesser characters. Too bad Talmanes has to die, but it’s a good exit.

 

Chapter 1: Oh wait, I forgot. This is the series where none of the good guys die. Talmanes saved just in the nick of time. Funny, Elayne actually seems less annoying when she hangs out with Egwene. She should do that more often.

 

Chapter 2: Liking Pevara. Refreshing to see a red sister who isn’t a complete _____. Loving the Black Tower stuff. Should have had more of this, earlier in the series.

 

Chapter 3: Black Tower = Awesome.  Rand/Aviendha? Just can’t say I really care about any of the “romantic” relationships in this book. Romance was never RJ’s strong suit, and BS is just sticking to form. For what it’s worth, I’d say Siuan/Bryne was probably the most interesting.

 

Chapter 4: We’re getting more of the Black Tower than I had hoped. I always enjoy the Rand/Moridin conversations. Kind of frustrating how, for all the thought Rand and Min have supposedly given to the Last Battle, Rand really seems to believe he can/should “kill” the Dark One. That’s just dumb.

 

Chapter 5: How do you make Rand more awesome than he already is? Put him in the same room as Egwene! What an arrogant, ignorant little twit. “I’m the Watcher of the Seals!” If I were Rand, I’d be all like, “Oh really? So where are the seals? How’s that watching going?” The Rand/Roedran exchange: I laughed, but it’s so inside jokey, it reads a bit like fan fiction. Seriously though, really can’t believe anyone on here thought that Demandred was Roedran, marshaling that mighty army of Murandians!! Anybody with half a brain knows he’s in Shara – remember that huge country of people we know nothing about but can’t honestly expect to just sit the Last Battle out?

 

Chapter 6: Moraine saves the day, because she’s just awesome. And she smacks down Egwene, which just makes her awesomer. Normally, I don’t dig the whole foray into politics, but the Dragon’s Peace is simple and straightforward enough. A good development. Oh yeah, let’s put Elayne in charge of the armies! [Headdesk] I assume she’s just to act all self-important and end up taking the advice of the Great Captains anyway, but do we really need to inflate her ego any more?

 

Chapter 7: Elayne: “All right, so here’s how we’re gonna win this thang. Great Captains, what am I going to suggest that you do?” Wait, the advice is to open up 4 battle fronts, three of which were selected by the enemy? Something tells me this will not bode well. Now quick, let’s give Faile something to do off screen for most the remainder of the book. Thank you Brandon.

 

Chapter 8: Ok, again, we’ve got a mass of Trollocs hunkered down in a city that’s already lost, so let’s devote a lot of resources to flushing them out? I’m not getting the strategery here. More Black Tower, please.

 

Chapter 9: Meh, I like Lan, don’t get me wrong, but there’s just no tension to the Tarwin Gap excerpts because you know he’s not gonna die there. Rand/Elayne: Yes, I guess at some point those two had to talk about that, but Rand gots so many baby mamas, he just doesn’t have time, you know? Wait, where did Elayne get that ter’angreal? That seems like an awfully convenient find at this stage in the plot. Has she gone beyond copying the things to just making whatever she wants?

 

Chapter 10: Nice reference to the cannons as ending war. Can’t remember when that was actually first said in real life. I know it wasn’t the atomic bomb. Gatling Gun, I think?

 

Chapter 11: Great idea about the horizontal gateways. I assume that idea originated with a fan on one of these message boards? Kind of neat that Rand isn’t really all-powerful. Adds a little tension when he doesn’t win all the time.

 

Chapter 12: Interesting, I always viewed Lanfear as having no loyalty to the Shadow. She is loyal only to herself. Still not sure if she is trying to trap Rand of help him, but it will be whatever she thinks is in her own best interest. So Perrin’s going to spend a lot of this final book fighting in TAR. That makes sense. Always thought it was cool that he’s actually way more experienced there than Egwene or the other dreamwalkers.

Edited by Beidomon

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Chapter 13: Hard to get really invested in any of these fights because I still can’t get my head around why they’ve chosen to fight on so many different fronts. Bornhald jumps in to tell Perrin that Fain killed his family – that was sort of out of place. So I guess we can expect Perrin to kill Fain? Perrin is headed to TAR in the flesh. That should help. Glad Gaul is coming along, too.

 

Chapter 14: Ah, crazy lady is back again. Perrin: “I don’t know what she wants….” None of us do, big guy, none of us do. Ahhh yeah, Androl kicking some serious butt.

 

Chapter 15: Past few books, I’ve been kind of speed reading through the Matt chapters, but he’s actually pretty entertaining this time around. I don’t care if he single-handedly delivers the Seachan to Rand, I still maintain that the Matt/Tuon marriage is just dumb.

 

Chapter 16: Rand and Moraine; now there’s a relationship I enjoy, but don’t tell Thom.

 

Chapter 17: The whole Rand/Matt chest-thumping exchange; here again, it’s funny, but it reads a little like fan-fiction. Just doesn’t seem very believable. Seems like a reasonable compromise between Rand and Tuon. Sorry Elaida.

 

Chapter 18: Remind me again, why are we fighting in Kandor? Not buying that Agelmar is a darkfriend. Nobody’s perfect. Actually makes things more realistic.

 

Chapter 19: Hmmm… this whole divide up onto 4 fronts thing doesn’t seem to be working out too well. And the seals are fake. Didn’t see that one coming, but now I understand Taim’s comment about stealing the keys. Neat development, but why haven’t they broken the seals already? And why didn’t Egwene as the “Watcher of the Seals” figure this out? Oh right, she doesn’t actually know jack about them.

 

Chapter 20: Hello, Shara! Nice description of Thakan’dar. Sounds a bit like Detroit.

 

Chapter 21: Yukiri has a neat weave. I like Pevara, and I like Androl better. You, know I complained a lot about how little attention the Black Tower received in this series, but it actually had a pretty satisfying arc in just this book alone.

 

Chapter 22: Hello, Demandred. Not sure if your diatribe is just an act for the Sharans, or if maybe you’ve gone a little cuckoo. I really, really hope Egwene isn’t the one who kills you, but seems to be heading that way. Man, Perrin got mad skillz in TAR. And I think Lanfear might be an upgrade over Faile. Just sayin. Oh, THAT’s what’s happening to the GCs! Wow, I did not expect that, but it is pretty cool to see the Shadow not being totally incompetent for a change. So is this the cause of the idiotic “let’s all split of up” strategy, or did that come later?

 

Chapter 23: Hoping that Bloodknife ring thing really is irreversible. Knowing this series, is isn't. I'm glad Rand chose Nynaeve and Moraine to be there at the end. Thom is an odd choice. Is the first time we’ve heard the Creator since EotW?

 

Chapter 24: Of all the GCs, Ituralde still seems to have his stuff together. That's lucky, I guess.

 

Chapter 25: Can’t believe Rand is finally at the Pit of Doom. Goosebumps. So that’s how we’re going to resolve Shaidar Haran. Makes sense, I guess. Oh now I get it; those red-veiled dudes are the male channeler Aiel who went north to fight the Shadow. Cool. Lots of neat developments in this book, like how the divide between our world and TAR is thin at the PoD.

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OK. Here's a question.

 

1. Thom decides to come along to Shayol Ghul. (We'll leave the whole question of why he was allowed to go in the first place alone, and accept the fact on its face.)

2. He says he'll just hang out at the entrance of the Pit of Doom, waych the action and write a Ballad of the Last Battle or something.

3. Perrin drops the Dreamspike into the PoD cavern to stop Slayer's blinking into the Pit and killing Rand, forcing Slayer to blink to the entrance and walk in to do his dirty work. 

4. Slayer kills lots of the wolves Perrin has set to guard the entrance every time he drops in to the PoD.

 

How the hell did Slayer totally miss Thom hanging around at the entrance to the Pit of Doom in his loud-assed Gleeman's cloak?

 

 

Edited by Monkeyfister

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Here's another question:

 

If you were a female Channeler going to barren, rocky Shayol Ghul to fight the Last Battle to save the entire world, would you...

 

  1. Wear your finest gown of yellow or blue fabric, and fine, delicate slippers? Or...
  2. Bite the bullet on your pride, and wear something more practical like a Cadin'sor to be more stealthy and blend in to the surroundings?

Are Moridin and Shai'tan the gay maven critics from "In Living Color"? Were the women afraid of getting dissed in the "Z-Formation" for dying in those clothes?

 

Utterly OT: I am not only glad that this is the last of the WoT books, but I think I am going to just stop reading Brandon Sanderson entirely. Mistborn Trilogy was OK, Warbreaker was a comic relief book, but the first 300 pages Way Of Kings didn't provide a single character to care about, and no reason to commit to wanting to read the rest. He was not the author to finish this series. L.E. Moddesit might have even been a better choice, if available and willing. Sanderson had one good story in him, and it seems that was it. Some authors are just like that.

 

Yes, RJ often portrayed his characters as blinkered to the point of fault, and often set them to full retard mode. But Sanderson turned that FRM unit to 11, and then fired up the dilithium crystals to super-drive mode.

Edited by Monkeyfister

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OK. Here's a question.

 

1. Thom decides to come along to Shayol Ghul. (We'll leave the whole question of why he was allowed to go in the first place alone, and accept the fact on its face.)

 

Why would that be a question? He's Moiraine's Warder, that's why he was allowed to go.

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OK. Here's a question.

 

1. Thom decides to come along to Shayol Ghul. (We'll leave the whole question of why he was allowed to go in the first place alone, and accept the fact on its face.)

 

Why would that be a question? He's Moiraine's Warder, that's why he was allowed to go.

 

 

This was a parenthetical, with qualifier: (We'll leave the whole question of why he was allowed to go in the first place alone, and accept the fact on its face.)

 

The Big BOLDED question at the bottom is what needs to be answered. Slayer shows up several times after Perrin plants the Dreamspike forcing Slayer to walk into the entrance. How did non-channeling, not-very combatant Thom, in is Loud-assed patchwork Gleeman's cloak, escape Slayer's notice?

 

To answer YOUR question, Rand ruled-out Min coming to Shayol Ghul, he really SHOULD have ruled-out Thom coming, as Rand ALWAYS had heavy remorse for Thom's sacrifice and injury at Whitebridge. He wouldn't let Thom come knowing that he could face another Mrydhraal, or more, or worse on a "just because-- Gleeman's stories!!!" basis. That's nonsense, and bad writing. 

 

 

Edited by Monkeyfister

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Can anyone identify the one opportunity when Taim's operatives had the opportunity to steal the seals?

 

Somewhere between Rand stashing them, and his handing the parcel to Egwene, or when Egwene set them aside? 

 

There was that time when Tobraine and others were attacked out of the blue, and such. 

 

Was that the putsch for the Seals?

 

 

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OK. Here's a question.

 

1. Thom decides to come along to Shayol Ghul. (We'll leave the whole question of why he was allowed to go in the first place alone, and accept the fact on its face.)

 

Why would that be a question? He's Moiraine's Warder, that's why he was allowed to go.

 

 

This was a parenthetical, with qualifier: (We'll leave the whole question of why he was allowed to go in the first place alone, and accept the fact on its face.)

 

The Big BOLDED question at the bottom is what needs to be answered. Slayer shows up several times after Perrin plants the Dreamspike forcing Slayer to walk into the entrance. How did non-channeling, not-very combatant Thom, in is Loud-assed patchwork Gleeman's cloak, escape Slayer's notice?

 

Slayer was in T'A'R. Thom wasn't. Outside of the Pit realities may not have merged enough for any crossover at that point.

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OK. Here's a question.

...

 

How the hell did Slayer totally miss Thom hanging around at the entrance to the Pit of Doom in his loud-assed Gleeman's cloak?

Yeah, as I understand it Slayer has as of yet only tried meddling in the battle from the TAR side of things. Thom is in the "real" blight.

 

About that: Anyone else confused about the fact that the blight even exists in TAR? Quote from RJ: 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 9th, 1996 QUESTION
Tell us about the Blight.
ROBERT JORDAN
You can not enter it from Tel'aran'rhiod because it is apart from NORMAL UNIVERSE and can not be touched. The Blight is not part of the normal universe.

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They're not in the blight. They're in the blasted lands. And the pattern has been weakening enough that parts of the blight were actually showing up in random parts of the normal universe several books ago. It's weakened so much around Shayol Ghul that you can almost walk from Tel'aran'rhiod to the real world Shayol Ghul without a gateway.

 

What I think makes no sense is that Perrin can enter the dream void from Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh. That's just silly.

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