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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Has Saidin ever been tainted before?


goksekor
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There is no reason to believe that every age is this similar every time it comes around. There are many ways the world could have been fractured after Lews Therin's attack, without Saidin being tainted. I believe that every AoL time period ends with the world fractured and lost to a degree, but it is not necessary for the taint to be present for that to happen.

 

Granted the taint is probably the defining characteristic of the age we read about, but the result, fractured society, may have resulted if some of the less knowledgeable Forsaken survived, or something similar. Maybe the Trolloc Wars had happened earlier.

 

Depending on how many rotations there have been, then maybe it happened before, but I am hoping it's not every time, otherwise we are just watching actors with limited free will.

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Well we know from far away it's similar but per RJ:

 

Interview: Nov 30th, 2000

WH Signing Report - Matt Peck (Paraphrased)

Matt Peck

I asked that as the Wheel turned, each time an Age rolls around, is the Pattern exactly the same each time, or does it change?

Robert Jordan

He seemed to like this question. He likened it to a tapestry. When seen from a distance, each Third Age (to make it easy to track) has exactly the same pattern as the previous Third Age. However, when seen up close, there are differences. Threads are different, different nations exist, geography is different, different personalities rise to prominence. These changes, while minute in the grand scale of the Pattern, affect the Pattern enough so that while two iterations of an Age are almost the same, the first "Third Age" may be wildy different from the hundredth "Third Age".

Also I agree about with some of your thoughts on the taint. Edited by Suttree
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I dont see how the taint can be a "defining characteristic" of the age.  It is on the Source, not the Pattern.  Perhaps I am wrong in thinking the Pattern and Source are distinct things, but the descriptions of it being the thing that drives the wheel, it makes me think of a separate thing.

 

It could be that the taint is present in ever third age, but it wouldn't have to be and wouldn't be the defining characteristic.  The age would follow a very similar path without it, maybe fewer Ta'veren needed to counter the influence of the taint.  Something like Mordeth's whatchamacallit could be, but I dont see how the taint could be a constant.

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@Sutree: I like the Gokseeker one as well.. Goku, Gokseeker.. good stuff going on :) And I do realize it was not an actual quote, I was just trying to be sarcastic since I was asking for quotes in the first message. Now that I read it after your post, I think I overdid it :) As I said, this is like my gut feeling that there has to be something special about this age. I want something drastic to happen (exactly along the lines what shortkut said) so that it takes this 3rd Age apart from all of the rest. But again, thats just my thoughts and gut feeling.

 

The reason why I am insisting can be summed up like this: The taint issue might be why DO is raving like "I will destroy the wheel of time, blind the eye of the world etc". This time around he thinks like he is going to win for sure, since half of the big guns(the Dragon included) is out of the picture or unreliable guns which can backfire any time, but he can grant invincibility to this effect for his guys. And since the taint is cleansed now, with the only observable after effect on the current Dragon having the personal experiences of the previous one, the bigguns are back in the picture again for the good guys. There is also the wildcard Fain issue with some heavy implications with reference to how Saidin gets cleansed via Shadar Logoth. I am not saying there can not be wild cards in previous last battles, I am just saying these might be somewhat related. I personally dont like Fain replacing DO theories, but the growing hatred of Fain for both Rand and DO is repeated over and over again during the course of the books. It is almost obvious that he will play an important role in LB. When I add these up with my gut feeling that "something special has to happen", it adds up to The Last Battle instead of a Last Battle, at least for me.

 

Cheers,

G.

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I'm not sure one way or another. Saidar and Saidin are the forces keep the Wheel of Time and the Pattern moving. I seriously doubt having one of the major forces of Creation tainted is good for the pattern, kind of like mixing sugar in with petrol (gasoline). If the Creator made the Pattern that would be soaked if the Taint I would concider it a major design flaw.

 

This age (especially as it ends) has brought up either really old things (Wolfbrothers) and new things (Mins aura visions) This could be a sign that the Wheel is close to breaking

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Theres nothing saying Min's visions aren't just something forgotten, like how dreaming isn't just for channelers.

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"No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless... Except for the fact that after this turning we have linear time/the dark one is destroyed/the dark one wins the final victory... But please keep reading my books everyone" - RJ

 

The intention of the Dark One is to destroy the Wheel though, which has always been the case, if it's a linear ending, then either the Dragon wins, or time stops completely and the world is destroyed because if the Dark One actually wins the Last Battle, he has the power to destroy all of creation.

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The reason why I am insisting can be summed up like this: The taint issue might be why DO is raving like "I will destroy the wheel of time, blind the eye of the world etc". This time around he thinks like he is going to win for sure, since half of the big guns(the Dragon included) is out of the picture or unreliable guns which can backfire any time, but he can grant invincibility to this effect for his guys. And since the taint is cleansed now, with the only observable after effect on the current Dragon having the personal experiences of the previous one, the bigguns are back in the picture again for the good guys. There is also the wildcard Fain issue with some heavy implications with reference to how Saidin gets cleansed via Shadar Logoth. I am not saying there can not be wild cards in previous last battles, I am just saying these might be somewhat related. I personally dont like Fain replacing DO theories, but the growing hatred of Fain for both Rand and DO is repeated over and over again during the course of the books. It is almost obvious that he will play an important role in LB. When I add these up with my gut feeling that "something special has to happen", it adds up to The Last Battle instead of a Last Battle, at least for me.

 

Cheers,

G.

 

 

 

"No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless... Except for the fact that after this turning we have linear time/the dark one is destroyed/the dark one wins the final victory... But please keep reading my books everyone" - RJ

 

The intention of the Dark One is to destroy the Wheel though, which has always been the case, if it's a linear ending, then either the Dragon wins, or time stops completely and the world is destroyed because if the Dark One actually wins the Last Battle, he has the power to destroy all of creation.

 

From my understanding, the DO cares little about any particular age or person. The DO is no more evil than a nuclear missile is evil. The nature of the DO is to bring chaos and disorder; to destroy what has been made. He has no desire for supreme leadership or to rule for eternity - its not his nature. If the DO wins, he breaks the Wheel, destroys the pattern and ends time-as-we-know-it. Does anyone really think that he will bother to recreate and rebuild the world in his own nature? His servants, his human antagonists are extremely selfish and desire power over all others. The wickedness and evil you find as a result of the DO's influence is just that: a result, a byproduct of chaos and disorder. 

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Another thing: Why was channeling necessary for everything to run smoothly in the AoL? Didn;t they have electricity, gas, subways, etc? Sure, channeling can do stuff that electricity does not; the whole tale of 'Lenn riding to the moon in the belly of an eagle of fire' is clearly a reference to the Apollo space program; whats to say they didnt do more of space travel in the AoL?

Another thing: Why was channeling necessary for everything to run smoothly in the AoL? Didn;t they have electricity, gas, subways, etc? Sure, channeling can do stuff that electricity does not; the whole tale of 'Lenn riding to the moon in the belly of an eagle of fire' is clearly a reference to the Apollo space program; whats to say they didnt do more of space travel in the AoL?

 

Well we can only guess, but my theory would be that a lot of their technology was either created using channeling or relied on the OP in some way to function. Think of it in the same way that we rely on electricity for so many things. Didn't RJ say that discovering the ability to channel was a large part of what precipitated the shift into the AOL from the age before? So it makes sense that channeling was heavily tied into their technological and social development.

 

As for space, again it's impossible to say, but given that they never mention it as being something that happened in the AOL, not in the World of... books, or through the myths that were passed down, or through the Forsaken's rants about how primitive the third age is, I think it's a fair assumption that it either didn't happen in the AOL, or it wasn't common or publically known. With everything they remembered, I find it hard to imagine that they'd forget something as huge as space travel.

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this may not be the right thread for this post, but oh well.

 

So, When LTT sealed the bore using Saidin, the DO did his counterstroke and tainted Saidin. LTT seemed to believe that if Saidin and Saidar were used together, they would somehow magically seal the bore and not allow the DO to counter. I don't believe that. Saidin was tainted because it is touching the dark one. If Saidar were used in conjuntion, then both would be touching the dark one and both would be susceptible to the taint.

 

Rand does have access to another power. One that is incredibly powerful, and could theoretically seal the bore while not allowing Saidin or Saidar to touch the DO.

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this may not be the right thread for this post, but oh well.

 

So, When LTT sealed the bore using Saidin, the DO did his counterstroke and tainted Saidin. LTT seemed to believe that if Saidin and Saidar were used together, they would somehow magically seal the bore and not allow the DO to counter. I don't believe that. Saidin was tainted because it is touching the dark one. If Saidar were used in conjuntion, then both would be touching the dark one and both would be susceptible to the taint.

 

And you're right. RJ has said that if both saidin and saidar had been used they both would have been tainted.

 

On the other hand I don't believe LTT ever claimed that saidin would have been protected had saidar been present as well. In fact no oned even believed it was possible for the DO to taint saidin, it was completely unexpected. However it's possible that the seal would have been stronger had both been used, and Rand certainly believes that both must be used this time around.  

 

Rand does have access to another power. One that is incredibly powerful, and could theoretically seal the bore while not allowing Saidin or Saidar to touch the DO.

You mean the TP right? Some believe that's the key, but personally I very much doubt it. The TP comes from the DO and I don't think Rand could use his own power against him. Also I think RJ said the TP wasn't really more powerfull than saidin and saidar, just different.

Edited by Master Ablar
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Doesn't the DO have more or less complete control over who can use the TP, and how much? He'd just have to cut off Moridin (and through him, Rand) and then they'd be back where they started.

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I cannot wait for the big "how Rand re-seals the prison" reveal. I hope it lives up to 13 books of build up. It can't be a combination of Saidin and Saidar, as that has been said to cause both to taint. So, how? Some have suggested something to do with the Song and the Way of the Leaf (which I hope doesn't happen, as that is just too touchy-feely, also no Nyms, only Ogiers). Others have said Fain will somehow be the buffer, though RJ has said the DO would chew Fain up and spit him out 'cuz he tastes bad. How do you magically seal a prison without using the only known form of magic? I'm just really excited to learn the "How". Though, I am a little disappointed the eBook format won't come out for a little while longer.

Edited by Whizbang
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