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DRAGONMOUNT

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Day 18 spoilers


Terez
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  1. 1. Who is Tuon's new Truthspeaker?

    • Selucia. She's just making the announcement again.
      7
    • Nynaeve
      11
    • Setalle Anan
      31
    • Tylee
      0
    • Min
      1
    • Moiraine
      4
    • Egeanin
      3
    • Berelain
      2
    • Graendal
      4
    • Moghedien
      0
    • Egwene
      5
    • Cadsuane
      2
    • Suffa
      1
    • Other
      8
    • Undecided
      6


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Yeah, I just don't see any scenario in which the female AS don't undergo radical change as well. It's already been set up, they have taken their lumps and had their foundations shaken to the core. I see it as finding a new road map moving forward based on mutual experience after working closely together during TG. Doesn't really bother if they move into Elaida's palace...

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It's not 'too easy' if they decide to be friends. The Aes Sedai have had a while now to get used to the idea of male channelers. Ever since they learned about Toveine's expedition. There have been multiple bondings, and interestingly many of them have happened independently of each other. The changes are already being made, and those with hardcore prejudices are probably getting fewer and fewer. And a significant percentage of the Red was taken care of in the Purge...

 

Also, keep in mind that Egwene and Logain have a history, and it's a good one. I don't know that they will necessarily end up as one organization, but I think they will have a good working relationship at least. Much like the Tower now has with other groups of female channelers.

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I just don't want things to happen too easily. Human beings are really stubborn about things like this, for the most we tend to fight change even when it's inevitable. The Aes Sedai have 3,000 years of ingrained discrimination against men in their system to overcome. That isn't meant as an insult, I'm not saying every Aes Sedai is sexist, but their system has a clear bias in this direction. Aes Sedai are trained to think they are better than everyone around them. That's what all this serenity nonsense is all about, they learn to think that they stand beyond the concerns of regular people and in their world view the only equals they have are a few other women. Men at best are the hired help. By the same token the men will have to overcome a 3,000 year old inferiority complex. Like every other group that has been discriminated against the men will have to struggle to gain equal standing with the Aes Sedai. What I meant by knuckling under was the popular theory that the Asha'man will immediately become male Aes Sedai again after TG and move in the tower Elaida had built. Instead I believe the Asha'man should find their own place in the world first. They have to decide what their role in the world is and not just accept the role others give them. If their slogan is "Defend. Guard. Protect." they have to define what that actually means and make others believe it too.That's how things ought to be. And that struggle should take longer than the few weeks AMOL apart from the epilogue will cover.Same for the Seanchan view on channellers. It's a culture that has grown over 1,000 years. By rights it shouldn't disappear so quickly.

+10000000000000000

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I'm thinking the next step for Seanchan will be elevating damane to da'covale. Perhaps the leashing practice wont be entirely abolished, but maybe Elayne's wireless a'dam tech is given to them it could be a step towards giving the damane more freedom. I can see them reaching some sort of deal with Egwene/WT in regards to freeing damane that desire it (all previous AS possibly) and suspending further leashing.

 

@MA

Was waiting for that! ;)

I might have shed a tear reading that simply brilliant post.

lol

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Is the red Ajah now obsolete?

There numbers dropped after the BA purge and now they will have to find a new purpose obviously. In fact(rather ironically) I could see them taking a major role in the integration of  male/females post TG...

Edited by Suttree
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Is the red Ajah now obsolete?

There numbers dropped after the BA purge and now they will have to find a new purpose obviously. In fact(rather ironically) I could see them taking a major role in the integration of  male/females post TG...

Any reason to think their numbers dropped proportionally more than any other Ajah? We know that there were more black reds than any other Ajah, but that was simply because the Red Ajah is the largest.

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There were less than a thousand Aes Sedai around the time Rand started the Black Tower. From the BWB:

 

With a membership encompassing nearly one in five of Aes Sedai at the time of writing (an indication of the perceived importance of their primary task), the Red Ajah is certainly the largest.

 

So, less than two hundred Reds. 48 of them were Black, so that cut their number by a quarter or more. Toveine's party of 51 was more than half Red, and we know none of them were Black so the numbers don't overlap. Then there is Dumai's Wells, and more than half of those sisters were Red, though some of them were Black, namely Galina and Katerine. Only 12 of the 39 who were sent returned with Covarla, not including Katerine and others who might have come later like Hattori (not sure about her). Pevara's group was only 6, but that adds to the already significant losses, and so do the four who were at the Cairhienin rebels' camp in ACOS when the bubble of evil struck; at least one of them was killed, and in probability, all four. I'd say the Red is down to less than 100 members by now, 100 at most. Even if Pevara and Co. survive, they'll be changed by their experiences.

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I think that the most likely path for the Reds is to become the wing in charge of recruitment and policing. Getting out in the world and adding new sisters to the fold, and in acting as a police force with regards to channelers.

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I think that the most likely path for the Reds is to become the wing in charge of recruitment and policing. Getting out in the world and adding new sisters to the fold, and in acting as a police force with regards to channelers.

Same here.

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Not sure. I don't see the White Tower dying so much as becoming an aspect of the Empire (and not in a bad way). But I think the Ajahs are pretty pointless. I mean, WTF do Whites do all day? It's just a weird way of dividing up interests and responsibilities, and as many have observed, the Ajahs are basically just glorified college sororities. The ajah of the Age of Legends were cause-dedicated groups: numerous, specific, and sometimes temporary alliances. I don't necessarily see a return to the Age of Legends, but I would expect a new Age to bring change, and I like to think this would be one of them.

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Not sure. I don't see the White Tower dying so much as becoming an aspect of the Empire (and not in a bad way). But I think the Ajahs are pretty pointless. I mean, WTF do Whites do all day? It's just a weird way of dividing up interests and responsibilities, and as many have observed, the Ajahs are basically just glorified college sororities. The ajah of the Age of Legends were cause-dedicated groups: numerous, specific, and sometimes temporary alliances. I don't necessarily see a return to the Age of Legends, but I would expect a new Age to bring change, and I like to think this would be one of them.

I always considered the Whites a dumping ground for those Aes Sedai unsuited to the rigours of the outside world. There will be always such in a group as large and diverse as the Aes Sedai.

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I'd have to look into it more, but I don't think I've seen a major character, Other than Alviarin who was more Black, from the White. It seemed like a random color added to round it all out.

Edited by Ituralde's Bannerman
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Depends on your definition of major! We have Alviarin, Carlinya, and Seaine among the more important minor characters.

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Yeah, I just remembered Alviarin. I guess I mean that there deeds don't seem to have had an impressive impact on the story. The green are kick ass warriors, the Reds' deeds are numerous and have contributed so much to the story. The blues, obviously, Siuan and Moiraine, etc. The Browns are well established. The yellows less so. But White? All the Aes Sedai employ logic and calculation, the Whites don't seem to do much that distances themselves from the other Ajahs. The more I think about it, the more I agree that the lines between the Ajahs will be blurred, especially considering the influx of the Aiel Wise One initiates, the Windfinders, the Wilders, and (hopefully) the Seanchan.

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Umm, the Green think of themselves as kick ass warriors, mostly those in the Tower at the time of the attack, have been roughly disabused of such a notion. There are those like Kiruna, Cadsuane and Alanna who are out in the world, a la Moiraine, and those who have mostly remained in the Tower, a la Adelorna. Probably every Aes Sedai who hasn't remained cooped up and separate from the world are better fighters than the Green Tower bound Aes Sedai.

 

We have been given no indication that they are any better at combat than your average other Aes Sedai.

 

Whites strike me as the philosophy department of the Tower. I do not consider philosophy entirely relevant either but I took a couple of wonderfully well taught courses on argument construction that were part of the philosophy curriculum during my time in the criminology department.

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Umm, the Green think of themselves as kick ass warriors, mostly those in the Tower at the time of the attack, have been roughly disabused of such a notion. There are those like Kiruna, Cadsuane and Alanna who are out in the world, a la Moiraine, and those who have mostly remained in the Tower, a la Adelorna. Probably every Aes Sedai who hasn't remained cooped up and separate from the world are better fighters than the Green Tower bound Aes Sedai.

 

We have been given no indication that they are any better at combat than your average other Aes Sedai.

Disabused? Harldy, you can't draw any conclusions based on a middle of the night sneak attack against a split, BA riddled, forsaken influenced, Fain touched, Elaida lead WT. There is no military group in the known world that would do well under those circumstances. Hell, every Ajah was basically it's own armed encampment and sister's were being assaulted for walking alone in the wrong area! On top of that it is not true that most sisters spend all their time in the WT. At anytime a 1/3 is out in the world and that is constantly rotating. Every sister's room we see in the WT has momentos earnd from a log life out adventuring. In addition greens and their warders are patrolling the blight at all times which would give them a much bigger leg up on the other ajahs in battle. Bottom line the AS have taken their lumps and are set up for redemption at the LB from a fighting perspective. If they are as bad as some try to make out they would get straight up slaughtered at TG. Edited by Suttree
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Umm, the Green think of themselves as kick ass warriors, mostly those in the Tower at the time of the attack, have been roughly disabused of such a notion. There are those like Kiruna, Cadsuane and Alanna who are out in the world, a la Moiraine, and those who have mostly remained in the Tower, a la Adelorna. Probably every Aes Sedai who hasn't remained cooped up and separate from the world are better fighters than the Green Tower bound Aes Sedai.

 

We have been given no indication that they are any better at combat than your average other Aes Sedai.

Disabused? Harldy, you can't draw any conclusions based on a sneak attack against a split, BA riddled, forsaken influenced, Fain touched, Elaida lead WT. There is no military group in the known world that would do well under those circumstances. Hell, every Ajah was basically it's own armed encampment and sister's were being assaulted for walking alone in the wrong area! On top of that it is not true that most sisters spend all their time in the WT. At anytime a 1/3 is out in the world and that is constantly rotating. Every sister's room we see in the WT has momentos earnd from a log life out adventuring. In addition greens and their warders are patrolling the blight at all times which would give them a much bigger leg up on the other ajahs in battle. Bottom line the AS have taken their lumps and are set up for redemption at the LB from a fighting perspective. If they are as bad as some try to make out they would get straight up slaughtered at TG.

Its also important to remember how few Greens remained in the Tower. Most of them were outside with their best buds, the Blues. Min makes it absolutely clear that all the Blues and most of the Greens left when Siuan was deposed. And several of them stood apart from the conflict too. We don't know the numbers, but they were nowhere close to full strength. Probably 30-40 of them, is all. 

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I don't understand why nynaeve is a better choice than setalle since she has no where near the relationship with Tuon that setalle does. It makes no sense for Tuon to put that trust in nynaeve.

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Well, if Nynaeve does something miraculous (ie healing death), or saves Tuon's life, won't that kind of instill an immediate portion of trust on her?  To me, the quote seems to indicate that this person has just done something very momentous, which is why you get the "holy" addition.  Whatever that act is, it probably goes a long ways towards earning Fortuona trust, and thus being named the TruthSpeaker.  Which means that the character doesn't really have to have any history with Fortuona.  Although Nynaeve does, and Nynaeve's interactions with Fortuona were very strikingly similar to what a TruthSpeaker might say (speaking out against the Empress, educating her on other sides of the argument, etc).

 

The only real problem I have with Nynaeve is that I'm not sure if she'll live.  If she does, I do like her in this role a lot, as I am 100% positive than Lan Mandragoran is going to be dead at the end of aMoL, and she will be in need of a new role, and she does so love deflating those with big heads, and well, Empress of the biggest, baddest Empire fits that bill really well.

 

I don't like Moraine for this role, because, to be frank, she's gotta die.  Her and Thom both combined with Lan are the three primary guides to the protagonists early on in the story, and with any story with "coming of Age" themes, the old mentor has to fade (read usually die) in order to the protagonist to fully fulfill his destiny and be the "true" hero of the story.  As such, those three are pretty much guaranteed to die.

 

edit:

As an aside, I am kinda chuffed that I somehow managed to pre-empt the Quotemistress in two seperate posts recently lol.  Probably shouldn't be, but I am, so there. HA!

Edited by DaoineSidhe
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