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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Sentinel78

Using a Well to Seal the Bore

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I love this theory, I think it's fantastic and it makes a lot of sense. 

 

What has bugged me though is there really needs to be an explanation on Padan Fain and his type of evil.

It seems silly to me that each time the wheel turns and Saidin possibly gets tainted when they try to seal the Dark One that there then must be a Shadar Logoth to help cleanse the taint.

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I see some problems with this theory.

 

First and the biggest, Eye of the World is not a Well and cannot be refilled. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=173#2

Both Nynaeve's and Cadsuane's Wells contain only a small amount of saidar. There must be limits for a typical Well ter'angreal. I am doubtful one that contains enough Power to seal the Bore can be made.

I can't believe I missed that quote! I looked through the Eye related stuff in the interview database when writing that blog post. That definitely does it for Sentinel's idea that the Eye could be reused. But it still might be possible that Rand got hold of another Well (or created one during VoG). He handled a LOT of Power there. More than all those people who made the original Eye, I'm sure.

 

Second, for the most part the Eye seems to work very similarly to a Well. I don't think you can use an angreal and a Well at the same time. Both proccesses are very similar: you draw the Power through both. But we know Callandor is the key to Last Battle, it must be used. And the cover shows it is used in the Pit of Doom. Then again, you can use multiple angreal so that might be a non-issue.

I really don't see why a Well and an angreal can not be used at the same time.

 

Third, both saidin and saidar need to be used. So even with a Well for saidin, saidar is susceptible to the taint.

That's what I argued to Sentinel in the comments on my blog too especially in view of RJ's comments that both saidin and saidar would have been tainted if used together when LTT was sealing the Bore. But this might not be the case if Rand uses a different method than LTT which is very likely and is what Sentinel is suggesting.

 

 

Wow I never saw RJ's quote regarding the Eye either.  I thought I had read them all.  The best I can propose is that the AoL Aes Sedai Prophecied that a Well (or Well-equivalent) would be essential to rebuilding the Dark One's prison which is what prompted them to build the Eye, Ishy manipulated Rand into using the Eye to early and Rand will now need another Well (or non-rechargeable Well-equivalent like the Eye).  Basically, Rand just needs a buffered source of the OP, whether or not it's a Well.

 

Again, simply using a Well and doing what LTT did was not what I was suggesting.  I was merely suggesting that using a Well (or some other buffered indirect OP source that is not directly drawn from the True Source) could permit Rand to touch the Dark One without exposing saidin / saidar.  Rand might also use Fain / Mashadar as part of the prison, or may use the True Power in some way (which I sincerely doubt).  

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I love this theory. I've long held to the idea that the Eye existed for training the Dragon without him going insane, but I think this tops it. I'm not sure what some find hard to understand about using a well to touch the Dark One instead of a direct link to saidin at the True Source. However, if the Eye was for a one-time use only, I don't think this debunks the theory. Perhaps that explains more about why it was made, and more importantly why the Dark One wanted to "blind" it so badly. Even without the Eye, it may be key to Healing the bore.

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I like the concept that a well would protect against backlash--possibly even the unique situation with Callandor might play into this

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fain is what will touch the dark one, freeing up the one power and keeping it clean. the same way the source was cleansed, one evil consuming another

I've seen this one thrown round quite a lot, and whilst its a possibility it just seems too much of a cop out considering it's already been done.

I mean there's foreshadowing and then there's just repeating yourself

 

Firstly, it would not be repeating because the situation is not exactly the same. Fain would be used and not Mashadar and the method would be different too while using a somewhat similar idea. On the other hand, if RJ wanted to use the idea of using Fain's power to touch the DO but didn't explain in advance that this might be possible that would be a truly awful use of Deus Ex Machina at the culmination of the series.  Same goes for the idea that Rand might be resurrected by being pushed out of TAR the way Birgitte was. Explaining that it's possible beforehand is good writing.

 

Besides, RJ was not exactly against repeating himself. How many times did he bring the Forsaken from the dead?

Edited by herid

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fain is what will touch the dark one, freeing up the one power and keeping it clean. the same way the source was cleansed, one evil consuming another

I've seen this one thrown round quite a lot, and whilst its a possibility it just seems too much of a cop out considering it's already been done.

I mean there's foreshadowing and then there's just repeating yourself

 

Firstly, it would not be repeating because the situation is not exactly the same. Fain would be used and not Mashadar and the method would be different too while using a somewhat similar idea. On the other hand, if RJ wanted to use the idea of using Fain's power to touch the DO but didn't explain in advance that this might be possible that would be a truly awful use of Deus Ex Machina at the culmination of the series.  Same goes for the idea that Rand might be resurrected by being pushed out of TAR the way Birgitte was. Explaining that it's possible beforehand is good writing.

 

Besides, RJ was not exactly against repeating himself. How many times did he bring the Forsaken from the dead?

 

It also may not be a repeat scenario if the outcome is different while the metaphysics are the same.  When Rand was cleansing the taint, a giant black dome rose above Shadar Logoth, i.e., the taint.  the taint did not simply eat away at Shadar Logoth to create a crater.  The taint (i.e., the True Power) and Mashadar were like oil and water.  They'll annihilate each other if forced into contact, but by default they repel each other.  

 

If Fain / Mashadar simply canceled out the Dark One, that would be a repeat of the cleansing.  But if Fain / Mashadar were simply incorporated as some type of inner-True Power repellent part of the new Dark One's prison, creating a balance where the Dark One is repelled from the universe, that would be a new effect from an established metaphysical rule in Randland.

 

I don't really believe that's going to happen, but it wouldn't be a repeat if implemented in that manner.  Although that brings up the possibility that the Dark One is not actually the original Dark One, but a previous Fain-equivalent, and maybe there's another Dark One behind our Dark One, and another behind him, and so on, all the way down (although Fain is purportedly unique to any Age so probably not). 

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Fain is new to this turning, the theory is a pure sealing and linear time.

 

Fain maybe but is Shadar Logoth and/or Mashadar a new thing?

 

Because again it seems that to cleanse Saidin you need the evil of Shadar Logoth to filter it out.

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It wasn't a filter, it attracted the taint away from Saidin which is more like a magnet. Maybe Moiraine realized her folly and asked the snake and foxes how to go about refilling the Eye or another well like it.

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A Well can stop DO from pulling another "taint" but it cannot protect the seal itself. DO will simply "taint" the Saidin coming from Well and anything made of it will fail eventually. So no breaking, no men going crazy but seals are toast..not really a long term solution. But perhaps that is how it was before Mierin made a hole in some old seal from different age..

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Im not sure a well would really help. because them wielder would still go crazy, and as the Dark One already knows exactly what to do as soon as Saidin or Saidar touches him, he would send them insane and the bore could not be sealed.

 

I still think that the only way is to use the True Source the same way the original prison was made. This is something that no one thus far has been able to use, because they can only use one side or the other depending on their gender. Maybe this is something which makes the Dragon soul special? Can be forge a true union of Saidar and Saidin?

Edited by Morden

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A Well can stop DO from pulling another "taint" but it cannot protect the seal itself. DO will simply "taint" the Saidin coming from Well and anything made of it will fail eventually. So no breaking, no men going crazy but seals are toast..not really a long term solution. But perhaps that is how it was before Mierin made a hole in some old seal from different age..

it wouldnt protect the channeler either, and I very much doubt that sealing would be a quick and easy thing... so the taint would send them well and truly mad, whilst holding an incredibly powerful sa'angrael.

Edited by Morden

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A Well can stop DO from pulling another "taint" but it cannot protect the seal itself. DO will simply "taint" the Saidin coming from Well and anything made of it will fail eventually. So no breaking, no men going crazy but seals are toast..not really a long term solution. But perhaps that is how it was before Mierin made a hole in some old seal from different age..

it wouldnt protect the channeler either, and I very much doubt that sealing would be a quick and easy thing... so the taint would send them well and truly mad, whilst holding an incredibly powerful sa'angrael.

 

 

I considered that.  Rand has very specific protections against the Taint and the True Power at this point.  From my initial post:

 

 

 

But wait, the Dark One did not merely taint saidin, he also drove LTT completely nuts!  Yes, but the dark taint-tines protruding into Rand's brain from his tainted saidin use (detected by Nynaeve via Delving in ToM) are coated with Light, so Rand may actually be protected from future taint effects in a way that LTT never was...  

 

As far as the seals being weak due to being partially formed with tainted saidin, eh maybe.  I'm not saying this is gonna happen, my point was more that if LTT had tried this approach instead he would have had a better outcome.  I wasn't even suggesting the Well would be used to form Seals of any kind, just that it would could permit channeling around the Dark One without exposing saidin.  That's it.  As far as what the purpose of that channeling is, I was not suggesting anything.  Everyone seems to accept that channeling via Callandor is going to happen, and I was just saying that saidin drawn from a Well with Callandor would be safer than saidin drawn through the True Source.  Why risk another taint event?

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Remember there is no storywise need for the Seals to be perfect at then of AmoL. RJ said he would be leaving what would seem like a "hook" at the end of the series.

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 RJ said he would be leaving what would seem like a "hook" at the end of the series.

What are you referring to here? I can't recall any such statement, would be stoked if you could post the quote. Thanks.

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 RJ said he would be leaving what would seem like a "hook" at the end of the series.

What are you referring to here? I can't recall any such statement, would be stoked if you could post the quote. Thanks.

 

Specifically:

Interview: Aug 4th, 1996 Question
Are you going to conclude each plot? Little and big? (He really doesn't like when authors do this!)
Robert Jordan
No. I plan to leave some things left unanswered (Asmodean??? Arrgh!) I do not like it when other authors clean every little thread up. It is too clean. It isn't very realistic of problems, especially problems of this magnitude. They just don't always get solved. Also, I plan to leave the very last scene with a big hook leaving you with a great big question. (After he said this his wife looked at him and said, "Really?")
 

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Sutts, I am surprised! You have never heard of the Hook? 

 

There is a tag dedicated to the topic on the Theoryland database. There are several quotes (10 to be exact) regarding this, but I'll just put the most direct one for you. 

 

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 27th, 2003 ROBERT JORDAN
He added that there would be a "hook" at the end of the series (which he had planned since 1984). This hook would lead readers to believe that there would be a sequel after WOT. However, he was quite clear that that would not happen. He stated that he hated getting to the end of a good book only to discover that everything comes to an end. He wanted to leave the end open so that there would be more "juice" left in his characters. He said that all major and minor plot lines would come to an end, but his characters' lives will continue.

edit: ninja'd, so I'll provide a different quote :P 

Edited by Barid Bel Medar

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That quote is the only one where RJ said that the hook will be a big one. In all the other quotes including all the later ones he said it would be a small hook. I don't think it will be about the condition of the seals though. That would imply continuation of the story in far off future and the quotes suggest that RJ was talking about a more immediate sequel.

No idea what the hook could be. A surviving Forsaken?

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That quote is the only one where RJ said that the hook will be a big one. In all the other quotes including all the later ones he said it would be a small hook. I don't think it will be about the condition of the seals though. That would imply continuation of the story in far off future and the quotes suggest that RJ was talking about a more immediate sequel.

No idea what the hook could be. A surviving Forsaken?

Not the only one which implies it might be something big.

 

"Uhm, no, there is no possibility that it will never end. I will wrap up all of the major storylines, I will wrap up some of the minor storylines. Other minor storylines will be left hanging, and I'm going to do worse than that. I am going to set a hook in the last scene of the last book, that will make some people who don't believe what I say, think that I am setting up a sequel. What I am doing, what I will be doing, is trying to leave you with a view of a world that is still alive. One hope that some fantasies have is that when you reach the end of the book, or you reach the end of the trilogy, all the characters' problems are solved. All of the things that they have been doing are neatly tied of in a bow, all of their world's problems have been solved. And there's no juice left, there's no life left. you think 'I ought to set this world on a shelf and put a bell-jar on top of it, to keep the dust off."

 

Could be a hint about the new seal not being perfect.

Edited by Zorlon

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Firstly, I agree with Sentinel that there won't be any Seals involved. The method used will different from the one LTT used. Why should it be the same? That one didn't work. And when the Bore was drilled in the AOL there were no Seals present. The Bore was patched but there were no Seals. I agree that the sealing will not be perfect and there will come a time in some distant future when the Bore will be reopened again. But we know that already. That won't be any kind of hook. RJ said that the hook will make it look that the lives of the current characters go on in an interesting way.

 

 

 

 

Interview: Jan 27th, 2003

Réal Heppelle

I just came back from the Toronto signing. All the details from the other book signings are the same except that there was no Q & A from the crowd. We were told he would take questions but he arrived 15 minutes late.

Robert Jordan

He added that there would be a "hook" at the end of the series (which he had planned since 1984). This hook would lead readers to believe that there would be a sequel after WOT. However, he was quite clear that that would not happen. He stated that he hated getting to the end of a good book only to discover that everything comes to an end. He wanted to leave the end open so that there would be more "juice" left in his characters. He said that all major and minor plot lines would come to an end, but his characters' lives will continue

 

Edited by herid

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It would be great if he could fill the eye back up with the True Power and access it whilst at SG but that's just me thinking crazy.

 

Back on topic : i liked reading this theory but I don't see it being possible and I also think it rhymes to much with prior events so if it did happen like this I'd be a bit miffed. It would be a good story in another age maybe, a nice rhyme that would fit in the larger wheel of time theme.

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Ahh my bad, now that its posted I recall the quote well. I've often cited the not wrapping up story lines and wanting characters to continue on part. Thanks for the quote and jogging my memory Zorlon!

Edited by Suttree

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Im not sure a well would really help. because them wielder would still go crazy, and as the Dark One already knows exactly what to do as soon as Saidin or Saidar touches him, he would send them insane and the bore could not be sealed.

 

I still think that the only way is to use the True Source the same way the original prison was made. This is something that no one thus far has been able to use, because they can only use one side or the other depending on their gender. Maybe this is something which makes the Dragon soul special? Can be forge a true union of Saidar and Saidin?

 

I think the veins of gold could protect rand from the taint as we saw earlier that for every thorn of madness in Rand's mind there was a thorn of light to fight it so he very well could be protected from the backlash

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Im not sure a well would really help. because them wielder would still go crazy, and as the Dark One already knows exactly what to do as soon as Saidin or Saidar touches him, he would send them insane and the bore could not be sealed.

 

I still think that the only way is to use the True Source the same way the original prison was made. This is something that no one thus far has been able to use, because they can only use one side or the other depending on their gender. Maybe this is something which makes the Dragon soul special? Can be forge a true union of Saidar and Saidin?

 

I think the veins of gold could protect rand from the taint as we saw earlier that for every thorn of madness in Rand's mind there was a thorn of light to fight it so he very well could be protected from the backlash

 

 

Perhaps, but Rand will be linked with 2 women, what would protect them? 

 

The real question though is simple. How can man recreate the work of the creator? because that is the only way to truly seal the bore. To me using Saidar/Saidin and just slapping a band-aid on it will not be enough. Because essentially they need to re-weave the pattern so that the bore no longer exists.

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There's something about Callandor and Light that makes me wonder if this isn't all going to boil down to Rand crawling through SG to shine a big bright light at the DO and wall him off with pure light, blinding him in his prison. Sight Blinder. All Callandor has done is shine like crazy and his efforts at Maradon used Light almost exclusively. Something about the Light makes the Darkfriends go crazy.

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