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Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal)

  

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So this Cads v. Nyn debate went on for a bit a couple years back. New info from the notes to take into account.
 

Terez ‏@Terez27 14h
Something RJ didn't make terribly clear in the books: Cadsuane is stronger then Egwene and Elayne at full potential.


Terez ‏@Terez27 14h
@Jcothra1 Yup, only Nynaeve beats her, and Sharina of course.


Terez ‏@Terez27 14h

Also, the 21-scale appears to be only for Aes Sedai, and the supergirls are all off the scale, indicated by +x
Edited by Suttree

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So this Cads v. Nyn debate went on for a bit a couple years back. New info from the notes to take into account.

 

Terez ‏@Terez27 14h

Something RJ didn't make terribly clear in the books: Cadsuane is stronger then Egwene and Elayne at full potential.

Merana explicitly states the opposite, I think, when she says that no one matched Cadsuane's potential, much less exceeded it, till Elayne Trakand came to the Tower.

 

But Terez says this was in the late notes, and RJ apparently felt he had leeway since no one had seen Cadsuane in so long (except Merana met her, and had felt her strength, and had also clearly met Elayne, so this is pretty confusing). That leads me to ask... hoe much stronger? And if these women are all so bunched together, and all well above the 21-level list (which is Aes Sedai only, apparently), how much do these strength differences matter? Remember, Nynaeve wasn't able to shield Elayne...

 

ETA: So RJ changed his mind:

 

From Terez: Ha, scratch what I said about Cadsuane yesterday. Now there is *more* conflicting info. :)

Just guessing, but Maria probably pointed out to RJ that he had said Elayne and Egwene were the strongest in 1000 years, so he changed it.

 
So we're back to Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha being stronger than Cadsuane. And since only Nynaeve and Sharina were stronger than her in the part of the notes where she exceeds them, I think its a good bit of conformation that all these upper levels aren't really as spread out as we speculated.
 
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Edited by fionwe1987

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Cheers for that fionwe. Good to see you popping back in!

 

In knowing that, it makes the case pretty cut and dry for Cads imo. Pretty much the only argument for Nyn closing the wide gap in skill was the power level differential.

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So I asked Terez about OP strength:

 

 

 

So given OP strength fluidity, are all Egwene, Nynaeve and Cadsuane pretty close in strength?
 

Terez replied:

Very.

So its not a vast spread of strength between these women. Which just explains so much.

 

 

 

That kind of makes the comparison of "a bonfire to a candle" between Nyneave and Egwene and Elayne, a bit ridiculous doesn't it? Also the 21 is still just Aes Sedai right, so is Cadsuane on it?

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So I asked Terez about OP strength:

 

 

 

So given OP strength fluidity, are all Egwene, Nynaeve and Cadsuane pretty close in strength?
 

Terez replied:

Very.

So its not a vast spread of strength between these women. Which just explains so much.

 

 

 

That kind of makes the comparison of "a bonfire to a candle" between Nyneave and Egwene and Elayne, a bit ridiculous doesn't it? 

 

It always was, what with Nynaeve being unable to shield Elayne and all. If there really was such a difference, there's no way she'd have trouble.

 

 

Also the 21 is still just Aes Sedai right, so is Cadsuane on it?
Apparently not. Terez says Cadsuane, the Wondergirls, etc. are marked as 21+x. Its clear the 21 level list was specifically used to figure out Aes Sedai relationships. Cadsuane was never going to be in the deference game anyway, so she was not in that list. 

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Apparently not. Terez says Cadsuane, the Wondergirls, etc. are marked as 21+x. Its clear the 21 level list was specifically used to figure out Aes Sedai relationships. Cadsuane was never going to be in the deference game anyway, so she was not in that list. 

 

Any idea if Meilyn and Kerene is marked as 21+x?

 

I always found it puzzling Cadsuane said it was a sharp drop from their strength to Siuan/Moiraine/Romanda/Lelaine/Elaida's strength. 

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So I asked Terez about OP strength:

 

 

 

So given OP strength fluidity, are all Egwene, Nynaeve and Cadsuane pretty close in strength?
 

Terez replied:

Very.

So its not a vast spread of strength between these women. Which just explains so much.

 

 

 

That kind of makes the comparison of "a bonfire to a candle" between Nyneave and Egwene and Elayne, a bit ridiculous doesn't it? Also the 21 is still just Aes Sedai right, so is Cadsuane on it?

 

Might the bonfire to the candle be a reflection of Nynaeve having already reached her potential (Through years of being able to channel) versus Egwene/Elayne being newer to it?

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Apparently not. Terez says Cadsuane, the Wondergirls, etc. are marked as 21+x. Its clear the 21 level list was specifically used to figure out Aes Sedai relationships. Cadsuane was never going to be in the deference game anyway, so she was not in that list. 

 

Any idea if Meilyn and Kerene is marked as 21+x?

 

I always found it puzzling Cadsuane said it was a sharp drop from their strength to Siuan/Moiraine/Romanda/Lelaine/Elaida's strength. 

 

There's further news on this front:

 

The original 21 level list was Aes Sedai only, and level 1 was Moiraine/Elaida/Siuan etc. This was later expanded to a 33 level Aes Sedai-only list, where level 1 was again Elaida, and Daigian was level 33. 

 

There is a larger list of about 66 levels. In this list, Elaida is in level 13. Levels 1-12 are women stronger than Elaida, with Lanfear at level 1. Levels 34-66 are women too weak to be AS, with Moiraine after her time with the Finns being roughly at level 66 (she's so weak that under normal circumstances, she'd rarely be able to reach the Source, like Morghase). 

 

What is important to know that not even Sorelia is at the bottom-most rung. Someone at her level is rare, but there are much weaker women who're rarer. Same with Elaida, who's rare, but not so much as women like Meilyn, let alone Cadsuane or Egwene.

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very interesting.

 

  1. Did not realised moraine was so significantly de powered
  2. I am now more curious what the threshold from angreal to Sa'angreal is - it implies that bracelet gave moraine more than 53 times her strength based on that later chart
  3. It makes a lot more sense with more levels below daigian.
  4. Wonder if this mean meilyn is at least 2 levels above Elaida

Thanks fionwe

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very interesting.

 

  1. Did not realised moraine was so significantly de powered
  2. I am now more curious what the threshold from angreal to Sa'angreal is - it implies that bracelet gave moraine more than 53 times her strength based on that later chart
  3. It makes a lot more sense with more levels below daigian.
  4. Wonder if this mean meilyn is at least 2 levels above Elaida

Thanks fionwe

1) Yup. It was hard to tell exactly how much from the books.

2) Moiraine does say hers is almost a sa'angreal.

3) Yes.

4) Almost certainly. Cadsuane is almost as strong as Egwene, and I'd say Meilyn is almost as strong as Cadsuane, since she easily rebukes Elaida in New Spring and Elaida takes it without any hint of a challenge.

 

 

Cheers for the update, this is very interesting. It basically changes everything we fans thought we knew about power levels. 

To some, sure. I don't pretend to have known the details, but I always argued Daigian wouldn't be as weak as everyone claimed she was, and that Egwene and co were a lot closer to Lanfear than people assumed, too. 

 

There's some more interesting tidbits to lend credence to some of this:

 

1) While there has been no mention of actual values of strength for each level, there was apparently a very clear scale which explained the relationship between strength in the Power and life expectancy of a channeler. This scale is "purely linear", and the same number of years is added to life expectancy as you go up each level in strength. This holds throughout the 66 levels. Firstly, this indicates the strength scale is also linear, not some scale where the upper reaches are exponentially stronger.

 

2) In this life-expectancy scale, there's apparently not much difference between the women occupying the 12 levels above Elaida, or even between them and Elaida. However there is three times that gap between Elaida and Daigian level channelers (this is second hand info, so grain of salt and all that). If this ends up being true, it also follows that the gap between Lanfear (or some other super strong woman who's in the 12 levels above Elaida) and Elaida is only 1/3rd of the gap between Elaida and Daigian.

 

3) Given the bell curve distribution in strength, this pretty much guarantees that Elaida is at least 50% as strong as Lanfear. She's likely much stronger, and 50% Lanfear's strength is probably the level occupied by a medium strength Aes Sedai, like Verin (pure speculation on who occupies that spot, btw). 

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A lot of things become clearer with that info.

 

The scene with AS shielding Semi. I vaguely remember thinking BS may have been wrong in the scene when Cadsuane thought that 2 sisters should normally be enough to hold a shield (at that point Daigian was 1 of the 3 holding the shield). Sure there was all that talk about links making things more focus and whats not, but it still sounded ludicrous at that time. On that new scale (grain salt & all) it sounds fairly comfortable for 2 Daigian's to hold a shield over any female forsaken.

 

I know I am randomly dribbling. But a lot of random things start to click in place.

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A lot of things become clearer with that info.

 

The scene with AS shielding Semi. I vaguely remember thinking BS may have been wrong in the scene when Cadsuane thought that 2 sisters should normally be enough to hold a shield (at that point Daigian was 1 of the 3 holding the shield). Sure there was all that talk about links making things more focus and whats not, but it still sounded ludicrous at that time. On that new scale (grain salt & all) it sounds fairly comfortable for 2 Daigian's to hold a shield over any female forsaken.

 

I know I am randomly dribbling. But a lot of random things start to click in place.

That scene never sounded ridiculous. Isphan and Faolain comfortably held a shield on Nynaeve in aCoS in the Rahad. Nynaeve may not have been at her full strength then, but she was close enough, and both those were fairly weak Aes Sedai.

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Ispan and Faolain were probably not that weak compared to most AS. They were stronger than average, I think. Daigian is very weak, and two of her could most likely not hold a Forsaken strength male, and maybe not even some female ones.

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Ispan and Faolain were probably not that weak compared to most AS. They were stronger than average, I think. Daigian is very weak, and two of her could most likely not hold a Forsaken strength male, and maybe not even some female ones.

They're not as week, but I don't see much evidence for them being all that strong either.

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Ispan and Faolain were probably not that weak compared to most AS. They were stronger than average, I think. Daigian is very weak, and two of her could most likely not hold a Forsaken strength male, and maybe not even some female ones.

 

Depending on the male, I don't know that I would even trust two strong female channelers. Rand breaks through a shield held by at least two sisters in Dumai wells. No indication that they were weak channelers.

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It will be interesting to see the details in the encyclopedia that Harriet and the others will publish. It's still to come out the end of this year, or has there been any changes on that?

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I want to say Nynaeve for both power and skill, it is written that she is stronger between them, but the books seem to indicate that for skill with the power Egwene was shown to receive the Seanchan teaching for war weaves, and what she does splitting flows post capture in the Tower at the "novice" classes, it is quite impressive.  However, she can't heal, and Nynaeve is unsurpassed by anyone save a woman among the Kin who does her weaves differently.  She saved Talmanes which was next to bringing a man back from the dead.  Skills are about even, with different strengths and weaknesses in their skill sets.  After all, Egwene has skill with earth and T'A'R and Cuendillar, Nynaeve healed both gentling and stilling.

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Nynaeve. Though i think Eggy more skilled in battle, so was Moggy when Nynaeve kicked her arse and she was only half trained then. I think power counts the most in these situations.

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Nynaeve would defeat Moggy, and that's something Egwene would not succeed in (if the were given equal conditions).

 

Nynaeve matched Moghedien in an arm wrestle, strength to strength, both locked in to a degree that allowed nothing else. And yes, if such a scenario occurred Nynaeve would defeat Egwene, again based on nothing but brutal strength. But the question was combat skills, not a combat of brute strength such as what occured between Moghedien and Nynaeve--such things are rare and stupid. It occurred only because Moghedien underestimated the Third Ager and allowed herself to be drawn in to such a confrontation--in effect by the time she realised her stupidity her strength was commited. This is not something Egwene would allow to happen. Her methodology--the entire nature of her arc, including her face-down with Nynaeve--was to learn to attack with care and precision. Indeed, her face-down was the defining point were she realized this lesson.

 

 

Incidentally, we don't know that Nynaeve would defeat Moghedien in a duel. We've never seen those two match skills. Strength, yes. And cunning. Nynaeve matched in one and won in the other (and would likely win in both now). But skill? We've not seen them matched in that--its part of why I look forward to a confrontation between the two in aMoL (for Nynaeve to defeat her on the level).

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