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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
David Selig

Elayne's personality

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There is zero evidence to support her thinking she is better than everyone and just wants everybody to admire her awesomeness. Total nonsense.

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There is zero evidence to support her thinking she is better than everyone and just wants everybody to admire her awesomeness. Total nonsense.

If anything, she's immensely self-critical, and the most likely to doubt herself among the three Wondergirls. Its why they become such close friends so soon.  Can anyone seriously see either Egwene or Nynaeve putting up with some self-involved princess?

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There is zero evidence to support her thinking she is better than everyone and just wants everybody to admire her awesomeness. Total nonsense.

Not that I agree with Jimbo's post ... but Mat would disagree with you Suttree. His thoughts were that Elayne thinks people would do as she says when she flashes her dimple or raise her chin.

 

 

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There is zero evidence to support her thinking she is better than everyone and just wants everybody to admire her awesomeness. Total nonsense.

Not that I agree with Jimbo's post ... but Mat would disagree with you Suttree. His thoughts were that Elayne thinks people would do as she says when she flashes her dimple or raise her chin.

Elayne's thoughts on Mat and treatment during that trip(also note she came around far before Nyn in doing what was right) were shaped largely by Eggy and Nyn. See her response to Rand falling of the wall and treatment of friends for her true character. As others have noted it is remarkable how much she isn't like what a few posters suggest given her upbringing. Edited by Suttree

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 Mat is quite biased against nobles and Aes Sedai. :wink:

 

 The first time Elayne used the famous dimple on Mat was because Egwene told her it's the best plan IIRC, back in TDR, not because she considers it so irresistible.

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It all boils down to the fact that she's GREEDY. She has Andor barely secured but NOOOO she can't stop with just that she has to go over and stick her face in the Cairhien cake too!

 

She's worst than Mat in Ma's sweet pies, maybe we should be less worried about the Dark One and the Seanchan and a little more worried about Elayne Trakand.

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Ok here - I just didnt like reading the chapters with the Lion or Rose of Andor signalling an "elayne" or "andor succession" chapter.

 

You can bash me all you want, but the two plotlines from hell imo were

 

1.  Faile's rescue mission

2.  Andor's throne thing.

 

I'm not a literary expert or a professor of writing, just an average book reader.  In my humble opinion, I could give the Perrin and Elayne chapters the Jar Jar Binks treatment and still get 90% - 99% or maybe 100% of the WoT story...because isnt the story about Mat?  I mean Rand.  haha.

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The summaries of the wheel of time by isam do a really good job of showing Elaine's personality, as well as other characters. Chin raise, chin raise, chin raise. She can do over 100 chin ups. ;)

Edited by JimboSlice

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There is zero evidence to support her thinking she is better than everyone and just wants everybody to admire her awesomeness. Total nonsense.

Not that I agree with Jimbo's post ... but Mat would disagree with you Suttree. His thoughts were that Elayne thinks people would do as she says when she flashes her dimple or raise her chin.

Elayne's thoughts on Mat and treatment during that trip(also note she came around far before Nyn in doing what was right) were shaped largely by Eggy and Nyn. See her response to Rand falling of the wall and treatment of friends for her true character. As others have noted it is remarkable how much she isn't like what a few posters suggest given her upbringing.

In teotw she isn't bad: after that her personality goes down hill.

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I vehemently disagree with the criticisms that Elayne is too arrogant and too condescending to commoners. Gain some historical perspective, the way she and Morgase treat commoners is almost too well to be believed. The High Lords and Cairhienen are a much better reflection of the way 17th century nobility behaved.

Edited by Charlz Guybon

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I vehemently disagree with the criticisms that Elayne is too arrogant and too condescending to commoners. Gain some historical perspective, the way she and Morgase treat commoners is almost too well to be believed. The High Lords and Cairhienen are a much better reflection of the way 17th century nobility behaved.

Indeed. Further to cite the Isam parodies or claim that after tEotW she was somehow much worse will not help in this debate at all. There is a large amount of evidence throughout the the text showing posters like Jimbo to be wrong. Going to have to ask people start providing specific quotes showing how they reached their views.

Edited by Suttree

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I vehemently disagree with the criticisms that Elayne is too arrogant and too condescending to commoners. Gain some historical perspective, the way she and Morgase treat commoners is almost too well to be believed. The High Lords and Cairhienen are a much better reflection of the way 17th century nobility behaved.

 

Part of the problem for me.   Our heroes are all country bumpkins, fairly down to earth.  Their tastes (in clothes for instance) elevate as they go along, but they are still 'good farm folk' at heart.

 

The royalty, entitlement, the condescending attitude, well I find it very trying...from all the nobility.

 

 

Might be understandable.  Might be inline with their characters.  Still rubs me the wrong way.

 

 

 

Might also be why my favorite characters are Mat, Thom, and Brigitte.  Their attitudes and personalities are sort of the opposite of the nobility.

Edited by Jak o' the Shadows

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Hi all. I am now re-reading the Wheel of Time series, up to Crossroads of Twilight now, and up untill this book I had not skipped any content, but at this point I had to give up and have started skipping all of Elaynes chapters. If I didn't know better, I would say she is a Darkfriend. That would at least mean that all her horrible decisions would have made sense.

 

My main gripe with her is this: she is extremely selfish. So selfish in fact that she is willing to let countless innocents (civilians, women, children) die just for her to feel good about herself. Rand was handing her the throne of Caemlyn and Caihrien. If she had accepted it, no one would have opposed her, no civil war in Andor where undoubtedly peoples lives were ruined and lost. Why did she refuse to take the throne from Rand? Because she wanted to "do it on her own", admirably maybe. But not when bloody Tamon gai'don is waiting right around the corner. She should have taken it all now, let her people live in peace up until the last battle (they probably would have been more ready to handle the Trolloc invasion of AMoL better in that case too), and then after TG she could do whatever she wants.

 

I hate her selfishness, her reasoning and I hate her.

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Hi all. I am now re-reading the Wheel of Time series, up to Crossroads of Twilight now, and up untill this book I had not skipped any content, but at this point I had to give up and have started skipping all of Elaynes chapters. If I didn't know better, I would say she is a Darkfriend. That would at least mean that all her horrible decisions would have made sense.

 

My main gripe with her is this: she is extremely selfish. So selfish in fact that she is willing to let countless innocents (civilians, women, children) die just for her to feel good about herself. Rand was handing her the throne of Caemlyn and Caihrien. If she had accepted it, no one would have opposed her, no civil war in Andor where undoubtedly peoples lives were ruined and lost. Why did she refuse to take the throne from Rand? Because she wanted to "do it on her own", admirably maybe. But not when bloody Tamon gai'don is waiting right around the corner. She should have taken it all now, let her people live in peace up until the last battle (they probably would have been more ready to handle the Trolloc invasion of AMoL better in that case too), and then after TG she could do whatever she wants.

 

I hate her selfishness, her reasoning and I hate her.

 

Welcome.

 

Be prepared for suttree...you're about to get an 'education' about how the politics of Andor work and how the people would have felt and reacted in the 'Rand hands her the throne' situation.  And why it wouldn't have worked.

Edited by Jak o' the Shadows

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I know all about how Andor works (or rather, how Elayne thinks it works), but given the circuimstances she should have waited for all of that politicking untill AFTER the Last Battle. It's all about priorities Elayne!

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@Jak

Lol...it's amazing how many people miss the undercurrents of this situation...

TPoD Ch28

You’ve come to accept the throne from the Dragon Reborn, then?”

“I claim the throne by my own right, Dyelin, with my own hand. The Lion Throne is no bauble to be accepted from a man.” Dyelin nodded, as at self-evident truth. Which it was, to any Andoran. “How do you stand, Dyelin? With Trakand, or against?

If she had said yes she was taking the throne from Rand, Dyelin would not have thrown her support for Elayne and she would never have gained the majority vote. The war would have been far bloodier and stretched out.

 

In addition before that he Andoran Nobles were ready to try and force Rand out had he stayed over long...

 

LoC

“I will wait and consider, my Lord Dragon. When I see Elayne alive and crowned, and you leave Andor, I will send my retainers to follow you whether anyone else in Andor does the same. But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I’ve heard they did in Cairhien and Tear”—she scowled at the Maidens and Red Shields, and the gai’shain too, as if she saw them looting and burning—“or you loose here those . . . men you gather with your amnesty, then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same.”

 

“And I will ride beside you,” Luan said firmly.

 

“And I,” Ellorien said, echoed by Abelle.

and the general populace wanted him gone and stressed the importance of Elayne doing it on her own...

 

TPoD

He’s one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from. Then Elayne can claim the throne her own self. If Dyelin lets her keep it, anyway.”

 

&

And even people who thought her mother had ruined the country and an end to the reign of House Trakand was good riddance still believed Rand al’Thor an invader. The Dragon Reborn was supposed to fight the Dark One at Shayol Ghul, and he should be driven out of Andor.

Add to this Bashere stating flat out that she couldn't use the Aiel or Rand's soldiers to take the throne or else she would never had solidified her rule and I hope you start to see it's not nearly as clear cut as her showing up and being named Queen by Rand.

 

Rand did not hold the country. He was Steward in Caemlyn which is far from holding Andor and no matter what he did she would still need to earn the votes. Had she announced her intention to accept the throne from him she would never have gained the houses or support from the general population and the war would have been worse

 

As for this nonsense about priorities with politics, because we have never seen her push back political aspirations to save the world? Oh wait, that's exactly what she did with the Bowl of Winds! Bottom line there needed to be a unified Andor for TG and Elayne accomplished that the only way she could.

Edited by Suttree

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I vehemently disagree with the criticisms that Elayne is too arrogant and too condescending to commoners. Gain some historical perspective, the way she and Morgase treat commoners is almost too well to be believed. The High Lords and Cairhienen are a much better reflection of the way 17th century nobility behaved.

 

I couldn't agree with you more.

 

Elayne is caring, selfless, and doesn't see herself inherently better then anyone unlike most every other Noble. When Nynaeve traveled with her Nynaeve always took the lead Elayne respected her ("a mere commoner") and to Elayne her royal subject.

 

All her risk taking can be attributed to her desire to experience life. Which as Daughter-heir she was very sheltered and had very little opportunity to do anything outside the palace without guards everywhere.

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Suttree" data-cid="2702386" data-time="1355409046"><p>

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Charlz Guybon" data-cid="2702174" data-time="1355393936"><p><br />

I vehemently disagree with the criticisms that Elayne is too arrogant and too condescending to commoners. Gain some historical perspective, the way she and Morgase treat commoners is almost too well to be believed. The High Lords and Cairhienen are a much better reflection of the way 17th century nobility behaved.</p></blockquote>

Indeed. Further to cite the Isam parodies or claim that after tEotW she was somehow much worse will not help in this debate at all. There is a large amount of evidence throughout the the text showing posters like Jimbo to be wrong. Going to have to ask people start providing specific quotes showing how they reached their views.</p></blockquote>

 

Sure, you can point out times that Elaine does something that is deserving of praise, but that doesn't change that she is arrogant and condescending. The way she treats Matt on the way to ebou dar is one example. There is no point after the first book when she is really a likable character as a whole. Sure, she might have helped get egwene out at falme, but her chin is still stuck in the clouds. There isn't one point in the series where she shows an ounce of humility. Even when she apologized to Matt it was just to please avienda and save a little face.

 

Maybe isam's summaries are a joke, but every joke is based on truth. The summaries are funny precisely because they reflect the content of the books. The way he portrays the characters is often how they behave. And more to the point of the current topic, his portrayal of Elaine is accurate atleast in as far as she pertains to his summaries. His portrayal might not be comprehensive, but it is still accurate because she does constantly have her chin raised as if she is superior to everyone else.

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Suttree" data-cid="2702386" data-time="1355409046"><p>

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Charlz Guybon" data-cid="2702174" data-time="1355393936"><p><br />

I vehemently disagree with the criticisms that Elayne is too arrogant and too condescending to commoners. Gain some historical perspective, the way she and Morgase treat commoners is almost too well to be believed. The High Lords and Cairhienen are a much better reflection of the way 17th century nobility behaved.</p></blockquote>

Indeed. Further to cite the Isam parodies or claim that after tEotW she was somehow much worse will not help in this debate at all. There is a large amount of evidence throughout the the text showing posters like Jimbo to be wrong. Going to have to ask people start providing specific quotes showing how they reached their views.</p></blockquote>

 

Sure, you can point out times that Elaine does something that is deserving of praise, but that doesn't change that she is arrogant and condescending. The way she treats Matt on the way to ebou dar is one example. There is no point after the first book when she is really a likable character as a whole. Sure, she might have helped get egwene out at falme, but her chin is still stuck in the clouds. There isn't one point in the series where she shows an ounce of humility. Even when she apologized to Matt it was just to please avienda and save a little face.

 

Maybe isam's summaries are a joke, but every joke is based on truth. The summaries are funny precisely because they reflect the content of the books. The way he portrays the characters is often how they behave. And more to the point of the current topic, his portrayal of Elaine is accurate atleast in as far as she pertains to his summaries. His portrayal might not be comprehensive, but it is still accurate because she does constantly have her chin raised as if she is superior to everyone else.

It is well established that she raises her chin when she gets angry, she doesn't "constantly" do so because she thinks she is superior. Further please read what has already been proven in thread. Her views on Mat were shaped by Nyn and Egwene. In fact once in Ebou Dar when she realized how wrong they had been SHE was the one who apologized first(which she did because she realized she was wrong) and had to practically drag Nyn to do the same. In addition Mat doesn't exactly have the most reliable views on AS and nobles. His comments are funny precisley because of how over the top they are. Finally it is laughable to say she never shows "an ounce of humility" in the series. So far you have done nothing to back up your point with proof all while showing a large amount of character bias.

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 If Elayne is so arrogant and condescending, how come it has been so easy for her to get people to like her and make friends throughout the books? Egwene, Nyn, Avi, Birgitte, Corin, Egeanin, Juilin, Nicola, Mother Guenna, etc. She was well liked in the circus and on the ship to Salidar,  Even Mat's soldiers on the Ebou Dar trip really liked her despite Mat's effort to the contrary.

 

 Yet all this is dismissed because Mat is by his own admission very biased against nobles and Aes Sedai.

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It all boils down to the fact that she's GREEDY. She has Andor barely secured but NOOOO she can't stop with just that she has to go over and stick her face in the Cairhien cake too!

Greedy? Really? Of course, greed is the only reason to want to secure your borders, bring peace, make ready for TG with the maximum possible forces rather than leaving them behind. Yes, absolutely all about greed, no measure of good sense or simple pragmatism. Elayne is the one who gets the full muster of Cairhien under way - if it wasn't for her, it would take longer to get going, so there would likely be fewer of them to fight, and not as well trained.

 

My main gripe with her is this: she is extremely selfish. So selfish in fact that she is willing to let countless innocents (civilians, women, children) die just for her to feel good about herself. Rand was handing her the throne of Caemlyn and Caihrien. If she had accepted it, no one would have opposed her, no civil war in Andor where undoubtedly peoples lives were ruined and lost. Why did she refuse to take the throne from Rand? Because she wanted to "do it on her own", admirably maybe. But not when bloody Tamon gai'don is waiting right around the corner. She should have taken it all now, let her people live in peace up until the last battle (they probably would have been more ready to handle the Trolloc invasion of AMoL better in that case too), and then after TG she could do whatever she wants.

There is no basis for claiming that no-one would have opposed her, or that there would be no civil war. Rand was in no position to give her the throne of Andor, as he didn't have it to begin with, and to have taken what he could offer would have undermined her and made her position untenable - which is not at all sensible in the run up to TG. How is Andor meant to fight in the LB if more than half the Houses refuse to come when she calls? What makes you think this could wait? Elayne's choices were either to abdicate immediately and support Dyelin, or fight the war and win before TG. Taking it from Rand was never an option in reality.

 

I know all about how Andor works (or rather, how Elayne thinks it works), but given the circuimstances she should have waited for all of that politicking untill AFTER the Last Battle. It's all about priorities Elayne!

Yes, but you haven't shown her priorities to be wrong. She could wait for the Last Battle, but that doesn't help when no-one else does - if she waits, then she loses the kingdom before TG at worst, or some time afterwards at best. You could call out other people for not waiting until after the Last Battle, but they might feel they have good reason for acting beforehand - is Elayne really the best person to lead Andor into TG? That is a question that must have at least some degree of resolution before the battle. By doing things the way she did, she has made a strong, unified Andor. Had she just taken it from Rand, she would not have the support she currently has. She would probably be either mired in a civil war still, or would have been deposed and replaced by Dyelin (and if Rand tried to remove Dyelin? Priorities, man! That can wait till after TG).

 

Sure, you can point out times that Elaine does something that is deserving of praise, but that doesn't change that she is arrogant and condescending. The way she treats Matt on the way to ebou dar is one example. There is no point after the first book when she is really a likable character as a whole. Sure, she might have helped get egwene out at falme, but her chin is still stuck in the clouds. There isn't one point in the series where she shows an ounce of humility. Even when she apologized to Matt it was just to please avienda and save a little face.

I could say the exact opposite: Sure, you can point out times when Elayne does something that is worthy of criticism, but that doesn't change the fact that she is about as far from arrogant and condescending as it is reasonable for a woman in her position to be, and further still. Her attitude to Mat is unusual, not typical. What other examples do you have? Who is she condescending to? When is she arrogant? Anyone can make baseless assertions. How about providing some examples that don't revolve around Mat and his rather skewed perception of her? A bunch of parodies hardly make for compelling support for your viewpoint.

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