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@Fionwe How is Tam calling someone a bully who reacts under stress unbelievable? People can be a bully when it is outside of their normal character. I'll find plenty of situations where RJ himself had characters acting very unexpectantly and out of character just to demonstrate how ridiculous your claim is.

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@Fionwe How is Tam calling someone a bully who reacts under stress unbelievable? People can be a bully when it is outside of their normal character. I'll find plenty of situations where RJ himself had characters acting very unexpectantly and out of character just to demonstrate how ridiculous your claim is.

Huh? I'm talking about Min linking her current action with her previous actions with Rand. I have no problem with Tam calling the Cadsuane in that scene a bully. She was.

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@Fionwe How is Tam calling someone a bully who reacts under stress unbelievable? People can be a bully when it is outside of their normal character. I'll find plenty of situations where RJ himself had characters acting very unexpectantly and out of character just to demonstrate how ridiculous your claim is.

Huh? I'm talking about Min linking her current action with her previous actions with Rand. I have no problem with Tam calling the Cadsuane in that scene a bully. She was.

What's wrong with Min linking those actions? She's correct. Just because Soriela and others know why Cads treated Rand like that, it doesn't mean that Min knows. I am actually positive that Cads wouldn't share her plans with a woman in love with the DR. So for Min to make that connection is perfectly reasonable.

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@Fionwe How is Tam calling someone a bully who reacts under stress unbelievable? People can be a bully when it is outside of their normal character. I'll find plenty of situations where RJ himself had characters acting very unexpectantly and out of character just to demonstrate how ridiculous your claim is.

On top of my head, Moghedien who takes a shoot at Nynaeve in Ebou Dar in broad daylight. Once Moghedien realize what she has done, she realized it was completely out of character for her, and she panics and flee the scene.

 

So yes, even RJ made characters act unexpectedly in special situations.

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@Fionwe How is Tam calling someone a bully who reacts under stress unbelievable? People can be a bully when it is outside of their normal character. I'll find plenty of situations where RJ himself had characters acting very unexpectantly and out of character just to demonstrate how ridiculous your claim is.

Huh? I'm talking about Min linking her current action with her previous actions with Rand. I have no problem with Tam calling the Cadsuane in that scene a bully. She was.

What's wrong with Min linking those actions? She's correct. Just because Soriela and others know why Cads treated Rand like that, it doesn't mean that Min knows. I am actually positive that Cads wouldn't share her plans with a woman in love with the DR. So for Min to make that connection is perfectly reasonable.

 

But her not making any connection at all in that scene is also perfectly reasonable. The question being asked is about Brandon's choice to present Cadsuane's actions this way in Min's PoV. I'm not blaming Min for having the thought (though it is weird, since Min calls Cadsuane a strict aunt to Rand, and she was raised by three strict aunts, which makes Min's views on Cadsuane anything but negative...), I questioning why Sanderson had her do it at that time, if his intention was to present this as Cadsuane snapping under immense strain (as you're claiming). 

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@Fionwe How is Tam calling someone a bully who reacts under stress unbelievable? People can be a bully when it is outside of their normal character. I'll find plenty of situations where RJ himself had characters acting very unexpectantly and out of character just to demonstrate how ridiculous your claim is.

On top of my head, Moghedien who takes a shoot at Nynaeve in Ebou Dar in broad daylight. Once Moghedien realize what she has done, she realized it was completely out of character for her, and she panics and flee the scene.

 

So yes, even RJ made characters act unexpectedly in special situations.

 

Wait... Moghedien who strikes from the shadows at her enemies struck her enemy from a hidden location, and she thus acted out of character?   :dry:

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@Fionwe How is Tam calling someone a bully who reacts under stress unbelievable? People can be a bully when it is outside of their normal character. I'll find plenty of situations where RJ himself had characters acting very unexpectantly and out of character just to demonstrate how ridiculous your claim is.

On top of my head, Moghedien who takes a shoot at Nynaeve in Ebou Dar in broad daylight. Once Moghedien realize what she has done, she realized it was completely out of character for her, and she panics and flee the scene.

 

So yes, even RJ made characters act unexpectedly in special situations.

Wait... Moghedien who strikes from the shadows at her enemies struck her enemy from a hidden location, and she thus acted out of character? :dry:

LOL, reread this scene Fionwe. Even Mog is horrified by what she did.

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@Fionwe How is Tam calling someone a bully who reacts under stress unbelievable? People can be a bully when it is outside of their normal character. I'll find plenty of situations where RJ himself had characters acting very unexpectantly and out of character just to demonstrate how ridiculous your claim is.

On top of my head, Moghedien who takes a shoot at Nynaeve in Ebou Dar in broad daylight. Once Moghedien realize what she has done, she realized it was completely out of character for her, and she panics and flee the scene.

 

So yes, even RJ made characters act unexpectedly in special situations.

 

Wait... Moghedien who strikes from the shadows at her enemies struck her enemy from a hidden location, and she thus acted out of character?   :dry:

Which she didn't, she attacked in the middle of a city, during the day.

 

Suddenly, what she had done struck her. She had always moved in the dim places, always kept herself hidden. always...

Any woman in the city who could channel would know someone had drawn a great deal of saidar. if not for what, and any eye watching had seen that bar of liquid white fire sear across the afterbiib, Fear gave her wings. Not fear. Terror.

And then it proceeds to describe how she is sprinting away from the scene, screaming at her lackeys to get the hell out of there.

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I fail to see how using human behaviours as a reasoning for actions is logical fallacies. In fact, for me it seems like a rather logical conclusion to the whole situation, that she would strike out as she did. Only difference is you base your logic upon what have happened earlier in the books, while I base my logic upon general human behaviours. Mine is just as valid as yours, regardless of how inconvenient said logic is for your arguments.

 

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/volvofal.html

 

Further saying "anything can happen" is a cop out. It hasn't inconvenienced anyone in the slightest. If you have given up on finding any shred of textual evidence or anything in RJ's notes to support your opinion you have already lost the debate.

 

As for the "What must be endured, can be endured", we know this is a thing she learned from the Wilder, meaning she didn't believe so before she ran into her and was taught a lesson. In other words, there was a time where she didn't believe in this in the same way.

 

This doesn't even make sense. It was a defining moment in her life, one that has shaped how she approaches everything and goes about her duty.

 

 

AWe also know that in hear 300 years, there hasn't been an impossible task(Can't remember the exact quote) and she wouldn't let this one be either. Now her very last attempt failed, meaning for the first time since the Wilder, she has failed.

Now you are just making things up. We know her bitterst failure(amongst others) was failing to root out the BA. She has faced failing many times and more so she has faced the world ending already in WH and didn't blink. Edited by Suttree
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I want it said, for some reason, that my browser (or the boards) are acting up, so I can't remark on everything I'd like to. Some points:

(a) Mark, please keep your remarks about Brandon and his work civil.

(b) RJ played a subtle game with Rand. We weren't supposed to realize a lot of what was happening was his going mad. After KoD's A Plain Wooden Box, the cat is out of the bag; what's to follow was always more spectacular than what preceded it (at least, more grandiose). Not that I think Brandon did a bad job with it; in fact, I rather liked it, and what's more, I think it was mostly done well, with Rand's motivations and reasoning there to be seen (and consistent with what we know of his psyche).

© As for Moghedien, she was horrified at the way she disobeyed Moridin, not that she struck against Nynaeve. That, in fact, was so much embedded in her character that she couldn't avoid doing that, even upon threat of losing her soul. Not that she thought about it, it was a visceral reaction.

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@Fionwe I don't understand your position at all. You're grasping at straws. If RJ wrote this we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

Well of course not, because he wouldn't have written it this way! 

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Sorry, all my indentations are getting lost. And I can't edit to avoid double-posting. Anyhow, I'll keep my remarks to a minimum. Just wanted to add that as long as we're validating our perspective by virtue of having served as enlisted men (which, I might add, is absurd. Only generals face the kind of pressure Cadsuane has, and I presume none of us here reached that rank), then count me in. In fact, serving as an officer, I've had some jobs quite spectacularly botched. I daresay I know something of what that feels like. I didn't see action, though, if you think that matters.

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Further saying "anything can happen" is a cop out. It hasn't inconvenienced anyone in the slightest. If you have given up on finding any shred of textual evidence or anything in RJ's notes to support your opinion you have already lost the debate.
I disagree, these are still human beings, not aliens or robots. So expecting them to react human, seems like the logical way to go about it.

There is no textual evidence of Cadsuane thinking or doing this, as we simply don't enough about her. What we do have however, is Moghediens actions in A Crown of Swords, which is another character who is dead set in a specific way of approaching things, and yet she acts out of character when she attacks Nynaeve.

 

This doesn't even make sense. It was a defining moment in her life, one that has shaped how she approaches everything and goes about her duty.
Did I say anything else? I agree it's a defining moment of her life, that have help shaped how she thinks and handle things. But it also shows that there was a time she didn't think that way. There was a time she approached things differently. So I ask again, how is it so hard for some of you, to accept that Cadsuane is just a human being, with regular human emotions and reactions?

 

Now you are just making things up. We know her bitterst failure(amongst others) was failing to root out the BA. She has faced failing many times and more so she has faced the world ending already in WH and didn't blink.
As I pointed out, I didn't have the book at hand to check up on it, it was a matter of remembering wrong, not making things up. Or should I perhaps start to claim Fionwe made things up earlier as well, when he misremembered Moghediens scene?

 

 

@Yonyi0

Of course none of us have reached that amount of pressure that Cadsuane can handle. And that is not my argument either, my argument is that no human being is beyond these reactions. Difference is simply how much you can handle. This event was what topped it for Cadsuane.

Edited by Manscher
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After commenting here and on Lucker's other thread, I've come to the conclusion that what I want from Dragonmount is a place to talk about the WoT.  As such, I am putting this and anything close to this topic behind me; many of the people I disagree with here are people I otherwise really respect, so thats where I'd like to leave it.

 

MoL is out in less than a month, and I'd really like to enjoy it with the people here; I just will not be able read anything in regards to the writing of said book, just the book itself.

 

A fine line... let's hope everyone can do this, so that as old friends come back to rave or rant about our beloved series, Dragonmount will grow and grow and have the traffic to be what we all want it to be.  Hopefully, both sides of this issues can agree on at least this!

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Fionwe didn't forget. As Yoniy0 pointed out that was very much inline with her character. As was the methodical use of the OP when dealing with Rand is inline with Cads.

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The quote flatout states she acted out of character, that she didn't strike from a dim places as per usual, but that she did openly where everybody could see and sense it.

 

She wasn't afraid of having gone against Moridins orders, she was afraid he found out, because she did it in such a public way.

Edited by Manscher
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Ok this is getting ridiculous with all the wrong info...her thoughts before are of Moridin just as her thoughts after. Yoniy0 is absolutely correct.

 

She wet her lips, shivering. Moridin's instructions had been explicit, the price of disobedience made excruciatingly clear. But a slight delay would not hurt. Not if he never learned of it, anyway.
She raised her hands, but as balefire launched itself, something flashed around her and she jerked. Moridin had come; he was there, and he would... She stared at the pigeons fluttering away. Pigeons! She nearly spewed the contents of her stomach across the roof. A glance at the river made her snarl.
Caught your edit btw. Edited by Suttree
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Yep, I edited because I read it further, and while she is afraid because Moridin might find out. The fact is she still think to herself that she acted out of character. By attacking in broad daylight where everybody can sense and see. I shall quote once again.

 

Suddenly, what she had done struck her. She had always moved in the dim places, always kept herself hidden. always...

Any woman in the city who could channel would know someone had drawn a great deal of saidar. if not for what, and any eye watching had seen that bar of liquid white fire sear across the afterbiib, Fear gave her wings. Not fear. Terror.

 

So yes, she is afraid, because Moridin might find out because of this. It still doesn't change the fact that she acted outside of her normal behaviour, because of her hatred to Nynaeve.

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<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Manscher" data-cid="2703072" data-time="1355434029"><p>

Yep, I edited because I read it further, and while she is afraid because Moridin might find out. The fact is she still think to herself that she acted out of character. By attacking in broad daylight where everybody can sense and see. I shall quote once again.<br />

<br />

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'><p><br />

Suddenly, what she had done struck her. She had always moved in the dim places, always kept herself hidden. always...<br />

Any woman in the city who could channel would know someone had drawn a great deal of saidar. if not for what, and any eye watching had seen that bar of liquid white fire sear across the afterbiib, Fear gave her wings. Not fear. Terror.</p></blockquote>

So yes, she is afraid, because Moridin might find out because of this. It still doesn't change the fact that she acted outside of her normal behaviour, because of her hatred to Nynaeve.</p></blockquote>

 

I just went and found that text. Her attack was absolutely against her character. It is just one point and it is perfect. Just because we haven't seen a character act in a specific way doesn't mean it cannot happen. Before this chapter no one could say that Mogs would have capable of this sort of feat. Now it would be considered canon.

 

Even more, this proves that you cannot apply only that which is found in a book as evidence. Her human emotions were very evident here and she acted on them. To preclude the fact that someone can act in an unexpected way is to ignore every human aspect in the creative aspect.

 

Also, who can say that RJs notes didn't say "Cadsuane lashes at Tam with the one power after learning of her failure." Maybe 5 people. Nonetheless, your stance that if it isn't evidenced in the books it cant happen is closed minded and unrealistic.

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Also, who can say that RJs notes didn't say "Cadsuane lashes at Tam with the one power after learning of her failure." Maybe 5 people. Nonetheless, your stance that if it isn't evidenced in the books it cant happen is closed minded and unrealistic.
Sigh. I really wish people would stop creating straw men. I've never once said anything like that. Again you can say well "anything can happen" in relation to just about whatever you like in the books. If it is totally out of character and goes against all of RJ's notes on Cads and textual evidence it just isn't particularly compelling. I see you all have completely given up on trying to show support for your opinion besides holding on to this last thin blade of grass. Just let go man, we know what happened in Asmodeans story.

 

As for RJ's quotes I wouldn't be surprised if that is what it said as that is almost exactly how Brandon wrote it. About the same length and as blunty too. ;) Neverthless it would not happened to stop from hearing the truth and that is part of how she was dumbed down and made into a caricature of herself.

Edited by Suttree
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I think proof was provided that RJ himself wrote actions for individuals that were out of character. You completely ignored it. There are more examples out there too. Obviously providing evidence that people act out of character isn't enough proof to suggest it can happen again. If that cannot convince you then there is no way to make you see sense because all you see is red in this instance.

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Also, who can say that RJs notes didn't say "Cadsuane lashes at Tam with the one power after learning of her failure." Maybe 5 people. Nonetheless, your stance that if it isn't evidenced in the books it cant happen is closed minded and unrealistic.

Sigh. I really wish people would stop creating straw men. I've never once said anything like that. Again you can say well "anything can happen" in relation to just about whatever you like in the books. If it is totally out of character and goes against all of RJ's notes on Cads and textual evidence it just isn't particularly compelling. I see you all have completely given up on trying to show support for your opinion besides holding on to this last thin blade of grass. Just let go man, we know what happened in Asmodeans story.

 

As for RJ's quotes I wouldn't be surprised if that is what it said as that is almost exactly how Brandon wrote it. About the same length and as blunty too. ;) Neverthless it would not happened to stop from hearing the truth and that is part of how she was dumbed down and made into a caricature of herself.

No offense, but you are the one holding onto the last straws. We've given plenty of arguments as to why Cadsuanes reaction in that specific scene is reasonable and probable. Yet you keep denying it because it does not fit with the textual description of how Cadsuane is. We even brought up another incident of a character who acts unexpectantly because of human factors, which you then proceed to ignore the textual evidence of such things happening.

 

Is the scene well written and was the full potential of the confrontation utilized? Most likely not, but it doesn't change that the her reaction was perfectly reasonable. Cadsuane isn't super human.

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I am? You do realize there is a group of people arguing our side correct? Further you have given zero evidence aside "well she is human and anything is possible".

 

As Yoniy0, Fionwe etc have said the one other example given doesn't fit. Meanwhile we have provided the vast majority of evidence in the debate. Honestly when you say "plenty of arguments" I'm wondering if we are talking about the same conversation? Regardless it's obvious you haven't moved the needle at all. Unless you can show anything relating to her character I'm ready to more on. Cheers.

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Why doesn't the other example fit? She decides to fire Balefire, in broad daylight, in the middle of Ebou Dar at Nynaeve. She then afterwards realize what she has done, and that it is completely out of character for her to do such a rash thing.

 

And "well she is human and anything is possible" is hardly our argument. We've pointed out that she is under extreme pressure, and that while she is a remarkable woman, she's not without a breaking point. So that when her very last attempt at "saving" the Rand and the world seems to have gone wrong. She first calmly ask Tam if he stuck to the script, to which he replies that yes, he did, and it didn't work. So he went off script and mentioned her name, which made Rand explode. So not only did Tam not use the script that Cadsuane had told him to do, he also went and spoke her name, another thing he wasn't supposed to do.

 

Is it really then so hard to believe that even Cadsuane, might snap and act out of character? Especially when considering the tone in which Tam spoke with her.

Edited by Manscher
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