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Aos Sídhe / Aes Sedai and Avi's vision


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Guys, if you just let me go back to the topic... I haven't read thoroughly all the previous posts so I just hope not to repeat anything - I think I haven't seen it mentioned yet. To the point: there are 2 separate but similar notions in regard to Ireland. Aes sídhe, which you've been talking about, is the folk of legends. It translates to "people of the mounds" (mouds = dwelling places o the Tuatha Dé Danann). Then there is also aes dana, which means "people of the gift" and this term refers to historical Irish society - aes dana formed its elite. Before the coming of Christianity the druids were probably its most prominent members, whose heirs in the Middle Ages became filid - the poets (Irish poets were more like prophets and sages than bards). Among aes dana there were also professionals - such as craftsmen (above all, revered blacksmiths) and physicians - scholars, brehons (lawyers), historians, harpists and, maybe, clerics.

 

My conclusion is - and I was wandering whether to post it on DM myself before - that Aes sídhe = Finns (Sindhol) whereas aes dana = Aes Sedai. I think it fits well - the former being the legendary creatures who posses magical powers, dwell in hidden places and are not always nice to people, though they could grant fantastic gifts to the hero who is able to enter their realm (they were also famous for their beguiling music > remember the Finns' reaction to the flute's sound?); the latter (speaking of the druids and poets only) - the social elite who also posses super powers. What is more, the druids, who were obviously more magical and powerful than their heirs, passed with the previous era, just like Aes Sedai from the AoL. Medieval poets enjoyed the freedom of movement in politically divided Ireland - as the men of tradition, learning and knowledge they formed the strongest uniting factor, actually. Each of many petty kings was expected to have ollam - the highest poet, equal in rank to the bishop - near him. Well, sounds quite like Aes Sedai's role in the "contemporary" society of Randland... or like their presumed role at least. Irish poets were highly revered, not feared of.

Edited by gwenifer
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On a somewhat related note: IIRC the word 'banshee' comes from Bean Sidhe, so it makes sense Sidhe is pronounced Shee. To me, at least, speaking neither gaelic nor english natively :) Most of what I know of Aes Sidhe/Bean Sidhe etcetera comes from the game Dominions 3. This also leads me to simply use one term when meaning either Aes Sidhe OR Tuatha De Danann.

 

 

 

Of course the parallels I do know seem fitting to the story. Aes Sedai eventually are no longer in day to day life (true if this world is a future of theirs), Aes Sedai can bring up magic (true), they defeated Fomorians who are not quite humanoid and/or deformed (Trollocs?), and once they were hidden 'Wardens' still guarded their holy sites.

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1.)My conclusion is - and I was wandering whether to post it on DM myself before - that Aes sídhe = Finns (Sindhol) whereas aes dana = Aes Sedai. I think it fits well - the former being the legendary creatures who posses magical powers, dwell in hidden places and are not always nice to people; the latter (speaking of the druids and poets only) - the social elite who also posses super powers. What is more, the druids, who were obviously more magical and powerful than their heirs, passed with the previous era, just like Aes Sedai from the AoL. Medieval poets enjoyed the freedom of movement in politically divided Ireland - as the men of tradition, learning and knowledge they formed the strongest uniting factor, actually. Each of many petty kings was expected to have ollam - the highest poet, equal in rank to the bishop - near him. Well, sounds quite like Aes Sedai's role in the "contemporary" society of Randland... or like their presumed role at least. Irish poets were highly revered, not feared of.

1.) I thnk thats an interesting comparison, but it is moer fitting that the Aes Sedai equate to Aes not ony becuase of the name but also that they aer socially viewd as something apart from human, even if the aes sedai are human, and their main power is cuase of their superb magick, not from their religious and cultural significance. And I would like to add ther are still druids around, and not those...neo pagans (not to go into what i think about those...). Christins didnt manage to stomp on everythng. So with the name reinforcing, it seems obvious to me taht Aes Sedai were inspird by a magickal race, not an intellectual class of a country. After all, the Aes have their own artisans and druids as well. It seems he jst divided the "faery" roles onto the Finn insted of giving it to Aes Sedai too.

 

Of course the parallels I do know seem fitting to the story. Aes Sedai eventually are no longer in day to day life (true if this world is a future of theirs), Aes Sedai can bring up magic (true), 1.)they defeated Fomorians who are not quite humanoid and/or deformed (Trollocs?), and once they were hidden 'Wardens' still guarded their holy sites.

1.) Lol Fomoire are not comparble to trollocs; depending on what tale and/or waht version of a cycle you read, Fomoire aer either used to describ certain foreigners, or they aer used to describe an opposng race of gods - in some stories they arent much different from the Aes in apperance, in others they are moer monstrous, like having one leg and one arm and one eye. Lets not look moer futher than LOTR's orcs whch is where he probably got th idea of trollocs from, please.

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1.) I thnk thats an interesting comparison, but it is moer fitting that the Aes Sedai equate to Aes not ony becuase of the name but also that they aer socially viewd as something apart from human, even if the aes sedai are human, and their main power is cuase of their superb magick, not from their religious and cultural significance. And I would like to add ther are still druids around, and not those...neo pagans (not to go into what i think about those...). Christins didnt manage to stomp on everythng. So with the name reinforcing, it seems obvious to me taht Aes Sedai were inspird by a magickal race, not an intellectual class of a country. After all, the Aes have their own artisans and druids as well. It seems he jst divided the "faery" roles onto the Finn insted of giving it to Aes Sedai too.

Ok, let's just disagree on that but may I say that... I love your hair? :smile: And I love Ireland, although it's still kinda platonic love 'cause I've never managed to go there yet. But one day I will.

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And I would like to add ther are still druids around, and not those...neo pagans (not to go into what i think about those...). Christins didnt manage to stomp on everythng. So with the name reinforcing, it seems obvious to me taht Aes Sedai were inspird by a magickal race, not an intellectual class of a country. After all, the Aes have their own artisans and druids as well. It seems he jst divided the "faery" roles onto the Finn insted of giving it to Aes Sedai too.

 

Yes there are still Druids around and yes I agree most of what is practiced by neo Pagans have nothing to do with it. Now to the topic, I do not really see how Aes Sedai can be based on either Druids or the Aes, most of the social structure of the Aes Sedai is very clearly based on Catholic nun orders, especially in the middle ages and the Renaissance.

 

1.) Lol Fomoire are not comparble to trollocs; depending on what tale and/or waht version of a cycle you read, Fomoire aer either used to describ certain foreigners, or they aer used to describe an opposng race of gods - in some stories they arent much different from the Aes in apperance, in others they are moer monstrous, like having one leg and one arm and one eye. Lets not look moer futher than LOTR's orcs whch is where he probably got th idea of trollocs from, please.

 

Yeah I also see far more of the typical fantasy orc in trollocs, they have some similarity to some descriptions of Norwegian trolls but for the most part they would fit right into the same mold a any Tolkienish orc like creatures.

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Oh, I am not arguing with that. I'm just arguing that IF you were to model Aes Sedai on the Tuatha De Danann, they could fill the role of Fomorians in the 'monstrous' interpretation, garbled by a few milennia.

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Maybe becuse your not in a religion that specifically tells you to curse or get rid of anyone who dishonours your gods so its not as serious to you and evn if you were, your probably of the non-zealous type and wouldnt do it anyways? Thats just an aside.

 

I am for religious freedom, I am however not for religious violence. My hubby is a Christian and I am a Pagan, his religion specifically tell him to kill me, but we manage to live together quite nicely. I think that if your religion tells you to kill or curse anyone who dishonors your Gods then you should take a good, hard look at your religion. Also one do not need to go looking for dishonor, I understand that Christians for example get rather pissed when someone make art of a crucifix drenched in urine, I understand that Muslims get upset when their Prophet is depicted as a pig, there are clearly things that are done to be offensive and I have no problem with being outraged about that and speaking up against it. However an author using a word is sort of similar to the name of your Gods for a group of sorceresses in a piece of fantasy fiction that is digging around for offense where none is meant. I mean that would be like if I had gone ballistic that Battlestar Galactica have a character with the call sign Athena who tuns out to be a robot, and another one names Apollo, I mean this is clearly not meant as offense.

 

My religion is the most important thing in my life and I put the Gods extremely high but I do not go look for offense. Now being non zealous do not mean one is not as offended when someone offends your religions and your Gods. However I do not think that the Goddess and the God need me to do violence for Them, or be insulted for Them, I think They are more than capable to deal with any slight They may feel Themselves. Also I do not think the Gods think of a name similar to theirs being used in a fantasy book is offense, there is such a thing as being over zealous.

 

I don't want to continue to take this thread off topic, but, as a Christian I have to respond to this. If your husband's religion tells him to kill anyone IT IS NOT CHRISTIANITY!!!!

 

Please read the Gospels and the book of Acts for yourself to see the teachings of Jesus and the implementation of those teachings by the disciples in the early church to see the truth.

 

Again, I am not trying to take this thread off topic, if you have any further questions PM me, please, but I couldn't live with myself if I let a comment like that about Christianity stand without saying something.

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I can see the 'Finns being modeled after the Aes SÍdhe, and the Aes Sedai after the Tuatha Dé Danann. That makes perfect sense to me, particularly if you're thinking of the Aes Sedai as being the draÍoght (druids). While I agree that the Trollocs owe more to fantasy "orcs" than to the Fomori, I can see how there could be a correlation there. The fomori are described most frequently as giants (with the aforementioned one leg, one arm, and one eye).

 

(pronunciation: I'm not a native speaker of Gaeilge, but my Oide pronounced them "Ace-shee", "too-ha jay dannan" and "dree-ocht".)

 

Though to be fair, we refer to them mostly as Daoine Sidhe: the good people.

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