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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
joeron bigelow

why does the dark one want to win?

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Something that keeps popping up elsewhere is the integration some characters have with their past lives. Rand being one of the obvious ones, and the Heroes of the Horn (while in storage), and Mat. It could be possible that Ishy isn't lying about remembering his past lives, it could be a champion thing, and not just TP induced madness. In my opinion, that gives a lot of credence to his ramblings, justifies his nihilism, and convinces me that he has the right of it.

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Something that keeps popping up elsewhere is the integration some characters have with their past lives. Rand being one of the obvious ones, and the Heroes of the Horn (while in storage), and Mat.

 

Why would you include Mat in that? Those memories are not from his lives, unless you are talking about those snippets of old tongue speak pre visiting the Finns. Rand is the only character who actually remembers aside from a HoH. Ishy is just guessing, but he did guess right about him and Rand battling time after time.

Edited by Suttree

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The Creator and the Dark One are siblings, perhaps even adolescents, on a level of existence beyond human comprehension. They are having a sibling rivalry. The Creator makes things and the Dark One tries to ruin them out of jealousy. The Creator lives to create, and sort of cares about his creations to the point that he doesn't want them destroyed, either for sentimental reasons or personal satisfaction of making something the Dark One cannot destroy. The Creator and Dark One each grew better at their hobbies until the Creator finally made something with a sophisticated enough mechanism (including ta'veren, Ta'maral'ailen, the Champion of the Light, etc.) that self-corrects any outer interference, specifically pre-programmed to counter the Dark One's influence. The Dark One is annoyed that it's taken as long as it has to destroy his rival's creation this time, thus the bit of irritation Demandred detects in their conversation in the Prologue of LoC. The DO has told Ishamael/Moridin of how every past creation has met with destruction, and Moridin has bought into the inevitability of creation's end. The Wheel of Time series is simply the story of a snippet of that struggle from certain humans' perspectives, some instrumental to the pattern of the age and others merely bystanders witnessing relevant portions of the Web of Destiny this creation's pattern has woven.

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Btw think the other day you asked where the interviews were coming from. Here you go...

Thanks, but I know this site. I meant, it would be nice to have a link to each individual interview the quote is coming from...

 

There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.

This is basically the same thing worded differently. If the Dark One doesn't break free by the end of Age Three, he's going to stay imprisoned all the way until the end of Age Two, by which time anything the Dragon Reborn may or may not have done will long since have become irrelevant, and faded far beyond the state of myth.

And how does the Dark One manage NOT to get freed with the Dragon on his side?

 

But what REALLY drives me nuts is that instance from TGH where Rand fast-forwards his alternate lives, and at the end of each a voice whispers in his ear "I win again Lews Therin". Whose voice is that? Is it the Dark One? Why isn't he ALL CAPPED? How does he whisper into Rand's mind thousands of kilometers away from Shayol Ghul? Why would he say he "wins again", when was the last time the Dark One had won? Even RJ's quotes admit the result was a draw, so what does a victory entail, and why isn't all Creation vaporized if the DO had won in the past?

 

The BS is strong with this one.

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Btw think the other day you asked where the interviews were coming from. Here you go...

Thanks, but I know this site. I meant, it would be nice to have a link to each individual interview the quote is coming from...

 

There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.

This is basically the same thing worded differently. If the Dark One doesn't break free by the end of Age Three, he's going to stay imprisoned all the way until the end of Age Two, by which time anything the Dragon Reborn may or may not have done will long since have become irrelevant, and faded far beyond the state of myth.

And how does the Dark One manage NOT to get freed with the Dragon on his side?

 

 

We don't actally know that Rand is going to lock the Dark One away all the way until we get back to the age of legends.

 

Lews Therrin got only a partial victory at the end of the last age.

 

I don't know how the Age of Legends might have turned out if Lews Therrin had turned bad.Hey, if Lewis Therrin had turned bad, Demandred probably would have stayed good.

 

I don't know. Does everything happen exactally the say way ever time we get to the third age, or are there just some similarities to the pattern?

 

It does seem like there are some key momenys of decision that shape how the pattern is going to evolve. When Perrin promised the Senchean that he wasn't going to claim the crown of Menetheren, there was suddenly a cold breeze, a hint that something huge had just happened. Maybe the whole next age had been different if he hadn't done that.

 

Edit: Actually, I had a disturbing thought. If the Dark One damage the pattern itself and unravles it, then perhaps every time there is an age where the Dark One can touch the pattern, the pattern is damaged worse. Perhaps the damage to the pattern is bad enough that the last Age of Legends and Third Age were better then this one, just because the pattern itself gets more damaged and corrupted every time. That would explain why Morridin is so convinced that the DO is going to win eventually.

Edited by Yosarian

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Why does the Creator want to create? Because it's in his nature. The Dark One is the opposite of the Creator, and therefore wants to Destory. It's to create a balance in the Wheel of Time. The Creator is 'good', the Dark One 'evil' and the Pattern 'neutral'. I don't believe there is an actual motivation behind the Dark One's actions, it's simply what he does because to do otherwise would be to go against nature.

 

The Forsaken/Chosen are simply misguided, purposefully, to the intentions the Dark One has to a post-Tarmon Gai'don world: they believe they will be spared from the destruction as a reward for their loyalty and help. Ishamael/Moridin isn't quite as naive as his co-workers, as he is more nihilistically minded because he's realised that to carry on fighting the Dark One and imprisoning him every Age or two is cyclical and repetitive, whereas aiding the Dark One will lead to a definite conclusion.

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I alwyas got the idea Ishy was a kind of misunderstood genius. He probably didn't really like his life, just was good at it. His philosophy sounds like it throoughly undermined any idea he might have had about a 'greater purpose' to life. If all he can look forward to is an endless repeat of his life, and he doesn't like his life, why do it again?

 

As to why he didn't like his life, who knows? Maybe he wanted Lanfear and was pissed she still pined after LTT. Maybe he got bullied in school. Maybe his parents died when he was 5 years old and he spent his childhood shuffling from orphanage to adoption to orphange.

 

What, indeed, makes people in our western world unhappy? Fr some its the ills the AoL has mostly extinguished (crime, disease) but for many others the issues are more social (and, as far as I can tell, the AoL was just a very efficient mix of police and welfare state. No reason to suspect they managed to destroy all the minor annoyances of life).

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I do have to say, if the dark one REALLY wanted to win, perhaps he shouldn't recruit a bunch of idiots who can't walk down the street without backstabbing each other and who spend 80% of their time doing nothing but torturing other darkfriends.

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I do have to say, if the dark one REALLY wanted to win, perhaps he shouldn't recruit a bunch of idiots who can't walk down the street without backstabbing each other and who spend 80% of their time doing nothing but torturing other darkfriends.

I always thought most of the Forsaken's successes or defeats were really immaterial to the DO's final plan. It's about creating pointless conflict. Asmodeon with the Shaido, Graendal with the Domani, Semirhage with the Seachan, Ravihn with the Andorans, Sammael with the Illians--they started time and effort consuming wars, forced the Dragon's forces elsewhere. Notice how they rarely used many shadowspawn, instead pitting the forces of the Light against each other. When a forsaken is given a direct task, such as Graendal with killing Perrin or Messana with breaking the Tower, the flaws of the Forsaken are not important as none would interfere with such a job--look at what happens to Sammael/Lanfear when they try to kill Rand.

 

Their goal is not to win the war of the Shadow, it's to cause as much conflict as possible to stop the forces of the Light from uniting. The fact that the Forsaken will actually fight each other only makes them better at their jobs.

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I do have to say, if the dark one REALLY wanted to win, perhaps he shouldn't recruit a bunch of idiots who can't walk down the street without backstabbing each other and who spend 80% of their time doing nothing but torturing other darkfriends.

 

I get your point but in case you didn't notice the DO was a sliver away from a total win during VoG. It is the forsaken's job to create chaos and the shadow is very much winning at this point.

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Yeah, that's probably true.

 

It just seems to me that the DO could probably make his darkfriends be less backstabby with less infighting and make them more cohesive if he wanted to, and if he did they would be much more effective at taking over the world, but he doesn't seem to care for the most part. Perhaps he's trying to create a world where only the strong survive?

Edited by Yosarian

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Yeah, that's probably true.

 

It just seems to me that the DO could probably make his darkfriends be less backstabby with less infighting and make them more cohesive if he wanted to, and if he did they would be much more effective at taking over the world, but he doesn't seem to care for the most part. Perhaps he's trying to create a world where only the strong survive?

 

The problem with that, is that the Dark One hasn't been able to touch the world, and he'll take anyonje. If you haven't noticed, in the last few books, the Dark One *has* been doing just that, now that he's ACTUALLY able to do stuff (As SH), rather than use proxies.

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Eh. He (or possibly ishy, we don't exactally know) was able to get all the black ajah aes sedi to take an oath on the oath rod to not betray the black ajah until the hour of their death. How hard would it have been to add in a "Oh, and don't go around murdering the people that are on our side out of pure ambition" clause to that if that was what they wanted?

 

You are right that the DO is trying to get the Forsaken in line now and discourage them from killing each other and such, but I think that's just because the Last Battle is approaching. They have all gotten direct instructions from the DO in the past, and he could have ordered them to not plot against each other if he had cared to do so.

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Ishamael/Moridin's own reasons for wanting to undo the world basically consist of: it can't be saved' date=' and it's not exactly a happy place, so the smartest thing to do would be to destroy it and get it over with. What this jolly ray of sunshine was doing walking around the most Utopian age the world can remember, I can't imagine. Seriously, why in the hell was he so unhappy? Why is THAT his logical conclusion? I mean, everything else he says makes sense... DO's immortal, sure. Can't beat him, sure. Let's go ahead and destroy the world? But we [i']like [/i]the world. And since it doesn't matter either way, there's no harm in preserving it again. Clearly, this man was already crazy before he ever met the Dark One.

 

Well, remember, Moridin is Rand's dramatic foil. "Screw it, there's too much pain in the world, it can't be saved anyway, let's just destroy it now and save everyone a lot of suffering". Rand very nearly came to the same conclusion.

 

Yeah, but Rand is at least living in terrible times. Ishamael, relatively early in the War of Power, decided "Oh screw this, let's just blow it up." He had lived most of his life in the AoL, a bright and happy place and time, as far as we can tell. Why give up so quickly? Unless he knows something nobody else does, it sounds like the decision of a madman.

 

 

Now that makes me think - every archenemy has a weakness. Do you foresee Rand asking Moridin at the brink of his death.."Elan Morin - don't you remember what it was like to love someone? That's what i fight for - love." and all the blah blah blah.

 

Then Moridin having his own epiphany and his own VoG moment...then turns on the DO like Vader on Palpatine.

 

I dunno about that, but sometimes I wonder if Moridin has been playing both sides of the board for real. Sometimes he seems to think he needs Rand, but he thought it was perfectly acceptable to kill him in order to stop him from using the Choedan Khal- because it could destroy the universe? But that's what he wants.

 

He does have some desire to kill Rand himself, which pretty much all the Forsaken seem to have, but it's not as malicious in his case, and he does a lot to keep Rand alive that just doesn't seem to be rewarding the Shadow.

 

Not that that would necessarily make him a good guy- he could just be doing it to keep things interesting, or because it guarantees that he, personally, cannot lose.

 

But doesn't he know something extra? I thought his decision to turn to the DO and his inevitable victory was compounded by his knowledge of living the same set of lives, through a number of fixed ages, no chance of progress beyond the tides of the ages, and of having next to no free will in the weaving of the wheel. Is he really that crazy?

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Something that keeps popping up elsewhere is the integration some characters have with their past lives. Rand being one of the obvious ones, and the Heroes of the Horn (while in storage), and Mat.

 

Why would you include Mat in that? Those memories are not from his lives, unless you are talking about those snippets of old tongue speak pre visiting the Finns. Rand is the only character who actually remembers aside from a HoH. Ishy is just guessing, but he did guess right about him and Rand battling time after time.

 

Mat actually started having memories of marathorn before he visited the Finns. It wasn't just bits of the old tongue, it was actual memories. I think those were certanly from his past life.

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Something that keeps popping up elsewhere is the integration some characters have with their past lives. Rand being one of the obvious ones, and the Heroes of the Horn (while in storage), and Mat.

 

Why would you include Mat in that? Those memories are not from his lives, unless you are talking about those snippets of old tongue speak pre visiting the Finns. Rand is the only character who actually remembers aside from a HoH. Ishy is just guessing, but he did guess right about him and Rand battling time after time.

 

Mat actually started having memories of marathorn before he visited the Finns. It wasn't just bits of the old tongue, it was actual memories. I think those were certanly from his past life.

He has the memory (more like an unconscous flash back, since he does not actually remember) of one person while being healed in TV. This is why some people theorise that he is Aemon reborn.

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Something that keeps popping up elsewhere is the integration some characters have with their past lives. Rand being one of the obvious ones, and the Heroes of the Horn (while in storage), and Mat.

 

Why would you include Mat in that? Those memories are not from his lives, unless you are talking about those snippets of old tongue speak pre visiting the Finns. Rand is the only character who actually remembers aside from a HoH. Ishy is just guessing, but he did guess right about him and Rand battling time after time.

 

Mat actually started having memories of marathorn before he visited the Finns. It wasn't just bits of the old tongue, it was actual memories. I think those were certanly from his past life.

 

No it wasn't. The closest you could come to a memory was him ordering forward the Heart Guard. RJ was very clear on this point.

Edited by Suttree

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No it wasn't. The closest you could come to a memory was him ordering forward the Heart Guard. RJ was very clear on this point.

 

Yes, the memory of the heart guard, and the battle of Tarendrelle River.

 

Mat actually did mention this again in a later book; there was a quote where he said that he had old memories of war from the Finn, "and in one case before he met them", so he clearly didn't forget that completly.

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No it wasn't. The closest you could come to a memory was him ordering forward the Heart Guard. RJ was very clear on this point.

 

Yes, the memory of the heart guard, and the battle of Tarendrelle River.

 

Those memories where he was on opposite sides of the battle? Those came from the finns. Again I am 100% certain that the only memories from before where those few lines of old tongue. It has been hashed over many times and there are some good articles at 13th Depository I you want to read up on it. This has long been established, if you want to contest it please provide quotes.

Edited by Suttree

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Here, I found it. The Dragon Reborn, page 215-216, Mat has a very detailed memory about leading the Heart Guard against the Trollocs, before he got any extra memories from anywhere. This was also the first time he used the old tounge and actually knew what it meant. And, like the memories he got later, it was the memory of a battle.

 

And, yes, I know that Jordan later said that Mat got all of his memories from the Foxes, but he clearly misspoke, since this was before the incident with the Foxes happens.

Edited by Yosarian

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Here, I found it. The Dragon Reborn, page 215-216, Mat has a very detailed memory about leading the Heart Guard against the Trollocs, before he got any extra memories from anywhere. This was also the first time he used the old tounge and actually knew what it meant. And, like the memories he got later, it was the memory of a battle.

 

Nah, I mentioned this passage in the very first response to you. It was while he was being healed and it says nothing about it being a memory...

 

TGH

"They are killing him," Egwene whispered. "The Amyrlin is killing him! We have to do something."

Just as softly, Nynaeve said, "If we stop them – if we could stop them – he'll die. I do not think I could handle half that much of the Power." She paused as if she had just heard her own words – that she could channel half of what ten full Aes Sedai did with a sa'angreal – and her voice grew even fainter. "Light help me, I want to."

She fell silent abruptly. Did she mean that she wanted to help Mat, or that she wanted to channel that flow of Power? Egwene could feel that urge in herself, like a song that compelled her to dance.

"We must trust them," Nynaeve said in an intense whisper, finally. "He has no other chance."

Suddenly Mat shouted, loud and strong. "Muad'drin tia dar allende caba'drin rhadiem!" Arched and struggling, eyes squeezed shut, he bellowed the words clearly. "Los Valdar Cuebiyari! Los! Carai an Caldazar! Al Caldazar!"

 

Not sure what about that you would call a detailed memory? It's exactly as I said above, and while people question whether those old tongue phrases mean he was Aemon reborn(old blood singing) RJ was quite clear on the fact that the full memories came later from the Finns...

Q: Are all of Mat's memories from his past lives?

RJ: No, Mat's "old" memories are not from his past lives at all. The "sickness" he got from the Shadar Logoth dagger resulted in holes in his memory. He found whole stretches of his life that seemed to be missing. When he passed through the "doorframe" ter'angreal in Rhuidean, one of the things he said - not knowing that the rules here were different than in the other ter'angreal he had used - was that he wanted the holes in his memory filled up, meaning that he wanted to recover his own memories. In this place, however, it was not a matter of asking questions and receiving answers, but of striking bargains for what you want. What he received for that particular demand was memories gathered by the people on that side of the ter'angreal, memories from many men, all long dead, from many cultures. And since not everyone passing by has the nerve to journey through a ter'angreal to some other world, the memories he receieved were those of adventurers and soldiers and men of daring.

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Not sure what about that you would call a detailed memory?

 

This. From The Dragon Reborn, pages 214-216:

 

"Muad' drin tia dar allende caba'drin rhandiem" he murmered. The words were only sounds, yet they sparked...something.

 

The packed lines of spearmen streched a mile or more to either side below him, dotted with the pennants and banners of towns and cities and minor Houses. The river secured his flank on the left, the bogs and mires on the right. From the hillside he watched the spearmen struggle against the mass of Trollocs trying to break through, ten times the human's number. Spears pierced black Trolloc mail, and spiked axes carved bloody gaps in the human ranks. Screams and bellows harried the air. The sun burned hot overhead in a cloudless sky, and shimmers of heat rose above the battle line. Arrows still rained down from the enemy, slaying Trolloc and human alike. He had called his archers back, but the Dreadlords did not care so long as they broke his line. On the ridge behind him, the Heart Guard awaited his command, horses stamping impatiently. Armor on men and horses alike shone silver in the sunlight; neither men nor animals could stand the heat much longer.

 

They must win here or die. He was known as a gambler; it was time to toss the dice. In a voice that carried over the tumult below, he gave the order as he swung up into his saddle. "Footmen prepare to pass cavalry foward!" His bannermen rode close beside him, the Red Eagle banner flapping over his head, as the command was repeated up and down the line.

 

Below, the spearmen suddenly moved, sidestepping with good discipline, narrowing their formations, opening wide gaps between. Gaps into which the Trollocs poured, roaring bestial cries, like a black, oozing tide of death.

 

He drew his sword, raised it high. "Foward the Heart Guard!" He dug his heels in, and the mount leaped down the slope. Behind him, hooves thundered in the charge. "Foward!!" He was the first to strike into the Trollocs, his sword rising and falling, his bannerman close behind. "For the honor of the Red Eagle!" The Heart Guard pounded into the gaps between the spearmen, smashing the tide, hurling it back. "The Red Eagle!" Half-human faces snarled at him, oddly curves swords sougt him, but he cut his way even deeper. Win or die. "Manetheren!".

 

Mat's hand trembled as he raised it to his forehead. "Los Valdas Cuebiyari" he muttered. He was almost sure he knew what it meant-"Foward the Heart Guard", or maybe "The Heart Guard will advance"-but that could not be. Moiraine had told him a few words of the Old Toungue, and those were all he knew of it. The rest might as well be magpie chatter.

 

Again, this is before he got the memories from the Foxes. That is an incredibly detailed memory of a battle, and it's obviously a memory of a battle that he led in a previous life (if there was any doubt about that, the line about "he was known as a gambler" should erase that.)

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Not sure what about that you would call a detailed memory?

 

This. From The Dragon Reborn, pages 214-216:

 

"Muad' drin tia dar allende caba'drin rhandiem" he murmered. The words were only sounds, yet they sparked...something.

 

The packed lines of spearmen streched a mile or more to either side below him, dotted with the pennants and banners of towns and cities and minor Houses. The river secured his flank on the left, the bogs and mires on the right. From the hillside he watched the spearmen struggle against the mass of Trollocs trying to break through, ten times the human's number. Spears pierced black Trolloc mail, and spiked axes carved bloody gaps in the human ranks. Screams and bellows harried the air. The sun burned hot overhead in a cloudless sky, and shimmers of heat rose above the battle line. Arrows still rained down from the enemy, slaying Trolloc and human alike. He had called his archers back, but the Dreadlords did not care so long as they broke his line. On the ridge behind him, the Heart Guard awaited his command, horses stamping impatiently. Armor on men and horses alike shone silver in the sunlight; neither men nor animals could stand the heat much longer.

 

They must win here or die. He was known as a gambler; it was time to toss the dice. In a voice that carried over the tumult below, he gave the order as he swung up into his saddle. "Footmen prepare to pass cavalry foward!" His bannermen rode close beside him, the Red Eagle banner flapping over his head, as the command was repeated up and down the line.

 

Below, the spearmen suddenly moved, sidestepping with good discipline, narrowing their formations, opening wide gaps between. Gaps into which the Trollocs poured, roaring bestial cries, like a black, oozing tide of death.

 

He drew his sword, raised it high. "Foward the Heart Guard!" He dug his heels in, and the mount leaped down the slope. Behind him, hooves thundered in the charge. "Foward!!" He was the first to strike into the Trollocs, his sword rising and falling, his bannerman close behind. "For the honor of the Red Eagle!" The Heart Guard pounded into the gaps between the spearmen, smashing the tide, hurling it back. "The Red Eagle!" Half-human faces snarled at him, oddly curves swords sougt him, but he cut his way even deeper. Win or die. "Manetheren!".

 

Mat's hand trembled as he raised it to his forehead. "Los Valdas Cuebiyari" he muttered. He was almost sure he knew what it meant-"Foward the Heart Guard", or maybe "The Heart Guard will advance"-but that could not be. Moiraine had told him a few words of the Old Toungue, and those were all he knew of it. The rest might as well be magpie chatter.

 

Again, this is before he got the memories from the Foxes. That is an incredibly detailed memory of a battle, and it's obviously a memory of a battle that he led in a previous life (if there was any doubt about that, the line about "he was known as a gambler" should erase that.)

 

Ah my bad Yos. I was thinking TGH for some reason. Yes you are correct, and that is why some think he is Aemon reborn. Well done.

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I always thought, Ishy/Moridin was the best source we had (aside from interviews of course) about what the DO wants. The AS and other characters talk as if they know, but they talk a lot of crap about all kinds of stuff. I thought I'd basically understood that Moridin's position was that existence was pointless; that it had no goal, no meaning, therefore the only logical thing to work for was non-existence. If he's driven by logic as is said and is obviously aware that the WOT world is reincarnation heavy, then it explains why he would seek a total non-existence rather that just a personal, suicidal one. I have the impression that he at least believes that this is the DO's true goal - unmaking existence. I take this to be the goal behind breaking the wheel or destroying the pattern or however you want to say it. My question is, is this only Moridin's wish or the DO's as well? Does he want to cease along with the rest he'll destroy or is it a game where he's screwing with the Creator as some have said? Not to get absurd with thinking about this, but the whole Yin/Yang balance thing seems a little arbitrary once you get to that kind of cosmic level. If that's the case, and the struggle is just perpetual...perpetuation...then Moridin's view on the situation makes a kind of sense to me.

 

Rand's VOG POV would seem to contradict that notion, if he lives again to not only love again but to correct past life mistakes and do things better. That's a progressive sentiment, and if it's indicative of the Creator's perspective as well then it leads one to think that a kind of perfection could also conceivably break the wheel....I don't know. Honestly, it seems like a kind of murky amalgamation of Christianity and Eastern philosophy and I'm not sure there's a clear way to parse it all out.

 

I wish I could find quotes, but I only have the books on audio now.

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