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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
joeron bigelow

why does the dark one want to win?

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I have a problem with why does the dark one or ish or moridin want to stop the wheel and destroy everything.

 

Shouldn't they want to just stop whatever movement or people are against them so that they may rule forever? Don't they want eternal life, not eternal death.

 

That's what I am confused about. In other book series, the reasons for wanting destruction of all is given at some point, but in the WoT, i'm not clear on why the bad guys want the destruction.

 

for example - the series with puck and the snake men, they wanted to destroy everything to get their god back or something to that effect, and it was clearly defined and rehashed 100x times per page.

 

I dont see it here. Or am I mistaken?

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its the dark ones nature to destroy. As for Ishamael, he just doesnt see the point in playing the game any longer, knowing that even if the light wins then the battle will just begin anew later.

 

I dont think the other Chosen really understand that everyone will die, I think they are kidding themselves thinking that they will just get to take over.

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Well, I think the Forsaken are being a little naive here. They expect eternal life, as promised by the DO. But I think the DO is just flat out lieing to them. They'll be dust like the rest of the world when he finally is completely free. They think he will remake the pattern to suit his own desires, and so will transfer their threads over intact. I think the DO just wants to destroy the Pattern. The DO is Chaos, or at least a force working towards chaos. What is the opposite of chaos? Pattern. So, the DO wants to destroy order/pattern, simple as that. He won't re-make the pattern to suit his own desires. His desires are incomprehensible to humans. It is a human (Forsaken/DF) failing that the DO exploits to reach his ultimate goal of freedom from the prison he was placed in by the Creator, and the subsequent destruction of the Pattern.

 

Ishy is a little different than the other forsaken, however. The others are fools who are mislead through their own petty desires. Ishy is/was a philosopher, however, and probably realizes the DO's end-game. He just feels that fighting against it is foolish. The DO will eventually win. The Light needs to win over and over and over again forever. The DO only needs to win once. Ishy sees the futility of the struggle and so works towards ending it all, because the whole thing is pointless anyway. He is very nihilistic. Why fight when it will all be destroyed and nothing ever will mean anything?

Edited by Whizbang

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The Dark One's wish to destroy everything, doesn't make sense to us. But it's it's nature, it's simply what it wants. Just as the Creator wanted to create, the Dark One wants to destroy,

 

It's like asking why the tide comes in and goes out, it does, because that is how the laws that govern how it behaves makes it do that. There isn't a why, (In the sense that you're (the OP) asking the why)

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The Dark One's wish to destroy everything, doesn't make sense to us. But it's it's nature, it's simply what it wants. Just as the Creator wanted to create, the Dark One wants to destroy,

 

It's like asking why the tide comes in and goes out, it does, because that is how the laws that govern how it behaves makes it do that. There isn't a why, (In the sense that you're (the OP) asking the why)

 

which chapter was that explained?

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It's inferred throughout the books, especially in the later books, where Moridin expounds on it, Herid Fel is one of the first that start the thought process in the books, and Verin as well explains in more detail showing us, that you can't apply human logic to the Dark One, because He operates on a different scale.

 

What he wants, is the End of All, that much is said both in the books, and by RJ

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It's a game the Dark One and the Creator play between themselves. The Creator creates universes and voluntarily abstains from directly affecting them afterwards, the Dark One very much wants to interfere but is barred by the Patter, and has to create strife, division, war, and paradoxes to try and get in.

 

I don't think the Dark One is particular to Rand's universe, although I could be mistaken.

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Well, if you were immortal but spent 99% of all time locked in a box... wouldn't you want to stop the cycle?

The wheel itself is his enemy, in times past when he has 'won' the wheel just spins out some new hero and a new set of circumstances and he is eventually back in his prison. Such is the nature of the wheel of time.

 

Which reminds me of something I've thought before... Mat is often referred to as having the Dark One's own luck. The Dark One seems to have pretty terrible luck as far as I can tell, I mean the entire world is out to get him and his followers are all relatively incompetent. I mean, a man who is several thousand years old and much stronger than Rand can't find a better way to convert him or kill him than he does in the first 3 books? Clearly Mat's luck is the Creators own luck, as far as I can tell.

Edited by ozimandias

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The better question is why does the Creator create things. He knows the Dark One is just going to destroy them eventually, but he keeps making realities just so the things in then can eventually be undone by the Dark One... pretty cold blooded science experiment if you ask me.

 

But as the Creator is motivate to create, the Dark One is motivated to destroy. No particular reason other than that

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its the dark ones nature to destroy. As for Ishamael, he just doesnt see the point in playing the game any longer, knowing that even if the light wins then the battle will just begin anew later.

 

I dont think the other Chosen really understand that everyone will die, I think they are kidding themselves thinking that they will just get to take over.

 

The other Chosen are utter fools as Ishamael puts it.

 

Grandael almost got it, she stated: Whatever the Creator creates, the Dark One can destroy.

 

Shai'tan wants to have his fun, just like the Creator. Nice lab experiment.

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We don't really know. No one knows what the Dark One actually wants, or what he's actually trying to do.

 

Most of the Forsaken think he's trying to take over the world and then they will rule it forever in a horrible nightmarish place like the lands that fell under the shadow in the age of legands. They believe in trying to save the world so they can rule it, which is why even they stopped using balefire during the War of Shadow.

 

Morridan thinks that the they are wrong, and the Dark One is just trying to destroy the world.

 

We don't really know who is right. I would think the Morridon is closer, that the Dark One is trying to destroy the world; the "bubbles of evil" are killing indiscriminatly and turning whole parts of cities and everyone in them into dust, and when Rand almost destroyed everything, it was pretty much stated that that the Dark One was trying to manipulate him into doing that.

 

But then again, the Blight isn't a land where nothing lives; there is a huge amount of life in the Blight, it's just twisted and evil. If the dark one really just wanted a blasted lifeless moonscape, then why isn't the Blight like that?

 

Really, we just don't know.

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We pretty much don't know. Moridin seems to think that the DO will destroy everything, but I don't know if he ever mentioned the DO destroying itself. Maybe it gets to go free, into whatever else is outside of the pattern, that he was imprisoned from getting to in the first place. I can't remember any instance of Moridin or anyone else saying for sure that the DO would be destroyed when the pattern gets destroyed. I could be wrong.

 

Ishamael/Moridin's own reasons for wanting to undo the world basically consist of: it can't be saved, and it's not exactly a happy place, so the smartest thing to do would be to destroy it and get it over with. What this jolly ray of sunshine was doing walking around the most Utopian age the world can remember, I can't imagine. Seriously, why in the hell was he so unhappy? Why is THAT his logical conclusion? I mean, everything else he says makes sense... DO's immortal, sure. Can't beat him, sure. Let's go ahead and destroy the world? But we like the world. And since it doesn't matter either way, there's no harm in preserving it again. Clearly, this man was already crazy before he ever met the Dark One.

 

And if this was the argument he presented to the folks at the Hall of the Servants, what sort of moron would turn to the Shadow expecting rewards after that? "Hey, guys, this Dark One dude is pretty tough, and I don't see the point in continuing to have fun and enjoy life, so let's all just die, because that's what's gonna happen when the DO eventually wins anyway!" -- "Awesome! If we turn to the Shadow we get to become immortal and rule the world!!!"

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We don't really know. No one knows what the Dark One actually wants, or what he's actually trying to do.

 

I would say this quote makes it pretty clear and Ishy has the right of it...

 

Interview: Jun 26th, 1996

 

Compuserve Chat (Verbatim)

Martin Reznick

 

How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

Robert Jordan

 

I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator...carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books. It's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

 

The creator creates the DO tries to destroy.

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We don't really know. No one knows what the Dark One actually wants, or what he's actually trying to do.

 

I would say this quote makes it pretty clear and Ishy has the right of it...

 

Interview: Jun 26th, 1996

 

Compuserve Chat (Verbatim)

Martin Reznick

 

How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

Robert Jordan

 

I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator...carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books. It's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

 

The creator creates the DO tries to destroy.

 

That's pretty vague, honestly. Ying and the yang just means that they are opposites and are locked in an eternal struggle, not that the DO wants to destroy the universe.

 

I mean, like I said, I lean towards that point of view myself, but that quote doesn't actually prove it.

 

Ishamael/Moridin's own reasons for wanting to undo the world basically consist of: it can't be saved' date=' and it's not exactly a happy place, so the smartest thing to do would be to destroy it and get it over with. What this jolly ray of sunshine was doing walking around the most Utopian age the world can remember, I can't imagine. Seriously, why in the hell was he so unhappy? Why is THAT his logical conclusion? I mean, everything else he says makes sense... DO's immortal, sure. Can't beat him, sure. Let's go ahead and destroy the world? But we [i']like [/i]the world. And since it doesn't matter either way, there's no harm in preserving it again. Clearly, this man was already crazy before he ever met the Dark One.

 

Well, remember, Moridin is Rand's dramatic foil. "Screw it, there's too much pain in the world, it can't be saved anyway, let's just destroy it now and save everyone a lot of suffering". Rand very nearly came to the same conclusion.

Edited by Yosarian

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Now that makes me think - every archenemy has a weakness. Do you foresee Rand asking Moridin at the brink of his death.."Elan Morin - don't you remember what it was like to love someone? That's what i fight for - love." and all the blah blah blah.

 

Then Moridin having his own epiphany and his own VoG moment...then turns on the DO like Vader on Palpatine.

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Ishamael/Moridin's own reasons for wanting to undo the world basically consist of: it can't be saved' date=' and it's not exactly a happy place, so the smartest thing to do would be to destroy it and get it over with. What this jolly ray of sunshine was doing walking around the most Utopian age the world can remember, I can't imagine. Seriously, why in the hell was he so unhappy? Why is THAT his logical conclusion? I mean, everything else he says makes sense... DO's immortal, sure. Can't beat him, sure. Let's go ahead and destroy the world? But we [i']like [/i]the world. And since it doesn't matter either way, there's no harm in preserving it again. Clearly, this man was already crazy before he ever met the Dark One.

 

Well, remember, Moridin is Rand's dramatic foil. "Screw it, there's too much pain in the world, it can't be saved anyway, let's just destroy it now and save everyone a lot of suffering". Rand very nearly came to the same conclusion.

 

Yeah, but Rand is at least living in terrible times. Ishamael, relatively early in the War of Power, decided "Oh screw this, let's just blow it up." He had lived most of his life in the AoL, a bright and happy place and time, as far as we can tell. Why give up so quickly? Unless he knows something nobody else does, it sounds like the decision of a madman.

 

 

Now that makes me think - every archenemy has a weakness. Do you foresee Rand asking Moridin at the brink of his death.."Elan Morin - don't you remember what it was like to love someone? That's what i fight for - love." and all the blah blah blah.

 

Then Moridin having his own epiphany and his own VoG moment...then turns on the DO like Vader on Palpatine.

 

I dunno about that, but sometimes I wonder if Moridin has been playing both sides of the board for real. Sometimes he seems to think he needs Rand, but he thought it was perfectly acceptable to kill him in order to stop him from using the Choedan Khal- because it could destroy the universe? But that's what he wants.

 

He does have some desire to kill Rand himself, which pretty much all the Forsaken seem to have, but it's not as malicious in his case, and he does a lot to keep Rand alive that just doesn't seem to be rewarding the Shadow.

 

Not that that would necessarily make him a good guy- he could just be doing it to keep things interesting, or because it guarantees that he, personally, cannot lose.

Edited by Sylvan Fox

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Ishamael/Moridin's own reasons for wanting to undo the world basically consist of: it can't be saved' date=' and it's not exactly a happy place, so the smartest thing to do would be to destroy it and get it over with. What this jolly ray of sunshine was doing walking around the most Utopian age the world can remember, I can't imagine. Seriously, why in the hell was he so unhappy? Why is THAT his logical conclusion? I mean, everything else he says makes sense... DO's immortal, sure. Can't beat him, sure. Let's go ahead and destroy the world? But we [i']like [/i]the world. And since it doesn't matter either way, there's no harm in preserving it again. Clearly, this man was already crazy before he ever met the Dark One.

 

Well, remember, Moridin is Rand's dramatic foil. "Screw it, there's too much pain in the world, it can't be saved anyway, let's just destroy it now and save everyone a lot of suffering". Rand very nearly came to the same conclusion.

 

Yeah, but Rand is at least living in terrible times. Ishamael, relatively early in the War of Power, decided "Oh screw this, let's just blow it up." He had lived most of his life in the AoL, a bright and happy place and time, as far as we can tell. Why give up so quickly? Unless he knows something nobody else does, it sounds like the decision of a madman.

 

Eh. To a world that had literally forgotten what war was, and had forgotten that the Dark One existed, the discovery of the Dark One and the start of the War of Power must have been pretty traumatic. I'm sure a lot of people went kind of nuts because they couldn't deal with the new reality. At least in Rand's time, people are relitivly familiar with the war, with the Dark One, with fighting Trollocs, with the idea that the Dragon would come and save them but break the world, and all that. Even if not everyone believes all of that, and even though no one was looking foward to it, it's something that people were on some level always expecting. In the AoL, not so much.

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We don't really know. No one knows what the Dark One actually wants, or what he's actually trying to do.

 

I would say this quote makes it pretty clear and Ishy has the right of it...

 

Interview: Jun 26th, 1996

 

Compuserve Chat (Verbatim)

Martin Reznick

 

How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

Robert Jordan

 

I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator...carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books. It's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

 

The creator creates the DO tries to destroy.

 

That's pretty vague, honestly. Ying and the yang just means that they are opposites and are locked in an eternal struggle, not that the DO wants to destroy the universe.

 

I mean, like I said, I lean towards that point of view myself, but that quote doesn't actually prove it.

 

Shrug. To me "dark counterpart" is pretty clear. What is the counterpart to creation? But yeah I guess it isn't cut and dry.

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Those times when Ishamael told Rand that there where times when the Dragon served him in the different turnings of the Wheel instead of the Light, how come the Dark One wasn't able to break free then?

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You could argue that based on most of what we've seen, the DO is more about corrupting and warping the things the pure Creator made then about just destroying them. That's most of what he seems to do.

 

That might just be the means to an end, though; it's hard to tell.

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Those times when Ishamael told Rand that there where times when the Dragon served him in the different turnings of the Wheel instead of the Light, how come the Dark One wasn't able to break free then?

 

In the past when the Dragon Soul turned to the DO the result ended in a draw, not a complete victory for the DO.

Interview: Jan 16th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Tim Kington (Paraphrased)

Question

 

(inaudible)

Robert Jordan

 

Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

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How can there be a draw in this battle? If the DO breaks free, he wins. If the DO doesn't break fee, he loses. It's a binary choice of outcomes, what can possibly constitute a draw in this case? I smell BS.

 

Leave Brandon out of this Lummox ;) This touches on it a bit more.

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 1st, 1998

SciFi.com Chat (Verbatim)

ROTHAAR

When Rand takes Verin and the others through a Portal Stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

ROBERT JORDAN

There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.

 

Btw think the other day you asked where the interviews were coming from. Here you go...

 

http://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php

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