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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Chapter 2 Audio Available on Tor


Luckers
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I am droning about CoT in this thread! But I cannot help it. I just read 3 chapters in the book with the sole purpose of Perrin buying food for his soldiers and horses! When to Wear Jewels (had a Seanchan chapter icon) where Perrin and Berelain prepare to go to So Harbor; Into So Harbor here the stuff is purchased; and Doing what must be done (or whatever the title) where the grain is sifted and Perrin's refusal to help the town is quasi-explained. And prior to that, Loial's months-long mission to the steddings is covered in one page (or maybe two). And Logain's chat with Rand about the problems of the BT is a couple of pages only. Maybe oats and barley are more important than the BT!

 

How is that related to chapter two? Useless filler material is not something Brandon introduced to WoT.

 

1. People complained just as much with CoT as the are doing now.

 

2. CoT was a "middle of the story" book. It was complained about alot, you can be sure. However, THIS IS THE FINAL BOOK. Most likely the last piece of the Wheel of Time we will ever read. There is a great difference between filler in the middle of a series and filler in the final book, when there is so much that still needs to be done and explained.

 

Your logic doesn't hold in this case.

 

Useless filler material material should not be in any book. Three chapters to buy oats and barley! How can that be justified? In Chapter two, the Pevara - Androl material was at least relevant to the plotline! Aviendha's subterfuge is not as relevant. But that is still not as bad as oats and barley.

Edited by Theodril
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This is nothing to do with Crossroads of Twilight. This is critiquing Chapter 2. Just because you think there is worse, doesn't mean criticism is invalid.

 

You have made a point, leave it be. This is not the place to discuss Crossroads of Twilight and your problems with it. This is about chapter 2. (this isn't an offical mod command, mind you)

 

I happen to agree, and many here would agree that the CoT had much useless filler. I totally understand and agree. However, that changes nothing about Chapter 2.

 

People are discontent with the filler in Chapter 2. Just because there is worse in another book, it doesn't invalidate the fact that it is still random filler.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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This is nothing to do with Crossroads of Twilight. This is critiquing Chapter 2. Just because you think there is worse, doesn't mean criticism is invalid.

 

You have made a point, leave it be. This is not the place to discuss Crossroads of Twilight and your problems with it. This is about chapter 2.

 

People are discontent with the filler. Just because there is worse in another book, it doesn't invalidate the fact that it is still random filler.

 

Since I already posted that chapter 2's purpose could have been achieved at 50% less length, I don't think that I am in the camp of trying to "invalidate the fact that it is still 'random' filler" or that "criticism (of chapter 2) is invalid." I never made those statements.

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Well then frankly there seems to be no point to your posts.

 

Please, if you wish to make a point, explain it so we can better understand what it is you are talking about.

 

Yes, RJ used filler. We all know that. Why bring it up? What purpose was the post supposed to serve, other than "give Brandon a break, RJ did worse"?

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Well then frankly there seems to be no point to your posts.

 

Please, if you wish to make a point, explain it so we can better understand what it is you are talking about.

 

Yes, RJ used filler. We all know that. Why bring it up? What purpose was the post supposed to serve, other than "give Brandon a break, RJ did worse"?

 

To try and summarize and end my point .... Chapter 2 is disappointing that filler material took valuable space over substantial plot development; but chapter 2 is not as bad as it seems compared to the rest of the series (CoT excluded). In fact, chapter 2 seems to have the same pace of the majority of beginning of book chapters in the series.

Edited by Theodril
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Well then frankly there seems to be no point to your posts.

 

Please, if you wish to make a point, explain it so we can better understand what it is you are talking about.

 

Yes, RJ used filler. We all know that. Why bring it up? What purpose was the post supposed to serve, other than "give Brandon a break, RJ did worse"?

 

To try and summarize and end my point .... Chapter 2 is disappointing that filler material took valuable space over substantial plot development; but chapter 2 is not as bad as it seems compared to the rest of the series (CoT excluded). In fact, chapter 2 seems to have the same pace of the majority of beginning of book chapters in the series.

 

Ahh, very well. Sorry, I just wasn't understanding your point. My bad.

 

Certainly a valid observation, it was just the way you put it that had me confused. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

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Well then frankly there seems to be no point to your posts.

 

Please, if you wish to make a point, explain it so we can better understand what it is you are talking about.

 

Yes, RJ used filler. We all know that. Why bring it up? What purpose was the post supposed to serve, other than "give Brandon a break, RJ did worse"?

 

To try and summarize and end my point .... Chapter 2 is disappointing that filler material took valuable space over substantial plot development; but chapter 2 is not as bad as it seems compared to the rest of the series (CoT excluded). In fact, chapter 2 seems to have the same pace of the majority of beginning of book chapters in the series.

 

Ahh, very well. Sorry, I just wasn't understanding your point. My bad.

 

Certainly a valid observation, it was just the way you put it that had me confused. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

 

No worries! :smile:

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One brief thought:

Those complaining about the use of male-female links being portrayed solely as using Saidar to strengthen weaves of Saidin etc, please consider the weave we've seen being portrayed. A gateway. Now, men and women create gateways in different ways - thus it's reasonable to assume that combining the two powers as the core threads of one weave might have bad consequences. Brandon has, quite reasonably, avoided a can of worms by portraying it as such.

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About 20 chapters is just too much detail for one day. And I guess it was to calibrate the timeline.

1- That's a completely subjective argument; you're basically saying "I don't approve of that much happening on a single day" instead of judging the occurrences on their own merits (that is, did we need to see it--or something like it--happen).

 

2- But what really bothers me is that you neither addressed what I said (as to the difference between style and pace) nor anything at all related to AMoL. Saying "RJ did a bad job", while certainly not devoid of merit, is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

1- It is not just that there is too much happening on one day. There is also the excessive amounts of fluff material used to describe and butter up those events. Elayne's complaints about the maid at the minor noble's house! Mat and Egeanin walking back to Luca's show and staring at Seanchan villagers and such! There is considerable filler material in those 17 chapters.

 

The same applies to Chapter two of AMoL. My comment was that it could have delivered its intended plot and literary objective with 50% less words.

 

2- I am not just saying that RJ did a bad job with early CoT, I am saying that Brandon's Chapter 2 isn't worse than early CoT. There is a considerable degree of "drag." My recollection is that the pace and style are significantly close. RJ gave us a few pages of Elayne's bath and clothing (pre bath and post bath). And Sanderson gave us the detail's of Aviendha's subterfuge skills when he could have jumped directly to Aviendha - Rand meeting and her telling him that she has just come from Elayne's tent giving him the general atmosphere and what he needed to know.

And still, you do not address what I said (style vs. pace). Yes, the pace of CoT was slow. So were the beginnings of many books. But while slow, those beginnings were used to lay down a foundation for the rest of the book, and sometime more books to come (think of Rand in the women's quarters in Fal Dara, Mat's gambling there, Rand's mental instability in the Mountains of Mist and so on). That you say nothing happened in Elayne's PoV other than her thoughts about the maid doesn't make it so -- in fact we've had a summery of her actions to solidify her rule and gather support for Caemlyn, and the reason she so desperately needed Dyelin later on. That is all still quite beside the point of there being no comparison in style between any part of CoT and chapter 2.

 

Also, Barid was right. Your core argument seems to be that chapter 2 appears better to you when compared to CoT. That's okay, but it doesn't intrinsically reflect on the material itself; put differently, it only touches on what makes you feel the way you do; it's completely subjective. Offered as a suggestion to alleviate somebody else's discontent, that's just fine. But there's no argument there to affect someone who doesn't feel the same as you do (that is, nothing objective to consider).

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Chapter two would be better if it was only androl and pevara. There was significantly less useless and bad writing than in the elayne/avi section

Edited by shortkut
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Chapter two would be better if it was only androl and pevara. There was significantly less useless and bad writing than in the elayne/avi section

 

Really? The successful link was good and however the double bond MIGHT play out, oh and the imminent arrival of Logain, but all those things should have happened in the last book. Androl and Pevara sat there having the same conversation they've been having only this time they did it 3 times in one reading.

 

They are both equally useless if you ask me given that they are a book late; if you ask me aMoL should be so packed that not a single chapter was safe for early release, let alone 3.

 

Edit: Useless is the wrong word. And I forgot to point out not only 3 chapters released but one cut and donated to another book.

Edited by TootThatHorn
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I have to admit, CoT's was the first excerpt I've read before I got the book (until then I was scarcely aware of the online community), but let me say this: I never used to feel that the characters were holding back just so nothing overly important would happen in those excerpts. Not even with Blood in the Air (that was very well done, I felt). I did this time.

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Chapter two would be better if it was only androl and pevara. There was significantly less useless and bad writing than in the elayne/avi section

 

Really? The successful link was good and however the double bond MIGHT play out, oh and the imminent arrival of Logain, but all those things should have happened in the last book. Androl and Pevara sat there having the same conversation they've been having only this time they did it 3 times in one reading.

 

They are both equally useless if you ask me given that they are a book late; if you ask me aMoL should be so packed that not a single chapter was safe for early release, let alone 3.

 

Edit: Useless is the wrong word. And I forgot to point out not only 3 chapters released but one cut and donated to another book.

i was comparing it to how it was. I never meant to imply it would be a great chapter, just better
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I have to admit, CoT's was the first excerpt I've read before I got the book (until then I was scarcely aware of the online community), but let me say this: I never used to feel that the characters were holding back just so nothing overly important would happen in those excerpts. Not even with Blood in the Air (that was very well done, I felt). I did this time.

 

Ohhhh.

 

Oh.

 

You know, I'd never thought of that. And now that you say it, I'm willing to believe that's a possibility as to why the pre-release material has seemed so lacking in urgency. If so, the craftsperson in me shudders.

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If that's true yoniy0, it's just yet another compromise in a string of compromises that began with how they split the first book. If they intentionally released poor chapters to not give things away early, it might suggest that others chapters are of higher quality, but that doesn't excuse that there are such poor chapters in the series now, thrown in simply to give us paltry scraps to chew on in these months. If these are actually chapters of average to good quality as far as AMOL goes, as one might release in hopes of generating further interest and sales, then the Light help us all. Androl's first chapter should have been pretty early in TGS, and the AMoL BT stuff so far should have been in ToM. It's not like they've given away anything whatsoever except that suddenly Androl and Pevara can apparently break the rules of linking.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Blood and Bloody Ashes!!!!I As most of you readers that love W.O.T.; I feel that this chapter is making us doubt that the saga we love so much is going to be making us feel that we have been taken to the end enraptured as we have been for most of the series. I fear ,is going to leave us with more questions than answers; it will change the little things we love about the characters to the point that we shall mourn again the premature death of the Creator. I just hope they all survive and live happily ever after. Our Heroes and Heroines have already been through too much!!!

I am loyal to the series, and that is why I will finish reading it. But I am Mourning towards T.G.

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I admit, I found CoT boring, but to me it was just RJ writing the boring bit of adventuring. Still there was some good stuff in there. I am not down on Brandon's writing, I have quite enjoyed the last two books. I was frustrated by Chapter 2 because, well, we are at the end, and really nothing happened that moved the plot forward. Do we need a lot more character development at this point? For secondary characters? Other than that we got, okay Avi is sneaky, she hasn't lost her leet maiden skillz, and she got permission or something to sleep with Rand. I did like the discussion with the Wise Ones though, and I am very interested to see how that will all work out.

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