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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Chapter 2: Plot Specific


Barid Bel Medar
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Aren't the bulk of the Asha'man still essentially neutral? Loyal to Taim yes, but neither natural darkfriends nor turned. He has to move slow to keep Logain's Androl's faction from growing. Things should move to a head quickly, if for no other reason that Taim and Logain are running out of book to square off in (although I continue to think the bulk of Logain's glory will come post-series).

 

Not to mention Rand via Logain has deployed a bulk of Asha'man throughout Rand'land. To hold off the Seanchan, and fight along the Blight.

 

The whole BT bugs me a bit as a plot hole by RJ to begin with. Granted Rand's time is precious. But we see him in T'A'R spying on Elayne, Egwene, etc.. We see him jumping around for his battles with various FS. Yet, he doesn't spend ANY time checking in on the BT. A BT who he entrusted to Taim, someone he barely trusted from the moment he met him. Above any of the things he has going on, making an army of channelers (the most powerful force in all of R'land) was not even worth regularly checking up on??! Even spying on??

 

With 200-300 Ashaman, he could silence any Seanchan force. Any trolloc force. Etc etc.. Why wouldn't that be like #2 on the list besides fighting the FS... Yet he takes so little personal interest in ensuring their loyalty and ability. This makes ZERO sense even to an insane Rand.

 

It would be like the President of the US taking zero interest of the development / security / deployment of our nuclear weapons... Though not talked about, I would guess every President since Truman looks very closely at the reports regarding our nuclear status/capability on a very regular basis. And would know instantly if something were wrong there... One does not implenent a program for the most powerful weapons in existence and then not keep tabs on it..

 

Rand does not want to face Taim because it makes LTT go nuts.The more insane Rand becomes the more difficult for him to stop LTT from seizing the power so it would make sense to avoid the one person which makes LTT totally lose it.

 

Ahh the old head in the sand approach on the eve of TG. Makes sense...

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Well if a link with a woman can beat a dreamspike,it would be pretty weak.As the dreamspike was used as a military tool in the AoL where men and womne linked all the time.How much sense would that make if all that is needed to break a dreamspike would be a link.

 

Now if the double bond is used to break the dreamspike and make gateways,it makes more sense as the "bond weave" was unknown in AoL so whoever made the dreamspike would not have protected against it.

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Aren't the bulk of the Asha'man still essentially neutral? Loyal to Taim yes, but neither natural darkfriends nor turned. He has to move slow to keep Logain's Androl's faction from growing. Things should move to a head quickly, if for no other reason that Taim and Logain are running out of book to square off in (although I continue to think the bulk of Logain's glory will come post-series).

 

Not to mention Rand via Logain has deployed a bulk of Asha'man throughout Rand'land. To hold off the Seanchan, and fight along the Blight.

 

The whole BT bugs me a bit as a plot hole by RJ to begin with. Granted Rand's time is precious. But we see him in T'A'R spying on Elayne, Egwene, etc.. We see him jumping around for his battles with various FS. Yet, he doesn't spend ANY time checking in on the BT. A BT who he entrusted to Taim, someone he barely trusted from the moment he met him. Above any of the things he has going on, making an army of channelers (the most powerful force in all of R'land) was not even worth regularly checking up on??! Even spying on??

 

With 200-300 Ashaman, he could silence any Seanchan force. Any trolloc force. Etc etc.. Why wouldn't that be like #2 on the list besides fighting the FS... Yet he takes so little personal interest in ensuring their loyalty and ability. This makes ZERO sense even to an insane Rand.

 

It would be like the President of the US taking zero interest of the development / security / deployment of our nuclear weapons... Though not talked about, I would guess every President since Truman looks very closely at the reports regarding our nuclear status/capability on a very regular basis. And would know instantly if something were wrong there... One does not implenent a program for the most powerful weapons in existence and then not keep tabs on it..

 

Rand does not want to face Taim because it makes LTT go nuts.The more insane Rand becomes the more difficult for him to stop LTT from seizing the power so it would make sense to avoid the one person which makes LTT totally lose it.

 

Ahh the old head in the sand approach on the eve of TG. Makes sense...

 

He is insane, "sense" can hardly be attributed to things he does for several books.

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He is insane, "sense" can hardly be attributed to things he does for several books.

 

Careful...you don't want to get Kael going off about definitions of insanity again or Vardarmus arguing that Dark Rand is actually "rational Rand". :wink:

Edited by Suttree
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Why are Androl and co. still alive? That's inexcusable right there, so I don't pay too much mind to the logic behind keeping Logain for this long but turning Mezar and what's-his-face first. Perhaps they just figure nothing at all can go wrong for them, so they're taking their time and having fun.

 

After reading Androl’s pov in ToM I had no doubt that Logain and the others were captured. The reason that they were not 13x13ed immediately is probably the Bond. Maybe it is necessary to 13x13 the Asha’man and his AS at exactly the same time, or maybe it is just harder if there is a Bond. Either way, Logain would be the hardest because he has Bonded 2 AS.

Chapter 2 just added to my conviction, because, I think, that this is the first Asha’man bonded to an AS that we have seen “Turned”. Maybe the DF Asha’men/Taim/Forsaken only just worked out the process. But now that they have it, they are pretty sure that they can have Logain 13x13ed by tomorrow.

I wonder if the Androl/Pherva double Bond will maybe make them even more 13x13 resistant?

It sure was irritating to see Androl/Pherva finally link and hear him say “I wonder if I can make a Gateway now” then just waste time picking up and moving things around.

“We are trapped in the Pit of Doom!!! I might have a way out!!!! But first I want to play with things” LOL

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He is insane, "sense" can hardly be attributed to things he does for several books.

 

Careful...you don't want to get Kael going off about definitions of insanity again or Vardarmus arguing that Dark Rand is actually "rational Rand". :wink:

 

Kael didn't think Rand was insane!?

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I think the oddness in Min's viewing is that Avi has seen the future, and has a chance to change it. If she follows Bair's advice, she already has. That is why Min had the feeling that something would be odd.

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Chapter 2 just added to my conviction, because, I think, that this is the first Asha’man bonded to an AS that we have seen “Turned”. Maybe the DF Asha’men/Taim/Forsaken only just worked out the process. But now that they have it, they are pretty sure that they can have Logain 13x13ed by tomorrow.

Yes, that could be it, assuming they don't have Toveine and Gabrelle at hand (otherwise, they wouldn't balk at killing them). How they might've taken Logain alone, or why the two AS would remain hidden for this long, is a different question of course.

 

And I agree that Pevara's freak-out was orchestrated to create a delay, and that alone. More than likely because chapter two was supposed to be released before the publication date, but they didn't intend to release that whole arc with it.

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Well if a link with a woman can beat a dreamspike,it would be pretty weak.As the dreamspike was used as a military tool in the AoL where men and womne linked all the time.How much sense would that make if all that is needed to break a dreamspike would be a link.

 

Now if the double bond is used to break the dreamspike and make gateways,it makes more sense as the "bond weave" was unknown in AoL so whoever made the dreamspike would not have protected against it.

the bond was an unknown thing in AOL as Semirhage plainly states in LoC when she is torturing the AS and her warder

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Chapter 2 just added to my conviction, because, I think, that this is the first Asha’man bonded to an AS that we have seen “Turned”. Maybe the DF Asha’men/Taim/Forsaken only just worked out the process. But now that they have it, they are pretty sure that they can have Logain 13x13ed by tomorrow.

Yes, that could be it, assuming they don't have Toveine and Gabrelle at hand (otherwise, they wouldn't balk at killing them). How they might've taken Logain alone, or why the two AS would remain hidden for this long, is a different question of course.

 

And I agree that Pevara's freak-out was orchestrated to create a delay, and that alone. More than likely because chapter two was supposed to be released before the publication date, but they didn't intend to release that whole arc with it.

 

Agreed, but not only that. Androl is clearly a special case in that he is so exceptional with Gateways. He has always been "bigger/better" than everyone else. It is clearly a Talent, a very unusual Talent as he is otherwise so week. Now comes the Dreamspike. & even with his "tiny" power, he "almost" can form the Gateway when everyone else does not even come close. I always thought that he would be able to defeat the DS if he would link, but now there is another factor ( the enhanced double bond ) that might also add to his ability. We have already seen the regular "bond" give Warders enhanced physical and mental capabilities every since tEotW. We never were told of how this was effecting "our channelers" that were bonded, either AS or Asha'men", maybe because it was small or just went unnoticed. But with this Enhanced "double bond", i think that we are going to hear of significant impact. I also think it will add to the Pherva "being Awsome", whitch I can't wait for,

 

This chapter made she terriably jumpy, which was anoying, but we saw similar at the BT with the "breaking" of that Black AS. I really can't wait for both of them to start Kicking Ass.

 

Added thought, could the Double Bond possable give some other extra ability? Like allowing them both to channel when linked in a circle? This is very doubtful, but we are talking entirely new territory here, so we could get some enexpected benifits. Can't wait to see.

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He is insane, "sense" can hardly be attributed to things he does for several books.

 

Careful...you don't want to get Kael going off about definitions of insanity again or Vardarmus arguing that Dark Rand is actually "rational Rand". :wink:

 

Kael didn't think Rand was insane!?

 

Lol, nope. Argued against it every time it was mentioned.

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Well if a link with a woman can beat a dreamspike,it would be pretty weak.As the dreamspike was used as a military tool in the AoL where men and womne linked all the time.How much sense would that make if all that is needed to break a dreamspike would be a link.

 

Now if the double bond is used to break the dreamspike and make gateways,it makes more sense as the "bond weave" was unknown in AoL so whoever made the dreamspike would not have protected against it.

the bond was an unknown thing in AOL as Semirhage plainly states in LoC when she is torturing the AS and her warder

 

Not sure where I disagree?

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Interesting to see whitebridge become a new stageing ground, from Perrin trading his good grain with the towns folk, the refugees from the west described in the prologue heading that way to the refugees from Camyln being sent there. Any chance something ccol may be done with the whitebridge itself? could it be some kind of Ter'angreal?

 

Some time ago I wondered whether the White Bridge might be the other sa'angreal stronger than Callandor that a man can use.. I'll see if I can find the link.

 

ETA: Ah yes, here it is:

 

http://www.dragonmou...page__st__40#56

 

thanks for this, interesting stuff, i should probably post this there, but in my head i had more of a warding function in mind...the gateway idea is cool. If it were for ships think of the possiblities.....

Edited by Hyronimus
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The warder bond and double-bond is non-AoL for sure. And it may be enough to circumvent a Spike and/ or 13x13. Problem is, we know very little about the mechanics of either thingy.

Pure linking (M-M or MF) can't work - twas too well known in AoL.

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Yes, but we have to take everything into the context of Androl's unusual Talent. That--like Perrin, Min and Hurin--might be unknown in the AoL.

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Well remember the comment in ToM Paraphrased:

 

 

"Taim called it impossible. Logain called it impressive."

 

 

I think that it is Androl's Talent that will be the deal breaker, but he needs it bolstered by extra power with Saidar. Taim's comment, what with him being all Forsaken and trying to be like AoL'er calling it "impossible" would suggest such a thing didn't exist in the AoL, so the Dreamspike would still be effective in AoL. If they knew about it, Androl would have been killed or turned straight away.

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There must be a way to figure out the "key". I doubt Moridin found a dream spike he had known in the AoL, so he knew how to figure it out. This double-bond is most likely how the two will work out the problem, 4 eyes looking at it so to speak, with both halves of the power. There will most likely be other advantages, and probably some disadvantages. I've wondered ever since the first AM/AS bond why they didn't do this, and what would happen if they did. I think this is the foundation that future male/female channelers will build on. It's the only way the women will truly trust the men. And vise versa. It would be nice if the wheel turned to the point that all men weren't wool-headeded lummoxes...

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Rand wasn't "insane"

 

LTT was real.

 

What do I mean by real? Real as in TRULY the thoughts of LTT reaching across the years and landing in Rand's head.

 

Its clear.

 

 

Fish

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Rand wasn't "insane"

 

Interview: Nov 2nd, 2009

Ending The Wheel of Time: The GeekDad Interview with Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim)

GeekDad

 

Anyone who knows the books at all knows that Rand al'Thor hears the voice of Lews Therin in his head—sometimes cackling like a madman, other times more helpfully. After wading through all of Robert Jordan's notes, and listening to those dictated comments, do you have a new sympathy for Rand?

Brandon Sanderson

 

 

 

Robert Jordan dropped a bomb at the end of Knife of Dreams, with what Semirhage was saying about or to Rand, talking about his level of stability. I remember as a reader, going through as a kid—I think Robert Jordan blindsided me with Lews Therin, because I'd been told that "Rand will go mad, Rand will go mad," but I didn't accept that voice as Rand going mad. I accepted that as another person, inside of Rand's head, and not a delusion or anything like that. Across the course of the books, Robert Jordan brought together this thing that he'd promised: "No, look, this guy is just going crazy. Yes, he's seeing part of his past life, but he's going insane.

Edited by Suttree
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I should have been more specific. I meant that Rand wasn't insane - BECAUSE he had a "fake" voice in his head.

 

Everything was certainly driving Rand beyond the breaking point - but when he heard LTT he was hearing the actual real time thoughts of LTT. NOT a construct of his fragile psyche.

 

 

Fish

Edited by The Fisher King
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I should have been more specific. I meant that Rand wasn't insane - BECAUSE he had a "fake" voice in his head.

 

Everything was certainly driving Rand beyond the breaking point - but when he heard LTT he was hearing the actual real time thoughts of LTT. NOT a construct of his fragile psyche.

 

 

Fish

 

I disagree. The voice Rand was hearing was a construct based around the memories that were returning to him. You see these memories manifest without the LTT voice, especially in The Fires of Heaven. Rand, disturbed and frightened by these episodes, rejected this part of him, and you could say he partitioned those memories, and they became the basis for the insane voice in his head, created by the madness. So the LTT voice was based off of the memories, but they were not actually a connection to LTT as a separate person. Or that's how I see it.

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Certainly a fair analysis. Ive held since day one that LTT in Rand's head was every bit as "real" a third-age character as Mat or Perrin....and, not much released since then has changed my mind very much.

 

 

Fish

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Oh, no no no. This isn't a thread about constructism vs. realism. Take that to the appropriate place, if you care to discuss it further.

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Linking - Will Androl be able to weave a Gateway now? What will happen now after the disastrous results of the first linking?

This was often suggested before but I think it's even more obvious now that Androl will manage to make a gateway linked with Pevara. the failed first attempt is just tension building.

Weilyn's Back - Does this confirm Logain is indeed in Taim's hands. Is he already turned? Will they stage a rescue? Is it a lie, and Logain is still being hunted? What will happen to Naalam, Canler and Emarin? They are currently out and about. Where is Sandomere?

 

I'm pretty sure this is just a lie like all those before. Psycho warfare. But It does mean that the confrontation between Taim's and Androl's groups is just about to start.

I think that Androl with his knack of gateways and his words to Pevara of "being on the verge" being able to construct one will have him figuring out the "key" which Moridin mentioned to Graendal. If you know the "key" (code or specific manipulation of the weave) you can access gateways into and out of the Black Tower. Especially with him able to link with Pevara now.

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