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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Chapter 2: Plot Specific


Barid Bel Medar
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Speaking of Logain's party,

Logain told Rand back in KoD, ch 18 that he sent all the Asha'man with bonded Aes Sedai to Arad Doman and Illian. How does this square with Welyn and Denira being somewhere else with Logain? Sandomere has also bonded Ayako.

 

Logain apparently appeared back at the Black Tower after this and left in the middle of the night. Androl makes the distinction because he says that Logain got Rand to promote him to Dedicated (Androl) so Logain had come back, then he leaves again.

 

ToM: Working Leather

 

Androl had been worrying for weeks now. Ever since Logain had left in the night. Where had he gone? Why had he taken Donalo, Mezar and Welyn - three of the most powerful Dedicated loyal to him - along?

 

Here is where it makes it clear that this is after Logain returns from Rand.

 

ToM: Working Leather

 

Perhaps so weak he should never have been promoted from soldier. Logain had gone to the Lord Dragon about it; and made the promotion happen, against Taim's express wishes.

 

I suspect he took the three away from their duties, returned to the Black Tower, then went wherever it is they went.

actually all those three were with Logain and Rand when they went to meet Semirhage. I misquoted what Logain told Rand earlier. He said that he sent all the Asha'man with bonded Aes Sedai, except for those with Rand to Arad Doman and Illian. Rand must have sent them back to the Black Tower after Semirhage was captured so you were right about that.

 

there are small mistakes there though. Rand promoted Donalo, Mezar and Welyn to full Asha'man (they are still named Dedicated in the quote from ToM you give) at the end of KoD after the capture of Semirhage and the name of the Aes Sedai Welyn bonded is Jenare, not Denira.

Edited by herid
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Yeah, fair enough. Confusing in any case.

 

Mainly the point of asking, what on earth happened to Sandomere, is he just forgotten? Will he play a key role in the upcoming Logain-rescue? Perhaps he has gone into hiding and will contact Androl and co. with more information as to the exact location of Logain so they can bust him out. (keeping to plot specifics, not just an outright mistake)

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Aren't the bulk of the Asha'man still essentially neutral? Loyal to Taim yes, but neither natural darkfriends nor turned. He has to move slow to keep Logain's Androl's faction from growing. Things should move to a head quickly, if for no other reason that Taim and Logain are running out of book to square off in (although I continue to think the bulk of Logain's glory will come post-series).

 

Not to mention Rand via Logain has deployed a bulk of Asha'man throughout Rand'land. To hold off the Seanchan, and fight along the Blight.

 

The whole BT bugs me a bit as a plot hole by RJ to begin with. Granted Rand's time is precious. But we see him in T'A'R spying on Elayne, Egwene, etc.. We see him jumping around for his battles with various FS. Yet, he doesn't spend ANY time checking in on the BT. A BT who he entrusted to Taim, someone he barely trusted from the moment he met him. Above any of the things he has going on, making an army of channelers (the most powerful force in all of R'land) was not even worth regularly checking up on??! Even spying on??

 

With 200-300 Ashaman, he could silence any Seanchan force. Any trolloc force. Etc etc.. Why wouldn't that be like #2 on the list besides fighting the FS... Yet he takes so little personal interest in ensuring their loyalty and ability. This makes ZERO sense even to an insane Rand.

 

It would be like the President of the US taking zero interest of the development / security / deployment of our nuclear weapons... Though not talked about, I would guess every President since Truman looks very closely at the reports regarding our nuclear status/capability on a very regular basis. And would know instantly if something were wrong there... One does not implenent a program for the most powerful weapons in existence and then not keep tabs on it..

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This does beg the question: what were Logain, Mezar, Welyn and Donalo doing back in the BT? And what of Toveine and what's-her-face?

 

Anyone has any idea what's going on with the BT arc? I'm thoroughly confused.

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This does beg the question: what were Logain, Mezar, Welyn and Donalo doing back in the BT? And what of Toveine and what's-her-face?

 

Anyone has any idea what's going on with the BT arc? I'm thoroughly confused.

 

Yeah, I don't think anyone knows what is happening. As it stands, it seriously doesn't make any sense. Which I suspect is is the point.

 

To have a guess, I would say that Logain came back to the BT like he said he would to Rand, found out about the Turnings, followed Taim etc.. (to gather evidence for Rand) to the Town (I think the turnings are done there, not in the Black Tower) and got overpowered.

 

I suspect that Turning is not something done easily, and takes a fair bit of time, so they were held prisoner, perhaps questioned about Rand and the Asha'man that were sent out, and turned one by one. Logain being the last, because Taim being Taim, would want his petty cruel satisfaction at breaking Logain and bringing despair to Androl and co.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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yes, the BT sequence is very confusing, more so because unlike RJ Brandon never bothers with clear time markers and so we really have no idea when the described scenes are taking place. In particular, I mentioned above the following apparent inconsistency. Rand raised Donalo, Mezar and Welyn to full Asha'man at the end of KoD. This is mentioned in KoD, ch 27 (the scene when Semi was captured). But in the quote from TOM that Barid gave Androl thinks of all three as Dedicated. Is this a mistake or not? if it's not that explains at least some of what was going on. Logain left the BT to go to Rand in KOD and hasn't been back since. Then Logain is likely free and Mezar and Welyn were captured when he sent them back to the BT for one reason or another.

Or it could very easily be a mistake in which case something completely different might be going on. I tend to think this is just a mistake because Rand thinks that Logain must be at the BT when he sends Naeff there in TOM.

Edited by herid
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yes, the BT sequence is very confusing, more so because unlike RJ Brandon never bothers with clear time markers and so we really have no idea when the described scenes are taking place. In particular, I mentioned above the following apparent inconsistency. Rand raised Donalo, Mezar and Welyn to full Asha'man at the end of KoD. This is mentioned in KoD, ch 27 (the scene when Semi was captured). But in the quote from TOM that Barid gave Androl thinks of all three as Dedicated. Is this a mistake or not? if it's not that explains at least some of what was going on. Logain left the BT to go to Rand in KOD and hasn't been back since. Then Logain is likely free and Mezar and Welyn were captured when he sent them back to the BT for one reason or another.

Or it could very easily be a mistake in which case something completely different might be going on. I tend to think this is just a mistake because Rand thinks that Logain must be at the BT when he sends Naeff there in TOM.

 

Indeed, I would say that it was him not been back yet, but Androl mentions that Logain got him promoted to Dedicated via Rand, and he wonders where Logain had gone. If he recieved news about Logain raising him to Dedicated, he wouldn't be wondering about where Logain is, because he knows he has been with Rand. Thus, it seems like Logain has been back after leaving Rand.

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it's not clear when that scene with Logain going to Rand to raise Androl took place. It may have happened a while back. So I don't think it can be used as a time marker.

Edited by herid
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it's not clear when that scene with Logain going to Rand to raise Androl took place. It may have happened a while back. So I don't think it can be used as a time marker.

 

Hmm, I suppose that's true. It only rules out that Androl was talking about Logain leaving the first time, because he had never met Rand as an Asha'man before then.

 

It has to have been after the Semirhage incident that he went away with the 3 of them, he wasn't acting secretly then, and he went back to the Black Tower to gather Asha'man.

 

It could be that it was when Logain went back to gather Asha'man for Rand, but it seems that Androl should have thought to connect the two events, a mass exodus of the Black Tower with Logain leaving.

 

My thoughts are still that Logain returned after doing his tasks for Rand to gather evidence against Taim like Rand said he should. He then proceeded to gather evidence and found something, went off secretly with his 3 and got into a hot mess. Thus, the Dedicated comment is just a mistake.

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Barid, I think you're hung up on Androl's perception that Logain went away. It could just as easily have been the timing of Taim's move against Logain, Donalo, Mezar and Welyn.

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Barid, I think you're hung up on Androl's perception that Logain went away. It could just as easily have been the timing of Taim's move against Logain, Donalo, Mezar and Welyn.

 

 

I was elaborating on when they went in regards to the inconsistencies. They had to have come back sometime after the Semirhage incident with all that seems to have happened, even more so if that is when they were captured. Which means Androl would have known about the 3 being raised to Asha'man. Where they went doesn't really matter.

 

Unless you just mean my thoughts on what's happening, in which case you could indeed be correct, that's just what I think on the matter.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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My point was -- it's not certain at all that Logain actually left in the middle of the night, and then was caught by Taim's people. He simply disappeared.

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My point was -- it's not certain at all that Logain actually left in the middle of the night, and then was caught by Taim's people. He simply disappeared.

 

Yeah, fair enough. As I said, just my thoughts on what happened.

 

Although I think it would be very hard to make Logain and 3 of his most powerful "disappear" without anyone noticing. Especially considering that they also have 4 Aes Sedai bonded to them. Capturing Logain 3 powerful Asha'man with 4 Aes Sedai quietly inside of the Black Tower would be near impossible.

 

All things considered though, It could very well be the case.

 

It could definitely be done, but not without notice. Send 20 or so Asha'man while they sleep, it would be relatively quiet, but someone would notice 20 Asha'man in the middle of the night going to Logain's house. Unless they just say everyone was asleep and nobody saw anything. With the tension, I find it hard to believe Logain would not have his own watch.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Aren't the bulk of the Asha'man still essentially neutral? Loyal to Taim yes, but neither natural darkfriends nor turned. He has to move slow to keep Logain's Androl's faction from growing. Things should move to a head quickly, if for no other reason that Taim and Logain are running out of book to square off in (although I continue to think the bulk of Logain's glory will come post-series).

 

Not to mention Rand via Logain has deployed a bulk of Asha'man throughout Rand'land. To hold off the Seanchan, and fight along the Blight.

 

The whole BT bugs me a bit as a plot hole by RJ to begin with. Granted Rand's time is precious. But we see him in T'A'R spying on Elayne, Egwene, etc.. We see him jumping around for his battles with various FS. Yet, he doesn't spend ANY time checking in on the BT. A BT who he entrusted to Taim, someone he barely trusted from the moment he met him. Above any of the things he has going on, making an army of channelers (the most powerful force in all of R'land) was not even worth regularly checking up on??! Even spying on??

 

With 200-300 Ashaman, he could silence any Seanchan force. Any trolloc force. Etc etc.. Why wouldn't that be like #2 on the list besides fighting the FS... Yet he takes so little personal interest in ensuring their loyalty and ability. This makes ZERO sense even to an insane Rand.

 

It would be like the President of the US taking zero interest of the development / security / deployment of our nuclear weapons... Though not talked about, I would guess every President since Truman looks very closely at the reports regarding our nuclear status/capability on a very regular basis. And would know instantly if something were wrong there... One does not implenent a program for the most powerful weapons in existence and then not keep tabs on it..

 

The President doesn't have someone with a hot line to his mind..

 

I'm beginning to wonder whether Moridin has been using the link to suppress any thoughts Rand might be having about the BT.

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Logain met Rand in CoT, was not believed about Taim, was sent to the Seanchan. He was at the Semirhage meeting, by when Welyn and Sandomere were full AM. He was then sent to the Sea Folk. After which his movements are all behind the scenes.

 

 

Here's how I think it went down:

 

Post KoD, the only info we have on Logain is from Androl in ToM, where he says Logain had taken three "Dedicated" loyal to him in the middle of the night on a scouting mission and not returned. We do have a clue about its timing, though:

 

Ever since Logain had left in the night. Where had he gone? Why had he taken Dónalo, Mezar and Welyn—three of the most powerful Dedicated loyal to him—along? And now there were those Aes Sedai camped outside, supposedly sent with authority from the Dragon to bond Asha'man.

 

Clearly, Logain left before the Rebel Aes Sedai came looking for Warders. In fact, since he didn't even let trusted men like Androl know to expect the Rebels, he clearly left before he could do so. Which means this event happened before Logain met Rand in CoT. Androl being raised to Dedicated obviously happened after that, but I think it happened indirectly via messenger to Taim, not by Logain himself coming.

 

I have serious doubts if Logain would have been stupid enough to go back to Taim's stronghold. What seems interesting to me is that Logain insisted on going on the recruiting missions in CoT. I have suspicions that he's been building up his own little group, consisting of recruits Taim knows nothing about at all. I think Mezar and Welyn were sent to keep an eye on Taim (since Logain knows nothing of the turnings). With them turned, I suspect the plan is to send them to bring Logain to the Black Tower. And I think Logain will come and be captured, but his secret gang of holdouts will come to the rescue, along with the Rebel Aes Sedai, as well as the loyalists inside the Tower. And lets not forget Naeff, who has likely made contact with the Rebels by now, and will soon be in the BT in disguise.

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It's quite clear from the description of the scene that there were no messengers involved in the raising of Androl to Dedicated.

Logain had gone to the Lord Dragon about it, and made the promotion happen, against Taim's express wishes....

Some said that Logain had forced Androl's promotion only as a dig against Taim's authority. But Logain had said that it was Androl's incredible Talent with gateways that had earned him the title of Dedicated.

-ToM, ch 46

 

And Logain has definitely been back to the BT since COT. He tells Rand of one specific visit in KOD, ch 18

Taim wasn't pleased at me taking so many men out of the Tower and not telling him where they were going. I thought he was going to rip up your order. He tried every trick to learn where you are. Oh, he burns to know that. His eyes were practically on fire. I wouldn't put it past him to have had me put to the question if I'd been fool enough to meet him without company.

It's also very clear from that scene that Taim would not listen to any messengers other than Logain himself.

He may have been to the BT a number of times since - we have little info to judge. he doesn't seem to be present when Pevara and the other Reds show up at the BT at the end of KoD. They run into Logain's people who take them to Taim which suggest that Logain is not around at the time.

 

The only real clue here is the fact that Rand raised Donalo, Mezar and Welyn to full Ashaman as of Kod, ch 27 and Androl refers to them as Dedicated at the time of Logain's last visit to the Black Tower. But as I said eralier when I brought this issue up, this very easily could be a mistake by BS which is a very real possibility. He has certainly made plenty of those in TOM and this would be a rather small one. If it's not a mistake then Logain is likely not under any duress himself but then why hasn't he contacted Rand in all that time? Rand has not been hard to find. Also, Rand thinks that Logain is at the Black Tower when he sends Naeff there. This further suggests that this is where he sent him when he saw Logain the last time.

 

On the other hand, it does seem strange that Logain's people (Androl and co) seem completely unaware of the fact the Semi was captured. They certainly never discuss it. The last contact with Rand they do discuss is when Emarin/Algrain saw Rand last which was before Semi's capture. I don't really see why Logain would keep it a secret from them if he visited the BT after that happened. Also, Rand would never agree to Elaida's followers bonding any Asha'man. He himself sent messengers to Egwene to offer Asha'man for bonding. It's quite clear that he doesn't know about Taim's decision to let Pevara and do this. If Logain has ever visited the Tower after that decision was made he didn't manage to communicate it to Rand for some reason.

Edited by herid
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I always interpreted Androl's thought about Logain's "scouting" mission to refer to the prep work for the meeting with Tuon.

 

"Taim wasn't pleased at me taking so many men out of the Tower and not telling him where they were going. I thought he was going to rip up your order."

 

-- KoD, News For The Dragon, p. 392

 

From that it's clear that after first finding Rand (Cot, Ornaments), Logain returned to the Black Tower on Rand's orders to get more firepower. Ignoring the shadowspawn attack on the manor, which was a surprise, the next thing Rand does is meet with Tuon (KoD, A Plain Wooden Box).

 

-- dwn

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Why does everybody assume they know what Rand knows? This whole series is riddled with secrets and behind the scenes plotting. For all we know, Rand may have complete knowledge of everything going on in the BT. If so, you would have to conclude he has a plan to correct it or he's using it to his advantage.

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I always interpreted Androl's thought about Logain's "scouting" mission to refer to the prep work for the meeting with Tuon.

 

interesting idea. might be true. my initial reaction was that he just didn't like the caliber of recruits Taim was bringing and wanted to get the right people to come to the BT.

 

Why does everybody assume they know what Rand knows? This whole series is riddled with secrets and behind the scenes plotting. For all we know, Rand may have complete knowledge of everything going on in the BT. If so, you would have to conclude he has a plan to correct it or he's using it to his advantage.

Rand explicitly says that he doesn't know what's going on in the BT when he sends Naeff there in TOM, ch 51 to find out what is happening there.

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I wonder when, or if, someone will figure out the weaves for invisibility. Elayne made a ter'angreal for it, and implied there are weaves for it.

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I wonder when, or if, someone will figure out the weaves for invisibility. Elayne made a ter'angreal for it, and implied there are weaves for it.

 

Those weaves are already known. It's called Inverted Light. Elayne made the ter'angreal to aid sisters who lacked the strength to make the weave themselves (though we additionally know there is a way to make the weave with very little strength as Moiraine does this in EotW. Rand also uses it to hide Egwene in LoC.

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I forgot about Rand hiding Egwene, but didn't realize it was actual invisibility. I don't remember Moiraine doing it, but I just started re-reading that book.

 

Someone needs to teach it to Logain or the good guys in the BT. Or maybe Logain already knows it, and Weilyn didn't come back alone. Do we know if Taim is in the BT at this time, or is he off at the Forsaken meeting? If he's not there, he wouldn't know Weilyn wasn't really turned. Perhaps, he's been watching and waiting for Taim to leave before he acts.

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Well, "actual invisibility" (as in, your body itself become invisible) doesn't exist, as far as I understand. Every time we have seen invisibility in the series, it was actually waves layered on top of someone/something to create an effet with the light that make it look like there is nothing behind. Kind of like an invisibility cloak, Harry Potter style, or a sort of screen. If you tie it off and then walk through it, you become visible again.

Edited by Rose
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Bringing back the Black Tower topic...

 

I don't think you need to take Androl's team viewpoint of the things as very determining the reality. I am not saying they are not right - Logain may be captured, and he may done the things in the way they think he have done them. But the truth easily may be a lot more different, as we often see to happen in the series. What I mean is... They assume Logain is captured based on the capturing of Wylin( cannot spell the name right, can't remember it from the books). But to capture one bird and to capture all birds is a whole different thing. If Taim's men attacked Logain and his fellows, it's sure there was battle between them. And in battles there are four tipes of men - alive, those who ran away, captured and dead. And this four categories aren't bound to who wins and who losses, you may be winner and the enemy could still capture your men and take them away. So it's safe to assume this may have happened to Wilyn, being captured by Taim's men in a battle betweet the two factions. Or just being captured while hiding somewhere, or doing something for Logain/Rand or both. Don't forget - Light and Shadow are in war now, no hidings, which in the realm of BT it would mean more open conflct between the two factions. Who in BT can say what happened 100 leagues away, in some unknown village or town, especially when BT is left to it's own by Rand, and Taim, the newest Forsaken is in charge.

 

The situation it's very messy. I don't feel confident in my understanding in BT plots, I mean we know many things about the place, the people in it and the schemes between the fractions, but so much is left untold that we can make only assumptions about it. I think we know too little for BT to be able to make anything more than wild guesses.

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