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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Logicaly either the DO is a tool or the Light can win for all time.


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Ages come and pass, and in at least 2 of them it is the DO which brings them to an end. In at least one Age, what we call the Third Age, it is the DO who keeps things from getting pleasant again(everytime the light started getting it's act together Ishy would come out of exile[40 on/40 off] to mess things up).

 

So while Time is reportedly designed to be a Wheel, at the very least(and perhaps always) the 2nd age would not end without the DO messing things up. Things would just keep getting increasingly awesome for all the people. Thus it is cleary the DO Who keeps things turning as intended

 

It is given in interviews that the DO could win, in which case who knows what will happen? But if the Light cannot also win then the wheel was clearly built to keep turning due to the DO's influence. Under such circumstance it could only be a device built with His never ending pushing in mind, Otherwise the 2nd Age would be unending and, even if it did end, the 3rd would be one of swift reconstruction.

 

Cleary, for things to go as they have been, the DO's influence is necessary. We know the DO can win for all time, but if the Light could not also win for all time then the wheel was built simply with the DOs pushing in mind, and for whatever amount of time it takes to DO to win He is just a tool pushing the Wheel along as it was intended to be pushed. No better than Sisyphus is He.

 

And of course, if the Light cannot win, the implication is the Wheel was built as a challenge for the DO. But in that case He is still a tool doing as He was intended to do.

 

oAnd, if course, if the Shadow cannot win, the DO is an eternal tool.

 

The only logical conclusion is either the Light can win and the Wheel is but a contest, or the Light cannot win and the DO is but a tool for however long it takes the Shadow to win(perhaps forever).

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Why create something as powerful as the Dark One if He has no use for it?

 

What do you mean by create? The DO is the dark balance to the Creator. It isn't one of his creations.

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Why create something as powerful as the Dark One if He has no use for it?

 

What do you mean by create? The DO is the dark balance to the Creator. It isn't one of his creations.

 

Well, we don't really know. The DO could be something the Creator created that went horribly wrong later (aka Satan the fallen angel). AFIAK we haven't really seen a detailed origion story for this universe the way we did for, say, Tolken's universe, so I don't think we really know one way or the other.

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Why create something as powerful as the Dark One if He has no use for it?

 

What do you mean by create? The DO is the dark balance to the Creator. It isn't one of his creations.

 

Well, we don't really know. The DO could be something the Creator created that went horribly wrong later (aka Satan the fallen angel). AFIAK we haven't really seen a detailed origion story for this universe the way we did for, say, Tolken's universe, so I don't think we really know one way or the other.

Actually, we do know - RJ was clear that Shai'tan was not a creation of the Creator.
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Interesting, spoken like a true white ajah. I love these debates on the nature of the universe in WoT, because there's never really an absolute conclusion. I can see where you're coming from; if the battle has been fought thousands of times, then that means the DO hasn't won yet, and logically, never will. There has been far too much emphasis on cyclical time (every chapter 1) and far to much evidence of past and future ages for there to be a 'final' final battle.

 

And yet...

 

There's plenty of argument against that. The dark one works to destroy the pattern, not balance it - is he natural or not? When Morridin plays Sha'rah, he muses about a 'complete' victory. If the Dark One can destroy the world, why has he never? Can the DO himself be destroyed? Rand and Fain think so.

 

It's one of the most interesting debates on the forums, and I'm happy to be here 3 months. I can't really pick a side, as there seems to be a counter argument to everything. I suppose we'll have to wait until January to see.

Edited by Danjaman
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Why create something as powerful as the Dark One if He has no use for it?

 

What do you mean by create? The DO is the dark balance to the Creator. It isn't one of his creations.

 

Well, we don't really know. The DO could be something the Creator created that went horribly wrong later (aka Satan the fallen angel). AFIAK we haven't really seen a detailed origion story for this universe the way we did for, say, Tolken's universe, so I don't think we really know one way or the other.

 

Yes we do, RJ has let us know many times. Here is one of the quotes...

INTERVIEW: Jun 26th, 1996

Compuserve Chat (Verbatim)

MARTIN REZNICK

How was the Dark One created, i.e. is he a fallen angel, an inherent part of the universe, etc.?

ROBERT JORDAN

I envision the Dark One as being the dark counterpart, the dark balance if you will, to the Creator...carrying on the theme, the ying yang, light dark, necessity of balance theme that has run through the books. It's somewhat Manichean I know, but I think it works.

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The best explanation I've seen for the nature of Randland is an analogy comparing Randland to a shield (channeling shield) over the DO. The Creator and the DO are ethereal beings. Think of the Creator as a channeler that has shielded the DO. The weave holding the DO is the weave that is the pattern of time in Randland. The people of Randland are the threads that make up that weave. As the people are healthy and holy and good the weave is strong and absolute, allowing the DO very little ability to fight against it. As the people waver and fear the weave becomes weaker. As the weave becomes weaker the DO has more power to search for the way to break free of that weave. The soft spot in the shield is Rand. The DO can only win (free himself) if he takes over that soft spot and uses it to break the shield/weave/Randland. IIRC the three possible outcomes from TG are Light wins, tie, or DO wins. The DO has never won but if he did win it means the end of Randland. Ties have happened and lead to destruction of everything but not the freedom of the DO so Randland continues. Light wins meaning the DO is sealed away and harmony continues until he builds back his strength to strike again. If I am wrong on these please let me know.

 

The end all be all to this point is that Randland can only exist if there is a DO for it to be the shield of, so if the DO was truely banished - say that the soft spot (Rand) pushed back so hard against the DO that it severed him from the source then Randland would cease to exist because you cannot shield someone who cannot channel.

 

This is definitely not a perfect theory and leads to a lot more debate. One of my main concerns is why would the DO not want his minions using balefire since it would destroy the weave holding him thus setting him free, but this can be answered as the DO is afraid that him being freed any other way than by doing it himself might cause some ill effect on him. This theory also leads me to wonder if the True Power the DO can grant to people is the OP of his and the Creator's world and that is why it is so powerful, but also leads the question of if he is shielded how can he grant that power to people. This may be answered that him granting poeple the TP (his OP) is just like when a Randland channeler feels around the shield trying to find a way to break it.

 

Anyways those are just crazy ideas but adds a little bit to your question.

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What do you mean by create? The DO is the dark balance to the Creator. It isn't one of his creations.

The man who builds a water-wheel doesn't create the stream, but he still uses it as a tool.

 

It is the DO who makes time a Wheel. Either time is meant to be an arrow and the DO keeps messing things up, or the DO is being used to keep turning the Wheel.

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What do you mean by create? The DO is the dark balance to the Creator. It isn't one of his creations.

The man who builds a water-wheel doesn't create the stream, but he still uses it as a tool.

 

It is the DO who makes time a Wheel. Either time is meant to be an arrow and the DO keeps messing things up, or the DO is being used to keep turning the Wheel.

 

Time is meant to be a Wheel, the Dark one is trying to make it be an arrow. (End everything)

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What do you mean by create? The DO is the dark balance to the Creator. It isn't one of his creations.

The man who builds a water-wheel doesn't create the stream, but he still uses it as a tool.

 

It is the DO who makes time a Wheel. Either time is meant to be an arrow and the DO keeps messing things up, or the DO is being used to keep turning the Wheel.

 

Time is meant to be a Wheel, the Dark one is trying to make it be an arrow. (End everything)

It is the DO who brings ages to their end, who is strongest at times of transition and change(dusk and dawn). If not for the DO how then does the 2nd age become the third? If time is meant to be a Wheel, then it was designed around the DO. With time intended as a Wheel the DO is then as much a tool as is the stream powering a waterwheel.

 

Without the DO time would be an arrow, whether due to design or lack of a force to turn the wheel.

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The first age turned into the second without the Dark One, the Fourth turns into the fifth without the Dark One, the Fifth into the Sixth, and Sixth into seventh, before by the time of the end of the first age, people have forgotten about the dark one entirely, as the second age comes around. EDIT: So, No, it's not only the Dark One that brings ages to their end.

 

That's not to say that the Light can't win, or the Dark One can't win, but irrespective of wether or not the Dark One wins or the Light Wins, that in itself wont change the fact that what *drives* the wheel of time, is the One Power, not the dark one.

Edited by Sammael Darksbane
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The first age turned into the second without the Dark One, the Fourth turns into the fifth without the Dark One, the Fifth into the Sixth, and Sixth into seventh, before by the time of the end of the first age, people have forgotten about the dark one entirely, as the second age comes around. EDIT: So, No, it's not only the Dark One that brings ages to their end.

How do you know the DO is only active in these 2 ages we've seen? We know nothing on that one way or the other.

 

More importantly, even if the wheel does spins back around to the 2nd Age without the DO's hand, what would keep it turning then if not for the DO? How would things move to the 3rd Age?

Edited by Zorlon
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Who says there has to be something extremely negative event/influence for the transition to a new age?

What else would transition the 2nd Age from it's ever upward trajectory?

 

What else would keep the Third Age from swiftly rebuilding and starting up the AoL anew? Indeed, how would the Third Age have it's shape at all without a great enemy lurking in the North?

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I don't think that works.

 

Your argument would require the 2nd Age to come crashing down in War on it's own, even though it took the Taint and the Madness of the Breaking, rather than merely the War of Power, to really finish off the AoL. And it would require the 3rd Age to fail to rebuild from the rubble of the 2nd even without an Outside influence keeping them from organizing and uniting, despite it being Ishy and the forces of the Shadow who did just that.

 

And as the third age seems built around a final battle with the Shadow, how could the Shadow not being necessary for that?

 

How do you see this working without the DO butting in? Do you suppose there was some other sort of Evil built into the world which is supposed to be making trouble? Like perhaps Mordeth is what would be stirring things up every so often if the DO hadn't been taking his place by trying to break the Wheel, and the Pattern has just been shunting Mordeth to the side to keep things running close to the way they're meant to just with the DO in Mordeth's role? That is to say the pattern, in an attempt to keep it's proper shape, forces events to unfold such that the DO's attempt to break the Wheel ends up placing him in a similar role to what Mordeth would be doing.

 

Might be something to that. Maybe the reason Mordeth hates the Shadow show much is it keeps stealing the spotlight from him.

Edited by Zorlon
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What do you mean by create? The DO is the dark balance to the Creator. It isn't one of his creations.

The man who builds a water-wheel doesn't create the stream, but he still uses it as a tool.

 

It is the DO who makes time a Wheel. Either time is meant to be an arrow and the DO keeps messing things up, or the DO is being used to keep turning the Wheel.

 

Time is meant to be a Wheel, the Dark one is trying to make it be an arrow. (End everything)

It is the DO who brings ages to their end, who is strongest at times of transition and change(dusk and dawn). If not for the DO how then does the 2nd age become the third? If time is meant to be a Wheel, then it was designed around the DO. With time intended as a Wheel the DO is then as much a tool as is the stream powering a waterwheel.

 

Without the DO time would be an arrow, whether due to design or lack of a force to turn the wheel.

We have seen Shai'tan bring one incarnation of one Age to an end. Not quite enough for sweeping claims that Shai'tan always ends the Second Age, let alone every Age, to have any real validity or evidential backing. We don't know what other incarnations of the AoL look like, so we cannot make accurate deductions as to what would be needed to bring them down. In other words, you're making stuff up.
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Economic collapse, decline in channeling ability, a power-resistant disease, rise of a faction of not-so-nice channelers.. The possibilities for the end of the second age are endless. just because the dark one happens to be the cause, doesnt mean he HAD to be the cause. As far as we know, all 5 other ages ended just fine without the dark one interfering.

 

And we do know that the AoL wasn't a perfect utopia, why else would they have binders?

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The major factors of each age repeat. The dark one being free is a major factor. We might as well claim the dark one is going to win because we have no proof of his involvement before the bore. Just because Ishy was his champion in tr past does not mean the DO was able to touch the world then. We cannot have it both ways people

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The Dark One is outside the pattern. Threads of the pattern cannot cause a major alteration the shape of an age themselves, because they are pert of it. The Dark One, being outside the pattern, CAN alter the pattern in a major way when allowed to touch it. This means the original shape of the pattern might not have been a cataclysmic ending of the second age leading into the third. However, the wheel still corrects its course in the long run.

 

If the wheel requires the DO, then the DO must be part of the pattern so he acts the same way every turning.

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