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Most Emotionally Jarring Moment?

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Oh most definately, but my views on the Aiel are not exactly high anyway, their culture is flawed and doomed to fail and die out, they're hypocrites, egotistical and xenophobic. They have reasons for some of this but I still dislike it. But there are not many cultures in WoT I do like, nor societies and institutions. Individuals yes, we are shown some exceptional characters but the groups as a whole seem flawed and hopelessly doomed.

 

However almost all of that is intended, because they all need a great deal more balance than they have right now to be workable.

 

I am far too harsh though I guess... and tend to think less than favourably about many of the groups haha

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However almost all of that is intended, because they all need a great deal more balance than they have right now to be workable.

 

 

In regards to this, you are correct. We are meant to - to a degree - notice the flaws in society. We are supposed to think this. Perhaps you are a bit harsh, but the general concept is correct. We are supposed to see that the Shadow has slowly twisted many of the societies and we are supposed to notice the general degradation of society over 3000 years.

 

Society was nearly rebuilt, but the Trolloc Wars destroyed it. With Hawkwing's rise, society was on it's way to recovery again, but Ishamael twisted it and once again, society was destroyed after Ishamael's meddlings and after Hawkwing's death. We know that the Seanchan society has been influenced and twisted by Ishamael also.

 

So yeah, in the current time of the books, society is a big mess due to the Shadow's meddling.

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However almost all of that is intended, because they all need a great deal more balance than they have right now to be workable.

 

 

In regards to this, you are correct. We are meant to - to a degree - notice the flaws in society. We are supposed to think this. Perhaps you are a bit harsh, but the general concept is correct. We are supposed to see that the Shadow has slowly twisted many of the societies and we are supposed to notice the general degradation of society over 3000 years.

 

Society was nearly rebuilt, but the Trolloc Wars destroyed it. With Hawkwing's rise, society was on it's way to recovery again, but Ishamael twisted it and once again, society was destroyed after Ishamael's meddlings and after Hawkwing's death. We know that the Seanchan society has been influenced and twisted by Ishamael also.

 

So yeah, in the current time of the books, society is a big mess due to the Shadow's meddling.

 

Saidins cleansing will change so much its unreal, 3000 years of fear and distrust will take generations to overcome, but once it does women might start to respect the wisdom of men a bit more. Between that and the shadow, it leads to societies where the women try to tell the men whats best for them and the men do their best to ignore them, rather than jointly working out whats best for everyone. Hopefully the female groups decide to try a bit less bullying though, be it womens circles, wise ones or aes sedai. because all that does is cause most men to become stubborn and surley. Yin and Yang is out of balance.

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Oh most definately, but my views on the Aiel are not exactly high anyway, their culture is flawed and doomed to fail and die out, they're hypocrites, egotistical and xenophobic. They have reasons for some of this but I still dislike it. But there are not many cultures in WoT I do like, nor societies and institutions. Individuals yes, we are shown some exceptional characters but the groups as a whole seem flawed and hopelessly doomed.

 

However almost all of that is intended, because they all need a great deal more balance than they have right now to be workable.

 

I am far too harsh though I guess... and tend to think less than favourably about many of the groups haha

Yeah, personally i really dislike the Aiel society. Little sanctity of life, stupidly stubborn, belief that all must follow their code of honor (except, ironically, many of those who try to follow their code of honor), hatred of all Carihien because of one man's actions. To be honest, the only reason i cared much about their destruction at the hands of the Seachan is because the remaining Aiel are made to be little more than savages and, well, its the Seachan.

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I believe the Aiel got what they deserved in the future that was shown. I was against it because all of the other nations were consumed by the Seanchan and the Black and White Towers and all the other channelling groups were enslaved.

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However almost all of that is intended, because they all need a great deal more balance than they have right now to be workable.

 

 

In regards to this, you are correct. We are meant to - to a degree - notice the flaws in society. We are supposed to think this. Perhaps you are a bit harsh, but the general concept is correct. We are supposed to see that the Shadow has slowly twisted many of the societies and we are supposed to notice the general degradation of society over 3000 years.

 

Society was nearly rebuilt, but the Trolloc Wars destroyed it. With Hawkwing's rise, society was on it's way to recovery again, but Ishamael twisted it and once again, society was destroyed after Ishamael's meddlings and after Hawkwing's death. We know that the Seanchan society has been influenced and twisted by Ishamael also.

 

So yeah, in the current time of the books, society is a big mess due to the Shadow's meddling.

 

I have really been enjoying that dynamic of the series as I reread it this time.

 

I've never cared much for the Seanchan. I think this is the first reread where I finally saw some promise in the idea of Seanchan outriggers. I still don't care much for the culture itself, but it would be interesting to see how they came to live in Seanchan, and what life was like for them. It seems as though the chaotic effects that Ishy kept inflicting upon Randland to set them back was spared the Seanchan. At least in the way it effected their developement. He almost seems to have been molding them to be the perfect late game weapon against Randland. Though because of this, their society outside of order and internal unity may have been twisted most of all. With the damane, corrupted prophecies, whatever the hell is going on with the Empress's throne, etc.

 

 

Also, I seem to be being quoted for something I didn't say :tongue:

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The same with Cadsuane thinking on how being a legend sometimes gives her an aura that passes simple things (seeing behind her through using a shiny metal at the right angle) as awe-inspiring actions.

 

I think I'd like to see Cadsuane meet with Granny Weatherwax, with her bottles of suckrose-and-aqua medicine for bad backs..

 

Somehow I think those two would get along wonderfully, though I do pity everyone else, since they would almost certainly reinforce eachother's beliefs about other people.

 

How true!! This was the bit I was reminded of:

 

Granny Weatherwax's door opened by itself.

 

Jarge Weaver hesitated. Of course, she were a witch. People'd told him this sort of thing happened.

 

He didn't like it. But he didn't like his back, eitheer, especially when his back didn't like him. It came to something when your vertebrae ganged up on you.

 

He eased himself forward, grimacing, balancing himself on two sticks.

 

The witch was sitting in a rocking chair, facing away from the door.

 

Jarge hesitated.

 

"Come on in, Jarge Weaver," said Granny Weatherwax, "and let me give you something for that back of yours."

 

(there follows a discussion involving 'medicine' (suckrose and aqua) and rituals (put a plank of 20-year old pine in the bed so the knots from his back end up in the pine) and then she shows him out, 'accidentally' kneeing him in the back in the process..) Then:

 

Granny watched him go, shaking her head.

 

People were so blind, she reflected. They preferred to belive in gibberish rather than chiropracty.

 

Of course, it was just as well that this was so. She'd much rather they went 'oo' when she seemed to know who was approaching her cottage rather than work out that it conveniently overlooked a bend in the track, and as for the door-latch and the trick with the length of black thread..

 

(Not that she sat looking out of the window. She'd been watching the fire when she picked up the approach of Jarge Weaver. But that wasn't the point.)

 

Y'know, I think this was where Cadsuane was hiding all those years.. :biggrin:

 

Ahem. /OT

Edited by FarShainMael

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How do they know he wasn't? She's acting in such a way that, if i didn't have the correct context, i would say that Rand is forcing himself on her.

 

No, she wouldn't react like that, and they know that.

 

She was a Maiden of the Spear. If someone tried to do that to her, she would stab them. If she couldn't, then her friends would. She wouldn't feel ashamed or be afraid to ask for help; he would be the one with toh, not her.

 

This isn't a culture where a woman taken advantage of is going to be made to feel like she did something wrong. Especally a maiden of the spear or a wise one would never react like that.

 

I can understand you seeing her seeming embarassed and uncomfortable and wonder why they didn't wonder about that possibility, but I just don't think that's how someone from her culture would respond, or how the wise ones would expect her to respond.

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No, she wouldn't react like that, and they know that.

Do they? Considering the fact that a situation where Rand is forcing himself on her is exactly what Aveindha is trying to avoid, it seems pretty poor management.

 

She was a Maiden of the Spear. If someone tried to do that to her, she would stab them.

Even if she thought it was right for her to stab the Car'caran, could she? Rand is not exactly easy fodder. And remember, not all forcing is physical. Rand could easily be emotionally pulling Aveindha around, seeing as she has to be there for some reason.

 

If she couldn't, then her friends would.

She goes to Egwene multiple times. What other friend could help her?

 

She wouldn't feel ashamed or be afraid to ask for help; he would be the one with toh, not her.

She would definitely feel ashamed, if for no reason other than the fact that she failed her duty to the Wise Ones. As the Wise Ones are being oh so receptive of her pleas for help, it seems doubtful that she would go to them.

 

This isn't a culture where a woman taken advantage of is going to be made to feel like she did something wrong.

Neither is ours. Doesn't stop it from happening all the time to men and women from our culture.

 

Especally a maiden of the spear or a wise one would never react like that.

Really? I see the fact that they are expected to take care of themselves to only increase the shame of coming out. Look at how male rape victims are treated in our culture.

 

I can understand you seeing her seeming embarassed and uncomfortable and wonder why they didn't wonder about that possibility, but I just don't think that's how someone from her culture would respond, or how the wise ones would expect her to respond.

But i'm pretty sure that this is exactly how Aveindha would respond.

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Not to be a party pooper, but a moment from aMoL prologue (which all I'm gonna say). Besides that, every time I read VoG and Rand screaming at the sky with the voice of a king...still makes me tear up a bit...

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It was the other voices Perrin wished he could not hear.

"Where is Kenley?" Mistress Ahan was a handsome woman, with streaks of white in her nearly black braid, but she wore a fear-filled frown as she scanned faced and saw eyes flinch from hers. "Where's my Kenley?"

"Bili!" old Hu al'Dai called uncertainly. "Has anyone seen Bili al'Dai?"

". . . Hu . . . !"

". . . Jared . . .!"

". . . Tim . . . !"

". . . Colly . . . !"

In front of the inn, Perrin fell out of the saddle in his need to escape those names, not even seeing whose hands caught him. "Get me inside!" he grated. "Inside!"

". . . Teven . . . !"

". . . Haral . . . !"

". . . Had . . . !"

The door cut off the heart-lost wails, and the cries of Dael al'Taron's mother for someone to tell her where her son was.

+1 the battle itself when they are ambushed and then coming back to Emond's field to report on it. The way he wrote that, I could see my own friends growing up falling -and feel what it would be like to abandon them. The complaints about Perrin going to Emo never seem to understand that he has been through the ringer more than anyone except Rand. Not only did he lose his family, but he lead his good friends to their death against the advice of the Aiel. Not even Rand had to experience such a visceral failure-in this life.

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It was the other voices Perrin wished he could not hear.

"Where is Kenley?" Mistress Ahan was a handsome woman, with streaks of white in her nearly black braid, but she wore a fear-filled frown as she scanned faced and saw eyes flinch from hers. "Where's my Kenley?"

"Bili!" old Hu al'Dai called uncertainly. "Has anyone seen Bili al'Dai?"

". . . Hu . . . !"

". . . Jared . . .!"

". . . Tim . . . !"

". . . Colly . . . !"

In front of the inn, Perrin fell out of the saddle in his need to escape those names, not even seeing whose hands caught him. "Get me inside!" he grated. "Inside!"

". . . Teven . . . !"

". . . Haral . . . !"

". . . Had . . . !"

The door cut off the heart-lost wails, and the cries of Dael al'Taron's mother for someone to tell her where her son was.

+1 the battle itself when they are ambushed and then coming back to Emond's field to report on it. The way he wrote that, I could see my own friends growing up falling -and feel what it would be like to abandon them. The complaints about Perrin going to Emo never seem to understand that he has been through the ringer more than anyone except Rand. Not only did he lose his family, but he lead his good friends to their death against the advice of the Aiel. Not even Rand had to experience such a visceral failure-in this life.

it wasn't against the Aiels advice, he acted according to their advice. It was only Luc that messed things up

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Ok just from memory as I don't have my books to hand:

Rand trying to heal the dead girl in the stone of tear,

Faile coming with reinforcements when all looks lost for the Two Rivers folk,

Moraine sacrificing herself because Rand cannot kill Lanfear,

Cup of sleep (chilled me to the bone)

Rand being ambivalent when he lost his hand

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I'm in the middle of my pre-AMoL re-read, currently in the middle of KoD, and I'm finding some moments in this book that are striking me more than they did in the past. Most have been mentioned in the post already, but I wanted to say that I found them noteworthy because they affected me more in what I believe is my 4th full read-through than they had previously.

 

1. Nynaeve with Aldragoran. When she said her full name, I was instantly choked up.

2. The Amayar. It still didn't have the impact on me that I think RJ intended, mostly because we've never been given reason to care about them, but it definitely hit me more in this re-read than before.

3. The WT novices standing for Egwene when she walks into the dining room on her 9th day of captivity. I literally just read this, and I was immediately emotional. It didn't affect me that way before. Maybe I'm just getting old.

 

Thoughts on the biggies:

1. I couldn't believe enlightened Rand embracing Tam and crying wasn't at the top of everyone's list. We've been waiting for 20 years for him to truly become the Dragon - I felt like that was the moment when it was confirmed for us that he finally was truly beyond all the crap that was holding him back.

2. For Dumai's Wells, there were 3 specific lines that encapsulate it for me. 2 have been mentioned, but I don't think I've seen the 3rd. "They've caged Shadowkiller", "I'm Free" after crushing the soft points in fists of spirit and destroying the box, and "Asha'man, kill". All three of those statements still give me chills thinking about them to this day.

3. I agree with everyone's love of the prologue to TEoTW. I find it amazing that just a snippet of that time and of LTT and Ishamael in their prime grips us as it does. I hate to say it, but I would totally be excited about an AoL prequel series for exactly that reason.

4. Algarin's Manor and Maradon were awesome, but I really wanted more of both. I live for moments like these in these books, and I always feel like they're over too soon. If I have to read 2 pages describing the cut of someone's clothes, or the texture of a street, I should darn well get 20+ pages of the epic battles to balance it out! :)

5. The forging of Perrin's hammer is right up there with Dumai's Wells for me - incredible.

6. The Last That Could Be Done. I literally had to put the book down and collect myself after that chapter. If I had to pick one thing that shook me the most, it would have been this.

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I believe the Aiel got what they deserved in the future that was shown. I was against it because all of the other nations were consumed by the Seanchan and the Black and White Towers and all the other channelling groups were enslaved.

 

What? The only manipulated other nations into the war after the White Tower and Black Tower had been destroyed. They said that men still fought but they were doing it commando style and weren't working with anyone else.

 

For me, the Aiel glass columns would have to be it, both times through, probably more Avi's trip because though their culture has flaws it is my favourite one in the books.

 

Rand and Min being kidnapped....

 

But taking the cake, though it was exciting, not disturbing so much is Rand channeling the TP to escape Semi...wow, did not see that coming at all.

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^From memory the last viewing Avi had (1st chronologically) they decided they go to war, in the 2nd chronologically they manipulate Andor into the war and the pact of the griffin with it, WT and BT fall sometime after this.

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Not really that plot dependent but one of my most emotional was when Mat, Elayne, Nynavae etc find the place where the Bowl of the Winds is kept and walk into an ambush. Nearly all of Mat's men die, including Nalesean who was grumbling all the way there about staying in bed who Mat laments on "I should've let Nalesean stay in bed", Vanin is badly hurt along with Elayne and some of the kin are dead.

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Aviendha's vision of the future of the Aiel and the Seanchan.

 

THIS.

 

What was once a proud and honorable people dies and becomes a ragged fragment of what they once were, begging for scraps, and unable to shed a tear for a dead infant.

 

Also:

 

Whoever reads this, if any remain to read it, weep for us who have no more tears.
Edited by Xader

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I gotta say - there are a lot of votes for "Cup of Sleep", and I get it, but it just didn't do that much for me. Sure, it's kind of sad, but I wasn't at all shocked when I first read that scene. I had basically been waiting for something of the sort. Taim had vaguely mentioned people going mad during training, but it was inevitable that we would see one dealt with on-screen. Before the cleansing, signing up to be Asha'man was basically volunteering to go mad. They knew it and Rand knew it too.

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Not a most jarring moment; but I feel sad and frustrated whenever I read the Rand - Aviendha split in LoC. RJ wrote it so well. I can just feel the pain each felt at the forced breakup. Rand forces himself not to say anything to Aviendha; and she takes a step towards him when he turns his back, then shuts her eyes and braces herself.

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Ok - let me put in two cents here...and beat the dead horse again...

 

Wasn't Aviendha supposed to hook up with Rand? Isn't that what the Wise Ones intended, but never actually admitted?

 

I dont recall when it was or which old lady it was, but she did say that Avi was "more successful than we thought" or something to that effect...

 

Anyway - from FoH to WH I was waiting for Rand to hook up with Avi again.

 

One part i forgot about - was in salidar when Avi gives herself up to Elayne for boinking Rand...

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Ok - let me put in two cents here...and beat the dead horse again...

 

Wasn't Aviendha supposed to hook up with Rand? Isn't that what the Wise Ones intended, but never actually admitted?

 

I dont recall when it was or which old lady it was, but she did say that Avi was "more successful than we thought" or something to that effect...

 

Anyway - from FoH to WH I was waiting for Rand to hook up with Avi again.

 

One part i forgot about - was in salidar when Avi gives herself up to Elayne for boinking Rand...

 

 

- Aviendha's destiny as seen in the Rhuidean circles ter'angreal was that she would fall in love with Rand. 

- She fell in love with him and resisted till "The Far Snows" 

- Aviendha's felt that she had toh to Elayne because she promised Egwene to look after Rand for Elayne. 

- Rand was traumatized by seeing Aviendha's dead face during the raid on Rahvin in Caemlyn; and so he kept avoiding her till she went to Salidar. 

- Both Rand and Aviendha loved each other (as evidenced in A Lily in Winter). But between Rand's trauma and Aviendha's toh, both fought themselves to "freeze" their relationship and separate. 

 

Amys was the one that commented on Aviendha's success with Rand. Her role was to remind Rand of his blood. He was using the Aiel as a tool. He knew that he was sending them to a mass slaughter; and that only a remnant of a remnant would survive. Yet he had no feelings for them. That was the Wise Ones purpose. But Aviendha didn't stay close to him and save his life because of that. She loved him. 

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I just read the prologue of WH.

 

When Elaine and Avi become first sisters. Not a bad emotion, just strong emotions in that scene.

100% agree.

 

The lyrics to 'The Wind that Shakes the Willow' as well as "Life is a Dream" when the aiel commemerate their fallen after Dumais Wells.

 

When the Wave Mistesses find out about the Amayar.

 

and thats all I can think of right now

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