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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

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Semi was defintely scarificed, I think Moridin mused ?or maybe even Semi) on giving up on of your spires to further your own gameplan. I think it was in the chapter she was toturing that Aes Sedai and her warder.

 

So ta'maral'ailen said, upthread; and I don't deny that sounds very much like a foreshadowing. But I remain unconvinced. Why would the DO prefer to tempt Rand, rather than get him to SG, Turn him, and have done? Vassili gave one possibility, but I don't think that works per the quote from RJ. What other advantage would there be?

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Again, why? If Semi had got Rand to SG and he had been turned, the DO would then have all the dependency he needed and grant Rand use of the TP. Why would he make things so complicated - and uncertain?

 

 

Im not so sure that a 13x13 would work quite the same on Rand. He has 2 personalities in his head and he is linked to a 3rd. That might have no bearing, but it might give it oddities.

 

Overall though, I think its more that he wants a willing champion in Rand. He wants/needs to turn the Lights greatest champion into the Light's greatest doom. Corrupting him is one thing, but the DO is all about hate and destruction. He obviously hates the creator, so just merely turning him forcibly might not have the same sense of beating the creator at Sha'rah.

 

Not to mention it might well prevent his ultimate victory. Afterall from all that has been said the Dragon HAS gone over to the dark in previous ages. But it has to be done a certain way for a complete victory.

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That would make sense, certainly. Co-opting Rand as a willing ally would indeed be a coup for the Dark One. So he throws away the chamce of a swift and certain victory for an opportunity essentially to gloat over his opponent.. and the funny thing is, that is exactly what Semi did!

 

(but i still hope rand getting the tp was an accident... :wink: )

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It is widely speculated that the DO cannot truely "win" in the sense he wants to unless the Dragon, of his own free will, chooses to go over to him. Allowing Rand to Balefire Semi got him one step closer to that goal. Taking Rand to Shayol Ghul would not have. Even if Rand is 13x13ed, he will no longer be acting of his own free will.

 

We know for certain the CoL has gone over to the shadow. The result in these instances have been a draw. Are you speculating that every time that's happend he's been forcibly turned? That is a huge stretch....

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Do we know for a fact the CoL has turned to the shadow in previous lives? Ishammael said so, but Ishy said many things that were just meant to get in Rand's head. But if he has, why couldn't it have been exclusively because of the 13x13 trick? The DO has all of time to try and win. Even if he only 13x13ed Rand once in a thousand turnings of the wheel, that could add up to millions of times.

 

I kind of envision the DO's plight being like the movie Groundhog Day. Because time repeats itself, at least in the essential parts, the DO learns a little bit more every turn. He's tried killing Rand, but that just leads to a draw and a long wait till he is reborn. He's tried smothering the world in trollocs, but even if he overwhelms the forces of the Light, without Rand's soul it just means another draw. He's gotten smarter. He knows that the key to victory is not in great battles, but in the little things, anything, that brings Rand one step closer to giving in. Much of the DO's actions, like sending two armies of trollocs to the Stone of Tear under different commands, make no tactical sense. But thats only because the DO is not trying to win on the field of battle, hes trying to win the fight for Rand's soul. What seems pointless on the surface may make sense to someone who has fought the same fight a billion times and seen it unfold in a billion different ways.

 

If this isn't the case, why not just kill Rand? Or turn him? A few well chosen words in Semi's ear from Shaidar Haran, and she wouldn't have dallied around and gotten herself killed. And I don't think the DO was too stupid to see how Semi's attack was going to unfold, even if he had never seen a similar scenario play out in a previous third age. Semihrange and all of the Forsaken save Elan are predictable. They can't think beyond greed and revenge. Thats why the DO chose them: he doesnt need to waste time wondering what they will do next. The only thing that fits the facts is that Rand is special. He is the key to victory for the Light. He is also the key to victory for the Shadow. His job is to decide.

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So far as we've seen, the only people who can (could) use both the OP and the TP are (were) Graendal, Moridin, and Rand.

 

I'm trying to remember. Was there ever a mention of using both the TP and the OP simultaneously? Or are they mutually exclusive? The only thing I can recall is the scene in Shadar Logoth where Rand was using saidin-balefire next to Moridin using TP-balefire, the streams crossed, and they both got whacked. At the time I thought it was because of a OP/TP clash, but now I'm wondering if it wasn't just a balefire-balefire clash.

 

Rand mentions trying something really dangerous, something which may not be possible, which draws on the ideas he has from living as Lews Therin. I can imagine a scenario wherein Rand links with Moraine and Nynaeve to use both saidin and saidar, puts Callandor into play, then grabs the TP at the same time to wield them all together against the Dark One's minions. If you thought you saw a powerful uber-Rand together before, you ain't seen nuttin yet.

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Do we know for a fact the CoL has turned to the shadow in previous lives? Ishammael said so, but Ishy said many things that were just meant to get in Rand's head. But if he has, why couldn't it have been exclusively because of the 13x13 trick? The DO has all of time to try and win. Even if he only 13x13ed Rand once in a thousand turnings of the wheel, that could add up to millions of times.

 

RJ at COT signing: "Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw."

 

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Do we know for a fact the CoL has turned to the shadow in previous lives? Ishammael said so, but Ishy said many things that were just meant to get in Rand's head. But if he has, why couldn't it have been exclusively because of the 13x13 trick? The DO has all of time to try and win. Even if he only 13x13ed Rand once in a thousand turnings of the wheel, that could add up to millions of times.

 

RJ at COT signing: "Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw."

 

Not only that but RJ also said Ishy was not lying in a specific instance in which he was referring to Rand. The Dragon Soul is the CoL and per Brandon is often spun out together with Ishy's soul a la Birgitte & Gaidal.

Edited by Suttree
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Now that's interesting. Why would the Wheel spin out a counter-agent to the CoL? Or is he not really a counter-agent at all?

Balance

 

But what, then, balances the DO?

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Do we know for a fact the CoL has turned to the shadow in previous lives? Ishammael said so, but Ishy said many things that were just meant to get in Rand's head. But if he has, why couldn't it have been exclusively because of the 13x13 trick? The DO has all of time to try and win. Even if he only 13x13ed Rand once in a thousand turnings of the wheel, that could add up to millions of times.

 

RJ at COT signing: "Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw."

 

For me, this does not make sense. If Rand had gone over to the Shadow he would have certainly used the Choden Kal to destroy the world and end the Pattern. Game over.

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Do we know for a fact the CoL has turned to the shadow in previous lives? Ishammael said so, but Ishy said many things that were just meant to get in Rand's head. But if he has, why couldn't it have been exclusively because of the 13x13 trick? The DO has all of time to try and win. Even if he only 13x13ed Rand once in a thousand turnings of the wheel, that could add up to millions of times.

 

RJ at COT signing: "Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw."

 

For me, this does not make sense. If Rand had gone over to the Shadow he would have certainly used the Choden Kal to destroy the world and end the Pattern. Game over.

 

He didn't go over to the dark though; that was the point of VoG. He was on the cusp of destroying the world and had an epiphany and came back to the good side of the Light.

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Now that's interesting. Why would the Wheel spin out a counter-agent to the CoL? Or is he not really a counter-agent at all?

Balance

 

But that would suggest that the CoL, on his own and with no counter-agent, is a bad thing for the Wheel. I don't see how that could be.

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This was after tGS came out but before TOM. I don't see anything of relevance in TOM though so I think it's something yet to happen. What can it be? Some kind of possession as the original poster suggested? something else? Shaidar Haran has some interesting powers (like shielding) over those sworn to the Shadow. perhaps he can now do it to Rand? I can't really think of anything else at the moment. But LTT said that TP was "death and betrayal" and it feels like a foreshadowing to me.

It feels like the weekness in his dreams' shields that lead him to watch Cyndane suffering could be a consequence of that TP channeling. My (vague) idea is that there will be a moment when he'll want to save/help/whatever Cyndane and he'll know the only way is the TP.
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Now that's interesting. Why would the Wheel spin out a counter-agent to the CoL? Or is he not really a counter-agent at all?

Balance

 

But that would suggest that the CoL, on his own and with no counter-agent, is a bad thing for the Wheel. I don't see how that could be.

 

Sorry to reply to my own post, but I had a thought about this.. What if the DO has somehow managed to insert some of Its own threads into the Pattern? Perhaps the Ishamael-soul is one of those thread? And the Wheel responds by spinning them out together, so that the Dragon-soul can be the counter-agent to the Ishy-soul.

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Now that's interesting. Why would the Wheel spin out a counter-agent to the CoL? Or is he not really a counter-agent at all?

Balance

 

But that would suggest that the CoL, on his own and with no counter-agent, is a bad thing for the Wheel. I don't see how that could be.

 

You're just thinking of this in a somewhat incorrect way. The Pattern is not what fights the DO. The Creator fights the DO; the Pattern is merely the gameboard on which they battle. The Pattern is a neutral entity so it will not favor the Light or the Dark.

 

The biggest beef I have with the whole thing is that the DO is able to play a direct role in the outcome while the Creator does not. I suppose this is akin to the Biblical philosophy ... but, if this series IS a Biblical analogy and Rand is Jesus and the DO is Lucifer then the DO was something created by the Creator and is something that Rand has the ability to eradicate.

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The biggest beef I have with the whole thing is that the DO is able to play a direct role in the outcome while the Creator does not. I suppose this is akin to the Biblical philosophy ... but, if this series IS a Biblical analogy and Rand is Jesus and the DO is Lucifer then the DO was something created by the Creator and is something that Rand has the ability to eradicate.

 

We know for fact the DO was not made by the Creator. Further Jesus is only one small part of what went into Rand.

Edited by Suttree
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Now that's interesting. Why would the Wheel spin out a counter-agent to the CoL? Or is he not really a counter-agent at all?

Balance

 

But that would suggest that the CoL, on his own and with no counter-agent, is a bad thing for the Wheel. I don't see how that could be.

The Creator represents Order and the DO represents Chaos (entropy). The Wheel is neutral and represents balance. There cannot be light without darkness, order without disorder, female without male, etc. The Wheel strives to maintain a healthy balance. I can envisage ages where the DO is improsoned, but Ishy's soul is spun out to strive against the CoL in a non-dragon age. Perhaps the CoL becomes the head of an organisation similar to the WC's that tries to control the world. Perhaps the wheel strives against the CoL because the pendulum has swung the other way. Balance must be maintained. Or maybe I am talking out of my backside.

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Now that's interesting. Why would the Wheel spin out a counter-agent to the CoL? Or is he not really a counter-agent at all?

Balance

 

But that would suggest that the CoL, on his own and with no counter-agent, is a bad thing for the Wheel. I don't see how that could be.

 

You're just thinking of this in a somewhat incorrect way. The Pattern is not what fights the DO. The Creator fights the DO; the Pattern is merely the gameboard on which they battle. The Pattern is a neutral entity so it will not favor the Light or the Dark.

 

But we do know that the Wheel has corrective mechanisms, such as ta'veren. Why does it need to correct itself? What is happening that needs correction, if not the action of the DO?

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Do we know for a fact the CoL has turned to the shadow in previous lives? Ishammael said so, but Ishy said many things that were just meant to get in Rand's head. But if he has, why couldn't it have been exclusively because of the 13x13 trick? The DO has all of time to try and win. Even if he only 13x13ed Rand once in a thousand turnings of the wheel, that could add up to millions of times.

 

I kind of envision the DO's plight being like the movie Groundhog Day. Because time repeats itself, at least in the essential parts, the DO learns a little bit more every turn. He's tried killing Rand, but that just leads to a draw and a long wait till he is reborn. He's tried smothering the world in trollocs, but even if he overwhelms the forces of the Light, without Rand's soul it just means another draw. He's gotten smarter. He knows that the key to victory is not in great battles, but in the little things, anything, that brings Rand one step closer to giving in. Much of the DO's actions, like sending two armies of trollocs to the Stone of Tear under different commands, make no tactical sense. But thats only because the DO is not trying to win on the field of battle, hes trying to win the fight for Rand's soul. What seems pointless on the surface may make sense to someone who has fought the same fight a billion times and seen it unfold in a billion different ways.

 

If this isn't the case, why not just kill Rand? Or turn him? A few well chosen words in Semi's ear from Shaidar Haran, and she wouldn't have dallied around and gotten herself killed. And I don't think the DO was too stupid to see how Semi's attack was going to unfold, even if he had never seen a similar scenario play out in a previous third age. Semihrange and all of the Forsaken save Elan are predictable. They can't think beyond greed and revenge. Thats why the DO chose them: he doesnt need to waste time wondering what they will do next. The only thing that fits the facts is that Rand is special. He is the key to victory for the Light. He is also the key to victory for the Shadow. His job is to decide.

 

Ishamael/Moridin repeatedly told Rand that they had fought "this battle" countless times. Sometimes Rand/Lews Therin turned to the shadow, was turned or fought the shadow. Despite it all of that, the Wheel has turned again. All possible combinations have already been visited, except breaking the Wheel, which is what the DO is trying to do. The only way to break the cycle is to have Moridin or Rand removed from being "spun" out again by the Wheel. Believe Rand will do this by pushing back the DO and healing the Bore behind him.

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Do we know for a fact the CoL has turned to the shadow in previous lives? Ishammael said so, but Ishy said many things that were just meant to get in Rand's head. But if he has, why couldn't it have been exclusively because of the 13x13 trick? The DO has all of time to try and win. Even if he only 13x13ed Rand once in a thousand turnings of the wheel, that could add up to millions of times.

 

I kind of envision the DO's plight being like the movie Groundhog Day. Because time repeats itself, at least in the essential parts, the DO learns a little bit more every turn. He's tried killing Rand, but that just leads to a draw and a long wait till he is reborn. He's tried smothering the world in trollocs, but even if he overwhelms the forces of the Light, without Rand's soul it just means another draw. He's gotten smarter. He knows that the key to victory is not in great battles, but in the little things, anything, that brings Rand one step closer to giving in. Much of the DO's actions, like sending two armies of trollocs to the Stone of Tear under different commands, make no tactical sense. But thats only because the DO is not trying to win on the field of battle, hes trying to win the fight for Rand's soul. What seems pointless on the surface may make sense to someone who has fought the same fight a billion times and seen it unfold in a billion different ways.

 

If this isn't the case, why not just kill Rand? Or turn him? A few well chosen words in Semi's ear from Shaidar Haran, and she wouldn't have dallied around and gotten herself killed. And I don't think the DO was too stupid to see how Semi's attack was going to unfold, even if he had never seen a similar scenario play out in a previous third age. Semihrange and all of the Forsaken save Elan are predictable. They can't think beyond greed and revenge. Thats why the DO chose them: he doesnt need to waste time wondering what they will do next. The only thing that fits the facts is that Rand is special. He is the key to victory for the Light. He is also the key to victory for the Shadow. His job is to decide.

 

Ishamael/Moridin repeatedly told Rand that they had fought "this battle" countless times. Sometimes Rand/Lews Therin turned to the shadow, was turned or fought the shadow. Despite it all of that, the Wheel has turned again. All possible combinations have already been visited, except breaking the Wheel, which is what the DO is trying to do. The only way to break the cycle is to have Moridin or Rand removed from being "spun" out again by the Wheel. Believe Rand will do this by pushing back the DO and healing the Bore behind him.

 

I think this is what happens every revolution. That the CoL takes all of the True Power into himself, corrupting him. People have said that the taint on saidin was like compulsion. So the reason Rand has so much of that dark compulsion on his mind could be because he is using so much of saidin so freely, or because he's actually touched the True Power. That would also show why it's so much more addictive than the One Power. Because it actually puts a compulsion onto the users mind to use it more and more.

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