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JakeBarnes

True Power

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If Moridin (or anyone) were allowed to - and chose to - draw in vast amounts of the True Power, would the Dark One be able to take control of their body?

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No, there is no evidence of that. The only character allowed to do that is Moridin (use the True Power in large amounts), and the books talk about the True Power's addictive nature. Moridin already showed the saa across his eyes, the signs of addiction, back in Path of Daggers.

 

To leap from there to possession? There's no foundation for it.

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Here is a break down of how it works...

 

QUESTION

I think it was the chapter when Moridin was observing with a cloak of fancloth. His vision was blurred by a rain of black spots.

QUESTION

 

But it didn't affect his vision.

ROBERT JORDAN

 

It didn't affect his vision. You're aware of it, but it's not like there is blackness between you, because it gets thicker and thicker and thicker and you get to a point where if you've used it long enough you get a steady stream even if you're not connected. And you are then on the road, at that point, inevitably, to becoming what Ishamael was. Because these are stigmata, if you will. These saa are stigmata caused by a linkage to the Dark One. And eventually the effect is to become all fire eyes. You no longer have eyes visible to other people. If they're looking into your eyes, they seem to be looking into caverns of flame that stretch to infinity. And when you open your mouth they see another cavern of flame that stretches to infinity. Because you've reached at that point the ultimate level of this usage and quite possibly, if you've at this point not been granted immortality, you're on your way to death. Not madness, but you're on your way to death. So it's sort of a race. The Dark One has given you this boon, but if you use it very much, then you'd better hope he is willing to give you another boon, because if he doesn't give you the second boon then you're dead. Some of the Forsaken have expressed discomfort with the fact that Ishamael and Moridin are so free with using the One Power.

QUESTION

 

And is it addictive?

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Yes.

QUESTION

 

Entirely.

ROBERT JORDAN

 

So is the One Power. That's one of the things that I intended from the beginning. The One Power has at least the potential for good, and it is something used by those on the side of good. And it is addictive, physically and psychologically addictive and also potentially very dangerous, even deadly to those who are using it.

QUESTION

 

And so the other Forsaken seem to be afraid of using the True Power?

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Well, they are, because they know this; they will use it when they have to, but they limit it, because they know that if you use it enough to let the saa begin to appear, then you are on a spiral and once they begin appearing, they begin appearing more often. And eventually, unless you are given immortality by the Dark One, you are dead. Now, the thing is, they don't wanna die. This is really great, it is a really great honor to be given the ability to tap into the True Power. Which is not inherently stronger than the One Power. It's not that it is stronger in any way. It is just something that does not have some of the limitations of the One Power. Other people can't feel you embracing it, or using it, like the One Power.

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No, there is no evidence of that. The only character allowed to do that is Moridin (use the True Power in large amounts), and the books talk about the True Power's addictive nature. Moridin already showed the saa across his eyes, the signs of addiction, back in Path of Daggers.

 

To leap from there to possession? There's no foundation for it.

 

Tell me, then, how Lews Therin could touch the Dark One with weaves

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Thank you very much for that, Suttree.

For this part, most of all:

ROBERT JORDAN

 

... you get to a point where if you've used it long enough you get a steady stream even if you're not connected.

 

Maybe a better question would be, why does the Dark One deem it necessary to limit usage of the True Power?

 

Edit: For Aross, You're correct that we do not have direct evidence that the Dark One can take over someone's body, but we do have the Prologue of ToM where Graendal used the TP to take over the mind of a dove and force it's body to do things.

Edited by JakeBarnes

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No, there is no evidence of that. The only character allowed to do that is Moridin (use the True Power in large amounts), and the books talk about the True Power's addictive nature. Moridin already showed the saa across his eyes, the signs of addiction, back in Path of Daggers.

 

To leap from there to possession? There's no foundation for it.

 

Rand used the true power to break the collar on his neck. Was that a temporary allowance, or is it that he still has access but chooses not to use it?

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No, there is no evidence of that. The only character allowed to do that is Moridin (use the True Power in large amounts), and the books talk about the True Power's addictive nature. Moridin already showed the saa across his eyes, the signs of addiction, back in Path of Daggers.

 

To leap from there to possession? There's no foundation for it.

 

Rand used the true power to break the collar on his neck. Was that a temporary allowance, or is it that he still has access but chooses not to use it?

 

Most think he gained access due to the link with Moridin. He has been choosing not to use it as evidence by comments to Cads in Far Madding.

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I find the following comment by BS concerning TP very interesting

 

 

Interview: Nov 14th, 2009

 

TGS Signing Report - Aubree Pham (Paraphrased)

 

Brandon Sanderson

 

The black/dark aura around Rand is partially, but not entirely, an effect of True Power usage. There will be consequences from Rand's True Power use.

This was after tGS came out but before TOM. I don't see anything of relevance in TOM though so I think it's something yet to happen. What can it be? Some kind of possession as the original poster suggested? something else? Shaidar Haran has some interesting powers (like shielding) over those sworn to the Shadow. perhaps he can now do it to Rand? I can't really think of anything else at the moment. But LTT said that TP was "death and betrayal" and it feels like a foreshadowing to me.

Edited by herid

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No, there is no evidence of that. The only character allowed to do that is Moridin (use the True Power in large amounts), and the books talk about the True Power's addictive nature. Moridin already showed the saa across his eyes, the signs of addiction, back in Path of Daggers.

 

To leap from there to possession? There's no foundation for it.

 

Rand used the true power to break the collar on his neck. Was that a temporary allowance, or is it that he still has access but chooses not to use it?

I had felt that it was a temporary allowance because the Dark One wanted to turn Rand... and this was his chance. If Rand had gone just a little further down this road before his transformation to Zen Rand... it was all over.

 

In ToM, we have at least a little glance that Rand thought he had permanent access to the True Power while in his Evil Rand state at least...

 

"You don't know how close you came to doom," Rand sad softly. "If I had come to you but a short time earlier, I'd have returned those slaps with balefire."

"Inside the Guardian?" Tenobia sniffed disdainfully.

"The Guardian blocks the One Power," Rand whispered. "The One Power only."

 

Which makes me think it was more a boon granted to Rand because he was so close to being lost to the Dark One, not simply because of his link to Moridin. However, I can see that some might think he still has access, and its certainly possible.

Edited by ozimandias

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Ya I personally think that scene with Semi played out exactly how the DO wanted. He used her as bait and a tool to further break Rand down and force him to use the TP. It may come from the link but I'm not real sure about that; I think the link is a much more personal thing between him and Moridin, hence Moridin having sympathy pains, and Rand wearing black and red after that incident.

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Rand has a permanent link to the True Power. He can sense it all the time, that's why he carries the Chodean Kal, to balance the lure of it.

 

INTERVIEW: 2011

Twitter 2011 (WoT) (Verbatim)

 

SHANE CRENSHAW (2 AUGUST 2011)

When Rand saved Ituralde from the Trollocs, did he use the True Power or saidin?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (2 AUGUST 2011)

Rand has resisted using the True Power except for that one dangerous moment. He can still sense it, though.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar

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No, there is no evidence of that. The only character allowed to do that is Moridin (use the True Power in large amounts), and the books talk about the True Power's addictive nature. Moridin already showed the saa across his eyes, the signs of addiction, back in Path of Daggers.

 

To leap from there to possession? There's no foundation for it.

 

Rand used the true power to break the collar on his neck. Was that a temporary allowance, or is it that he still has access but chooses not to use it?

I had felt that it was a temporary allowance because the Dark One wanted to turn Rand... and this was his chance. If Rand had gone just a little further down this road before his transformation to Zen Rand... it was all over.

 

In ToM, we have at least a little glance that Rand thought he had permanent access to the True Power while in his Evil Rand state at least...

 

"You don't know how close you came to doom," Rand sad softly. "If I had come to you but a short time earlier, I'd have returned those slaps with balefire."

"Inside the Guardian?" Tenobia sniffed disdainfully.

"The Guardian blocks the One Power," Rand whispered. "The One Power only."

 

Which makes me think it was more a boon granted to Rand because he was so close to being lost to the Dark One, not simply because of his link to Moridin. However, I can see that some might think he still has access, and its certainly possible.

 

I don't think the DO would have bothered to grant him use of the TP to tempt him. All Semi had to do was get him to SG, where he would be 13*13ed. Then it would be all over.. So I think Rand has access through the link, and the Dark One doesn't know that.

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I don't think the DO would have bothered to grant him use of the TP to tempt him. All Semi had to do was get him to SG, where he would be 13*13ed. Then it would be all over.. So I think Rand has access through the link, and the Dark One doesn't know that.

 

I agree with what you said except I think the DO does know, and had it as a backup plan. If Semirhage succeed, all good, if she didn't, then the link with Moridin and TP usage would benefit.

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I don't think the DO would have bothered to grant him use of the TP to tempt him. All Semi had to do was get him to SG, where he would be 13*13ed. Then it would be all over.. So I think Rand has access through the link, and the Dark One doesn't know that.

 

I agree with what you said except I think the DO does know, and had it as a backup plan. If Semirhage succeed, all good, if she didn't, then the link with Moridin and TP usage would benefit.

 

Perhaps so.. but if the DO doesn't know, that offers some interesting possibilities! I'm thinking of Rand commenting to Perrin that it will ultimately be the Taint that is the DO's downfall. I can envisage a situation where the DO somehow manages to block use of the OP.. but Rand can still channel..

Edited by FarShainMael

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Here is a break down of how it works...

 

QUESTION

I think it was the chapter when Moridin was observing with a cloak of fancloth. His vision was blurred by a rain of black spots.

QUESTION

 

But it didn't affect his vision.

ROBERT JORDAN

 

It didn't affect his vision. You're aware of it, but it's not like there is blackness between you, because it gets thicker and thicker and thicker and you get to a point where if you've used it long enough you get a steady stream even if you're not connected. And you are then on the road, at that point, inevitably, to becoming what Ishamael was. Because these are stigmata, if you will. These saa are stigmata caused by a linkage to the Dark One. And eventually the effect is to become all fire eyes. You no longer have eyes visible to other people. If they're looking into your eyes, they seem to be looking into caverns of flame that stretch to infinity. And when you open your mouth they see another cavern of flame that stretches to infinity. Because you've reached at that point the ultimate level of this usage and quite possibly, if you've at this point not been granted immortality, you're on your way to death. Not madness, but you're on your way to death. So it's sort of a race. The Dark One has given you this boon, but if you use it very much, then you'd better hope he is willing to give you another boon, because if he doesn't give you the second boon then you're dead. Some of the Forsaken have expressed discomfort with the fact that Ishamael and Moridin are so free with using the One Power.

QUESTION

 

And is it addictive?

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Yes.

QUESTION

 

Entirely.

ROBERT JORDAN

 

So is the One Power. That's one of the things that I intended from the beginning. The One Power has at least the potential for good, and it is something used by those on the side of good. And it is addictive, physically and psychologically addictive and also potentially very dangerous, even deadly to those who are using it.

QUESTION

 

And so the other Forsaken seem to be afraid of using the True Power?

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Well, they are, because they know this; they will use it when they have to, but they limit it, because they know that if you use it enough to let the saa begin to appear, then you are on a spiral and once they begin appearing, they begin appearing more often. And eventually, unless you are given immortality by the Dark One, you are dead. Now, the thing is, they don't wanna die. This is really great, it is a really great honor to be given the ability to tap into the True Power. Which is not inherently stronger than the One Power. It's not that it is stronger in any way. It is just something that does not have some of the limitations of the One Power. Other people can't feel you embracing it, or using it, like the One Power.

 

For me, this sheds a lot of light on the topic of Moridin and the punishment of Cyndane (a topic thoroughly discussed in numerous threads on DM), which usually revolves around the question of why Cyndane is presumably punished for dying/requiring resurrection, when Moridin in fact had died early in the series.

We are aware that Moridin, like Rand, has essentially embraced death, as he's mentioned that the other foresaken are foolish for desiring longevity and a higher standing; apparently Moridin is the only one who truly understands that, if the DO "wins," there will be nothing left: no lands to rule, no power/money to horde, etc. So in my opinion, Moridin embraces the True Power for this reason. Furthermore, it is a likely reason for why Moridin was not punished when he was slain by Rand early in the series. If Moridin (then, Ishy) knew he would soon die from overuse of the True Power, then he probably subscribed to the belief: "hey, I'm gonna die soon anyways from overuse of the True power, I might as well spend my time alive damaging Rand (both physically and emotionally)"--which is exactly what he did. From the DO's POV, Moridin spent his life using the True Power for good purposes, and died in a "valient manner," as far as the DO was concerned, at least. Thus, it now comes to no surprise to me that the DO was not displeased at all with Moridin's death, since he would died shortly thereafter anyways. I guess I'm not really answering a question here, just stating my opinion.

Something else we're discussing is whether the DO is aware of Rand's usage of the True Power when he escaped Semi's neck brace thing. My thoughts are on this matter are that the DO did not grant him access intentionally; rather, he gained access via his link with Moridin.

Edited by snooze1128

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Semirhage was a high level piece that was scarificed by Shai'tan in order for Rand to be converted to the Dark Side. This was Shai'tan's plan all along IMO.

 

Rand can draw massive amount of the TP, akin to Ishamael. It was hardly a trickle he channeled in order to destroy the male a'dam.

 

I would say the True Power is greater than the One Power, since it can do things the OP can't do, and no OP wielder can sense the TP (meanwhile TP wielders can sense OP wielders). Very distinct advantages. Disadvantages are death and being beholden to Shai'tan. But in a one-on-one fight or an ambush, the TP would give several advantages.

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Rand wailed. THIS CAN'T BE HAPPPENING! I WILL NOT DO THIS AGAIN!

 

Something snapped inside of him. He grew cold; then that coldness vanished, and he could feel nothing. No emotion. No anger.

 

At that moment he grew aware of a strange force. It was like a reservoir of water, boiling and churnng just beyond his view. He reached toward it with his mind.

 

A clouded face flashed before Rand's own, one whose features he couldn't quite make out. It was gone in a moment.

 

And Rand found himself filled with an alien power. Not saidin, not saidar, but something else. Something he'd never felt before.

 

Was that Moridin's face? If so, it would seem to indicate that Rand drew the TP thorugh the link.

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Since the DO isn't the most forgiving of mistakes or capture of the forsaken I think he (and Moridin) must have intentionally set up Semirhage to be killed by the True Power to try to turn Rand. Don't forget that Moridin was pissed about her blowing off Rands hand. So the DO probably allowed Rand access to the True Power on purpose

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Ya I personally think that scene with Semi played out exactly how the DO wanted. He used her as bait and a tool to further break Rand down and force him to use the TP. It may come from the link but I'm not real sure about that; I think the link is a much more personal thing between him and Moridin, hence Moridin having sympathy pains, and Rand wearing black and red after that incident.

 

I think I agree with this, there was a nice foreshadowing of this possibility in a POV from Semirhage as far back as LoC.

 

LoC, Threads Woven of Shadow:

If the Great Lord meant to make al'Thor Nae'blis, she herself would kneel to him -and wait for a slip to deliver him into her hands. Immortality meant infinite time to wait. There would always be other patients to amuse her in the meantime. What troubled her was Shaidar Haran. She had never been more than an indifferent tcheran player, but Shaidar Haran was a new piece on the board, one of unknown strength and purpose. And one daring way to capture your opponent's High Counselor and turn it to your side was to sacrifice your Spires in a false attack. She would kneel if need be, for as long need be, but she would not be sacrificed.

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Can a person who uses enough of the TP to die from it be brought back from the grave? I don't believe that the DO knows that rand is using the TP. Just my opinion.

 

A better way of putting it. If a person used the TP constantly and their eyes and mouth had turned into caverns of flames, then continued to use until it killed him. Could they be brought back from the grave?

Edited by plague fiend

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The DO wanted Rand to willingly turn to him for the TP. Especially when the OP is excluded. The reasons for this are fairly obvious but it creates a certain level of dependancy. As for Semirhage, her sole purpose was to screw with rands head and torture his mind, by capturing him and then using him on min. making him use the one power on his lover? well thats certainly something which would tip him over the edge...

 

but then to let him tap the True Power to escape? that is pure genius, it puts him in the DO's debt, creates a link to him. i.e the black thread, whether second hand or not, and puts him on the path to damnation.

 

So far no one other than Rand could see the Black Thread's, but i'd be surprised if what Tuon could see wasnt somehow linked to that.

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Again, why? If Semi had got Rand to SG and he had been turned, the DO would then have all the dependency he needed and grant Rand use of the TP. Why would he make things so complicated - and uncertain?

 

Nynaeve says to Leilwin in the Prologue that she had failed so badly in losing the dom band that the Dragon Reborn had been captured and they were 'heartbeats away' from destruction. Which is exactly what would have happened if Semi had done what she was supposed to and not stopped to play with her captive.

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It is widely speculated that the DO cannot truely "win" in the sense he wants to unless the Dragon, of his own free will, chooses to go over to him. Allowing Rand to Balefire Semi got him one step closer to that goal. Taking Rand to Shayol Ghul would not have. Even if Rand is 13x13ed, he will no longer be acting of his own free will.

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It is widely speculated that the DO cannot truely "win" in the sense he wants to unless the Dragon, of his own free will, chooses to go over to him. Allowing Rand to Balefire Semi got him one step closer to that goal. Taking Rand to Shayol Ghul would not have. Even if Rand is 13x13ed, he will no longer be acting of his own free will.

 

AIUI, yes he would.

 

Week 15 Question: When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-356.html

 

So they're not under any sort of Compulsion. And they still have desires, albeit twisted ones.

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