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joeron bigelow

taim has the fat man - right?

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The fat man angreal was never mentioned in what has been released of AMOL. But I don't believe Taim has it.

It looks like Taim had people look for it after Rand was rescued at Dumai Wells but didn't find it.

 

Taim shadowed Rand, of course, dark and slightly hook-nosed and what Perrin supposed most women would consider good-looking. A number of the Maidens had certainly given him second looks, and third; they were forward about that sort of thing. As Taim stepped inside, he glanced to Gedwyn, who shook his head just a hair. A grimace flashed across Taim’s face, gone as soon as it appeared.

--aCoS, ch 2

There was nothing else of interest on Rand when he was taken so I believe the above refers to a failed search for the fat man angreal.

Demandred likely has it. Moridin only uses TP so it's useless to him. There are no other suspects left who are still alive other than Demandred. This means he was likely involved in Rand's kidnapping and got a pat on the head from the DO at the end of LoC as a reward.

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Are you saying that you saw the angreal in the prologue's FS get-together? I don't remember anything like that, but I could be mistaken.

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Who do you think gave it to Demandred? One of the Asha'man or one of the Aes Sedai?

Probably the Black Aes Sedai. I would suspect Demandred got it while Rand was still in Cairhien. Remember, he was held there for a while and they took his coat (the fat man angreal was usually in the coat pocket).

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Actually, I think it's just with one of the Aes Sedai who escaped--taken as a momento. For a time after tGS I even thought it was going to be used as a way for Egwene to investigate the silence of the Black Tower (I was thinking maybe some Aes Sedai's warder had played around with it, it had grown warm, allowing them a spy to investigate the Black Tower in the post-taint world). But meh.

 

As for Taim having it, I think he had his people look for it, and they found nothing.

 

A good dozen Asha'man lounged by a wagon about twenty paces from the sisters. A cocky fellow named Charl Gedwyn had charge of them this morning, a hard-faced man who swaggered standing still.

 

[and then later]

 

Taim shadowed Rand, of course, dark and slightly hooknosed and what Perrin supposed most women would consider good-looking. A number of the Maidens had certainly given him second looks, and third; they were forward about that sort of thing. As Taim stepped inside, he glanced to Gedwyn, who shook his head just a hair. A grimace flashed across Taim's face, gone as soon as it appeared.

 

Now of course this could be because Kiruna and the others hadn't done anything to justify Gedwyn to act against them (which was their nominal purpose in standing near that wagon), but then Taim would have been able to see that without glancing at Gedwyn. Nevertheless, it's evident Taim ordered Gedwyn to keep an eye out for something, and that Gedwyn was reporting in the negative to whatever that was. If not the sisters, than the wagon seems the likely hint as to what it was he was saying no too--or specifically, to whatever was in the wagon (which, remember, Rand had searched for the angreal himself).

 

Perhaps Gedwyn took it of course (though again, Rand had searched all the wagons already, so that seems very unlikely), plus if he did, he denied it to Taim (though maybe Demandred took it, we know they interacted later on). Still it seems more likely Gedwyn simply failed.

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How can you use the angreal to spy?

 

It's what the angreal shows that would allow Egwene to select a spy--specifically if a man who can or could channel holds an angreal for a time it will go warm in his hands. Basically it would have given Egwene a warder who they knew could learn to channel whom she could send (with say a dream ring) to the Black Tower to be taught.

 

Meh. It's not to be.

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Didnt brandon say he was fond of the angreal? and it will make an appearance again? i can see only one of 3 people using it logain demandred or taim in amol.

 

ps luckers did u end up doing ur chapter 1 summary or you scrapped that idea?

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Didnt brandon say he was fond of the angreal? and it will make an appearance again? i can see only one of 3 people using it logain demandred or taim in amol.

 

ps luckers did u end up doing ur chapter 1 summary or you scrapped that idea?

 

I'm not doing a summary, I'm explaining why I named it apalling. And no, I havn't scrapped it. I've written about 2,000 words, and am still thinking on it. (Hopefully won't be anywhere near that long once I scrape it down).

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About the "Fat Man" angreal,@ Cem Onal, I thought Sevanna had gotten it when she had the Shaido attack the party holding Rand and took it from one of the captured Aes Sedai but can't seem to find it anywhere. Which means I was probably wrong in this respect and she never had it. ( @ fanolan,Yes I am aware she had/has one of the "call boxes") I did find a small section on Rand wondering if the coat he was wearing when captured actually had it in the pocket. He seemed to remember changing coats in a rush and does'nt recall if he actually transfered it. If he did not, that might mean it was in his room that got blasted and some worker clearing rubble might have come across it. Assuming nobody searched his room after he was taken and found it ( like Min who very likely forgot about it in her distress of his kidnapping ).

 

Just tossing this out...

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Actually, I think it's just with one of the Aes Sedai who escaped--taken as a momento. For a time after tGS I even thought it was going to be used as a way for Egwene to investigate the silence of the Black Tower (I was thinking maybe some Aes Sedai's warder had played around with it, it had grown warm, allowing them a spy to investigate the Black Tower in the post-taint world). But meh.

 

As for Taim having it, I think he had his people look for it, and they found nothing.

 

A good dozen Asha'man lounged by a wagon about twenty paces from the sisters. A cocky fellow named Charl Gedwyn had charge of them this morning, a hard-faced man who swaggered standing still.

 

[and then later]

 

Taim shadowed Rand, of course, dark and slightly hooknosed and what Perrin supposed most women would consider good-looking. A number of the Maidens had certainly given him second looks, and third; they were forward about that sort of thing. As Taim stepped inside, he glanced to Gedwyn, who shook his head just a hair. A grimace flashed across Taim's face, gone as soon as it appeared.

yes, i gave this quote above too. I'm pretty sure Gedwyn didn't take it. It would have come out by now. He would have likely used it against Rand during the attack on Rand in Cairhien in tPoD and in any case, Gedwyn bought the farm on Fain's dagger and Fain certainly had no use at all for an angreal.

So I think we can cross him and Taim out and other Asha'man likely too. Next, as I said I believe whoever took it did it in Cairhien. When Rand is taken he is wearing his coat (LoC, ch 51) and he normally carried the angreal in the coat pocket. When Erian is beating him in ch 53 he seems to be only in his shirt. They likely took his coat off while he was in the cage in Lady Arilyn's palace in Cairhien. That probably means it was taken by one of the Aes Sedai. There is a possibility that it was taken by a servant but that seems less likely.

 

But either way I don't think it left Cairhien when the Aes Sedai with Rand left. Taim and Rand didn't find it. The Aes Sedai made da'tsang were stripped of everything and their possessions burned. Not sure about the ones who were stilled but it seems very unlikely to me that one of them would have it. Most of the ones that escaped made it back to Tar Valon . If one of them had it it would have resurfaced by now. It's not something that's going to end up as a souvenir. That can happen in real life but in a story as WOT it's clearly meant to play an interesting role, especially in view of BS's comment. We know Galina didn't have it. Katerina is now dead. If she had it she passed it along to somebody and I don't see that somebody being Mesaana or anybody else in the Tower.

Basically, there doesn't seem to be anybody left. So I believe it was pilfered back in Cairhien and the only remaining candidate of the major players who are still alive is Demandred. There is also Moridin but as I mentioned earlier he only uses TP and RJ said that one can't use angreal when channeling TP.

So Demandred it is.

 

BTW, an interesting twist on the whole story is that Cadsuane and her entourage also stayed in Lady Arilyn's palace when they showed up in Cairhien in aCoS. Frankly I don't know what to make of that. An interesting question to me is whether or not Arilyn is a DF and maybe an agent of Demandred. She is never actually on screen as far as I can tell. It was pretty ballsy of her to offer her place to Cadsuane after it was just recently used by Elaida's embassy that kidnapped Rand. It also gives extra meaning to the later episode after Rand is injured by Fain and Cadsuane wants to take him to Arillyn's house. Min insists on the Sun palace because it might be very bad if Rands "awakes in a strange place surrounded by strange Aes Sedai". It would certainly have been quite something if that strange placed ended up being the same exact place where he was held prisoner and Rand recognized it. There could have been some serious fireworks.

I also find it strange that apparently nobody saw fit to question Arilyn after Rand was rescued. Everybody knew where Elaida's embassy stayed.

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At work so can't research this, but in light of all the wacky theories, Herid has just triggered one in my head.

 

I give you Lady Demarilyn!

Arilyn is never seen on screen, Demandred could have posed and helped push Rand a long way towards Dark Rand by 'influencing' the Tower Ajah to go to the extreme they did (through the BA in the group as well)

 

Never been seen on screen, and aren't we supposed to be able to figure it out from LoC??

Edited by Gythwyn

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ha-ha, I didn't mean that! Lady Arilyn doesn't seem to command any armies or justify the "my rule is secure" remark. She seems to be a pretty minor noble.

Without Cadsuane in her palace, Dobraine's people broke in easily when he wanted to get Caraline and Darlin out. And her house (Dhulaine) is never mentioned with relation to possible claims to the throne or when the Cairhienin nobles swear fealty to Rand which was done by rank.

 

I was only thinking in terms of her possibly being an agent of Demandred, not Demandred himself.

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I'm not convinced the Aes Sedai who kidnaped Rand kept the fat man angreal or even would have thought anything significant of it. I know they were to search him for "anything interesting", but does it nessessarily have to be the angreal? Aes Sedai dont have respect for the capibilities of men who can channel. Would they 1: expect to find an angreal for men, 2: recognise it when they saw it; for all they knew the dragon scepter could have been an angreal for men, and 3: isnt this before the time where angreals for men were something no one had even thought about?

 

These are woman who are very secure in the knowlege of their own superiority, and the abject pathetic inferiority of men in general and specificaly the "poor bastards" who can channel. The Dragon Reborn, despite everything to them, is still just a man who can channel. Would it even cross their mind to look for an angreal? What if they were looking for say, one of the seals to the DO's prison, or hell, since the kidnapping aes sedai were BA and they were given instructions from the Forsaken to search for "something interesting" what if they were looking for the female access key?

 

I think Taim was looking in the wrong place for Rand's fat man angreal, I think it is sitting on a shelf in the place Rand was innitialy taken.

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What if they were looking for say, one of the seals to the DO's prison, or hell, since the kidnapping aes sedai were BA and they were given instructions from the Forsaken to search for "something interesting" what if they were looking for the female access key?

 

Think it goes without saying that the forsaken would have been very clear about looking for any potential items of power.

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I dont think so, Suttree. All the Forsaken have shown nothing but contempt for any of the modern Aes Sedai. Every time a Forsaken sends out one of their BA minions to find something it's with a minimum of instruction of what and why so as to keep them uninformed and thus not a threat. The 13 who stole ter'Angreal from the Tower holding knew what to steal, just not what they were and they were some very, very powerful items. Same with the storehouse in Ebu Dar: they knew to look for a storehouse, but not what was IN the storeroom. Makes it pretty hard to accomplish their mission, but I dont think the Forsaken care about that. The instructions to search Rand and bring back "anything interesting" sounds exactly like something that a Forsaken would do especialy when dealling with potentialy getting their hands on something like the access keys.

Edited by Lurk31

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@ Lurk 31, I cannot remember but I think there was debate among the WT about what to do with the angreal attuned to men. I think Egwene was speaking with Siuan TAR about the towers attitudes needing to change regarding objects of the power because different cultures (e.g. the Sea Folk ) have objects of power that "belong" to them and they have experience in their use. It wouldn't make sense for the WT to keep any object of power attuned to men because the aes sedai cannot use them. Although I don't think there was any serious discussion or that the hall of the the tower had been called in session for it.

 

Fred

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@ Lurk 31, I cannot remember but I think there was debate among the WT about what to do with the angreal attuned to men. I think Egwene was speaking with Siuan TAR about the towers attitudes needing to change regarding objects of the power because different cultures (e.g. the Sea Folk ) have objects of power that "belong" to them and they have experience in their use. It wouldn't make sense for the WT to keep any object of power attuned to men because the aes sedai cannot use them. Although I don't think there was any serious discussion or that the hall of the the tower had been called in session for it.

 

Fred

 

Of course, but that is Egwene and her understandably more progressive stance on male channeling. The other Aes Sedai, especialy from Elaida's camp, and especialy the Reds are a bit more hidebound on the topic. Also, the older Aes Sedai seem a bit shocked about the idea that an Angreal attuned toward men even exists.

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The instructions to search Rand and bring back "anything interesting" sounds exactly like something that a Forsaken would do especialy when dealling with potentialy getting their hands on something like the access keys.

There was nothing potential about it. This instruction came from Moridin, in the time when Rand prepared to Cleanse the Source. He was very clear that Rand's fate interested him much less than acquiring these ter'angreal.

 

Besides which, we have multiple references to the Forsaken being interested in angreal or sa'angreal to use against one another.

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lol, that would certainly be embarrassing all right. but seriously, we know that this was not the issue. Rand searched the wagons for the fat man angreal after he was freed. this means it was on Rand when he was taken.

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Do you think Rand started looking for it in crazy places he knew it couldn't be? Like 'Man, I know I didn't have this in Tear but I'm still searching here. Its got to be somewhere!'

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