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elric

how the Senchean beat the Aial (avienda vision) ???

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Except at Dumais Wells to attack they had to lift the shield which kind of defeats the point of having it - they used it at the time to secure Rand and the AS, then lifted it and dealt with the Shaido. It may well be that they could learn how to attack through the shield, but if they can do it so can the Seanchan. Or they spend a lot of time learning 1-way shields.

 

Especially agree with your last paragraph - this thread has come up with multiple ways for the good guys to win, but in books the Seanchan have effectively defeated 2 of the 5 great captains.

 

the Dumai's Wells part I meant the Aes Sedai, they had a circle holding a shield while others fought back individually, so it is possible just to varying degrees.

 

Regarding the 5 Captains tho, neither really had a decent fighting force. Bashere was hobbled by having Rand interfere and not really let him fight it his way, and it was a battle rather than a skirmish. Itaralda(sp) would have royally given them a headache had he been given a more equal footing.

 

I think the main problem for Randland is other than the borderlanders they lack a professional military. Hereditary based militaries stand no chance against one which actually expects its officers to think for themselves without worrying that they're going to get executed for doing the right thing but embaresses some up hit own crack noble.

 

Shame really, I loathe the Seanchan, was actually rooting for Rand when he was going to wipe them out piece by piece, but as ive said before I think i'd prefer the Dark One to win than them.

 

The only shield I remember being used at Dumai Wells was the one on Rand? Other than that the AS were spread out defending against the weaves coming in and attacking the Aiel. I don't recall the defence being a shield, more the way Rand and Lanfear battled in Tear, countering each others attacks.

 

But with the 5 Captains, their's no reason to assume that the troops they'll have after TG will be any better. If the Seanchan help out then sure they'll have their own losses, but by helping out the Randlanders are unlikely to unite against them, especially if they don't invade any more places. Bashere seemed to have total control. The only things Rand did was push the fighting towards Ebou Dar after Bashere wanted to withdraw and then use Callandor. The only effect continuing the fight had on Randland soldiers was in killing more of Rands soldiers and delaying the Seanchan expansion. (If they'd pulled back when Bashere initially suggested, I don't see anything that would have prevented the Seanchan retaliating and continuing the expansion.

 

Additionally the Dumais wells has the General thinking that the Taraboners are a pretty decent force (when strengthened by a core of Seanchan - I think). The Seanchan haven't been in control of Tarabon for very long at this stage! If they can assimilate local troops into their group that quickly, that's frightening! Randland will never have an alliance that's that effective.

 

Agreed about wishing the Seanchan had been driven back again! I'm not defending them because I like them, but because I think they have a far superior military than anything in Randland (unfortunately)

Not sure if you are being pedantic or are confused. The Ashaman used a shield of air to keep the Aiel out, granted you might call it a barrier and say that shield refers to stopping someone from using the OP, but still.

 

Neither, although I wasn't to clear.

 

Initially I assumed the shield he was talking about was the one by the Ashaman which was lifted to attack. Morden then responded with saying that it was the shield the AS was using. I then responded to that (but failed to specify that I meant the shields the AS were holding) to say that the only shield the AS were holding (that I remember) was the one on Rand.

 

Your correct, been a while since i read book 6 and I must have gotten it muddled in my head between the Asha'man's barrier and what the AS were doing. They were stopping the fireballs but most likely by cutting the weaves off rather than using a barrier.

 

Hmm interesting though, it shows a great deal about the skill of 2-300 wise ones against 33 AS that they could hold them off without a barrier, that makes it somewhat more difficult for a circle unless you flip it and have a shed load of solo or man-woman duo's as defensive workhorses and have the circle as an offensive weapon wreaking havoc.

 

They seriously need Elayne to mimic Mat's medallion fully.... That or hope Elayne & co's research into A'dam comes across some kind of cart blance weave which renders it useless from a distance.

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Except at Dumais Wells to attack they had to lift the shield which kind of defeats the point of having it - they used it at the time to secure Rand and the AS, then lifted it and dealt with the Shaido. It may well be that they could learn how to attack through the shield, but if they can do it so can the Seanchan. Or they spend a lot of time learning 1-way shields.

 

Especially agree with your last paragraph - this thread has come up with multiple ways for the good guys to win, but in books the Seanchan have effectively defeated 2 of the 5 great captains.

 

the Dumai's Wells part I meant the Aes Sedai, they had a circle holding a shield while others fought back individually, so it is possible just to varying degrees.

 

Regarding the 5 Captains tho, neither really had a decent fighting force. Bashere was hobbled by having Rand interfere and not really let him fight it his way, and it was a battle rather than a skirmish. Itaralda(sp) would have royally given them a headache had he been given a more equal footing.

 

I think the main problem for Randland is other than the borderlanders they lack a professional military. Hereditary based militaries stand no chance against one which actually expects its officers to think for themselves without worrying that they're going to get executed for doing the right thing but embaresses some up hit own crack noble.

 

Shame really, I loathe the Seanchan, was actually rooting for Rand when he was going to wipe them out piece by piece, but as ive said before I think i'd prefer the Dark One to win than them.

 

The only shield I remember being used at Dumai Wells was the one on Rand? Other than that the AS were spread out defending against the weaves coming in and attacking the Aiel. I don't recall the defence being a shield, more the way Rand and Lanfear battled in Tear, countering each others attacks.

 

But with the 5 Captains, their's no reason to assume that the troops they'll have after TG will be any better. If the Seanchan help out then sure they'll have their own losses, but by helping out the Randlanders are unlikely to unite against them, especially if they don't invade any more places. Bashere seemed to have total control. The only things Rand did was push the fighting towards Ebou Dar after Bashere wanted to withdraw and then use Callandor. The only effect continuing the fight had on Randland soldiers was in killing more of Rands soldiers and delaying the Seanchan expansion. (If they'd pulled back when Bashere initially suggested, I don't see anything that would have prevented the Seanchan retaliating and continuing the expansion.

 

Additionally the Dumais wells has the General thinking that the Taraboners are a pretty decent force (when strengthened by a core of Seanchan - I think). The Seanchan haven't been in control of Tarabon for very long at this stage! If they can assimilate local troops into their group that quickly, that's frightening! Randland will never have an alliance that's that effective.

 

Agreed about wishing the Seanchan had been driven back again! I'm not defending them because I like them, but because I think they have a far superior military than anything in Randland (unfortunately)

Not sure if you are being pedantic or are confused. The Ashaman used a shield of air to keep the Aiel out, granted you might call it a barrier and say that shield refers to stopping someone from using the OP, but still.

 

Neither, although I wasn't to clear.

 

Initially I assumed the shield he was talking about was the one by the Ashaman which was lifted to attack. Morden then responded with saying that it was the shield the AS was using. I then responded to that (but failed to specify that I meant the shields the AS were holding) to say that the only shield the AS were holding (that I remember) was the one on Rand.

 

Your correct, been a while since i read book 6 and I must have gotten it muddled in my head between the Asha'man's barrier and what the AS were doing. They were stopping the fireballs but most likely by cutting the weaves off rather than using a barrier.

 

Hmm interesting though, it shows a great deal about the skill of 2-300 wise ones against 33 AS that they could hold them off without a barrier, that makes it somewhat more difficult for a circle unless you flip it and have a shed load of solo or man-woman duo's as defensive workhorses and have the circle as an offensive weapon wreaking havoc.

 

They seriously need Elayne to mimic Mat's medallion fully.... That or hope Elayne & co's research into A'dam comes across some kind of cart blance weave which renders it useless from a distance.

 

Yes, I may have to give the AS more credit than I normally do :(

 

Mat's medallion may not be of much use in a battle situation - it doesn't stop lightning from the sky, the ground erupting beneath you, or walls collapsing on you. It's of most use in a dual I think, although there is the initial shock factor in battle which could be helpful.

 

(imo) I hope they don't find an all out defensive shield that renders them unbeatable - stories are more interesting if their's a risk to the characters, or even a price to pay.

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So to summarize this thread:

 

There are certain situations where a circle is better and certain situations where individual channelers are better. The best warfare would use both as all we are doing now is throwing up strategies and countering them as the generals would have to

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So to summarize this thread:

 

There are certain situations where a circle is better and certain situations where individual channelers are better. The best warfare would use both as all we are doing now is throwing up strategies and countering them as the generals would have to

 

LOL

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(imo) I hope they don't find an all out defensive shield that renders them unbeatable - stories are more interesting if their's a risk to the characters, or even a price to pay.

 

There was that one shield Rand used when he was attacked in Cairhein by Dashiva/Osan'Gar. Rand quickly wrapped himself in a shield that blocked all energy (except maybe balefire?). The problem was it also didn't let him see around him (blocked the light) and didn't let any of his own weaves out. Great thing to have in your Shield Pouch on the Bat-Belt, though. Not ideal for all scenarios, of course, but great for ambushes where you don't know who is attacking you, from where, and with what.

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(imo) I hope they don't find an all out defensive shield that renders them unbeatable - stories are more interesting if their's a risk to the characters, or even a price to pay.

 

There was that one shield Rand used when he was attacked in Cairhein by Dashiva/Osan'Gar. Rand quickly wrapped himself in a shield that blocked all energy (except maybe balefire?). The problem was it also didn't let him see around him (blocked the light) and didn't let any of his own weaves out. Great thing to have in your Shield Pouch on the Bat-Belt, though. Not ideal for all scenarios, of course, but great for ambushes where you don't know who is attacking you, from where, and with what.

 

Didn't is also block air exchange? I don't mind this sort of shield, as it maintains the limitations - you can't be attacked inside, but you can't attack outside either. But if he could shield himself to that degree and still atack outside? Nah, not as interesting (imo)

 

Good call though.

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So to summarize this thread:

 

There are certain situations where a circle is better and certain situations where individual channelers are better. The best warfare would use both as all we are doing now is throwing up strategies and countering them as the generals would have to

 

Since AS and Asha'men have both options, that would be a point to the AS/AM because they have an extra tool in their tool belt.

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So to summarize this thread:

 

There are certain situations where a circle is better and certain situations where individual channelers are better. The best warfare would use both as all we are doing now is throwing up strategies and countering them as the generals would have to

 

Since AS and Asha'men have both options, that would be a point to the AS/AM because they have an extra tool in their tool belt.

only if they work together and have an organized war council. Lacking that the seanchan will have easy pickings

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You touch on a number of really interesting things. Male channelers and a clean source is another blow to the Seanchan culture - currently they don't test for male channelers. I'd assume they now have the male adam and their's no reason to suppose it acts differently, but it's still a major cultural shift. Add this onto the fact that Tuon now knows she could channel, she's been exposed to Setalle, their are sul'dam that know they're damane, Mat's working on it... I think the damane is going to become a thing of the past.

 

I don't know if the Dominion band is the "male a'dam", since it isn't used by males, its used by females and males. We already know that male learners (as opposed to sparkers) interact with the sul'dam, since grabbing it with a woman on the other end will cause death, so it's likely that the males can simply use the sul'dam to bind other males. If they are willing to accept using men damane.

 

The change in culture is going to be huge, i agree, and not just with the sul'damanes. Mat is going to reject a lot of the traditions of the Seachan, i think. I can't see him being okay with this kids trying to assassinate each other. I wonder if this failure to adapt, along with Tuon learning that she can be a damane, is exactly what brings Tuon and Mat down.

 

On a tangent, does anybody else think that Tuon's life must have sucked? No real friends or family, raised with the understanding that she must fight with her own siblings to succeed the empress or die?

 

I've just reread the Damona campaign and found a bit that I'd completely forgotten. Rand was winning the initial campaign, but just before he used Callandor, Bashere told him that he'd ordered a retreat, that as things were then the Seanchans return strategy was going to work and that Rand would lose. Rand then uses Callandor and forces things to a draw, but neither side was aware of that (before I reread the bit, I thought Rand was winning and forced it to a draw). After initially losing to Ituralde, they managed to force him to a stedding where he was waiting to die until Rand showed up and offered an out. Against 2 of the great Captains, they've forced the battle to a win (almost). Their's no reason to assume that anyone in Randland would do better.

 

The fought Ilturade and Bashere to a standstill after receiving absolutley massive losses against intensely inferior forces. Ilturade had no channelers and a smaller number, Rand had a much, much smaller force that wasn't designed to force the Seachan out in the first place. They were relying on cheesy strategies like hit-and-run to overcome their weaknesses, and once the Seachan caught on the Randlandians were caught out. I don't think the same would happen in a more equitable exchange of forces, where there is simple tactical superiority instead of cheesy, one-hit-wonder strategies. And honestly, the losses incurred were enough so that even if the Seachan did adapt, an equal force could simply overwhelm them.

 

Of course, we have to keep in mind that neither RJ nor BS look at military campaigns as a significant point in the plot. They are tools to move it forward, and often what should happen and what does happen are massively different--look at the Aiel's frankly unbelievable military success.

 

Yes, their's a massive leadership gap all through Randland in the 20 years after TG. Elayne is presumably dead (or missing), Rand, Eg, Rhuarc, Wise Ones, pretty much everyone who leads now isn't mentioned in the first viewpoint - this worries me!

I wonder if this was an alternate past where these people were killed, which results in one of the DO's "victories". If all of them get through the last battle, and the Aiel have solid leadership, the Seachan are the ones to fall, or there is a peaceful resolution.

Edited by TNine

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well we know as per RJ that he wanted to do a follow up Novel or two with Mat and Tuon retaking Seandar(think thats the Seanchan home continent) I cant see him not somehow resolving the problems at least partially.

 

But this time the Aiel know they will fail if Avi tells the right people maybe they will take measures to either resolve it peacefully or exterminate the seanchan. Cant see them wiping the seanchan out because quite frankly they are too arrogant and disdainful of anyone not Aiel, whereas the Seanchan other than their treatment to channelers do actually treat their subjects very well as long as they follow the laws. (think why the tinkers are settling there....)

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You touch on a number of really interesting things. Male channelers and a clean source is another blow to the Seanchan culture - currently they don't test for male channelers. I'd assume they now have the male adam and their's no reason to suppose it acts differently, but it's still a major cultural shift. Add this onto the fact that Tuon now knows she could channel, she's been exposed to Setalle, their are sul'dam that know they're damane, Mat's working on it... I think the damane is going to become a thing of the past.

 

I don't know if the Dominion band is the "male a'dam", since it isn't used by males, its used by females and males. We already know that male learners (as opposed to sparkers) interact with the sul'dam, since grabbing it with a woman on the other end will cause death, so it's likely that the males can simply use the sul'dam to bind other males. If they are willing to accept using men damane.

 

The change in culture is going to be huge, i agree, and not just with the sul'damanes. Mat is going to reject a lot of the traditions of the Seachan, i think. I can't see him being okay with this kids trying to assassinate each other. I wonder if this failure to adapt, along with Tuon learning that she can be a damane, is exactly what brings Tuon and Mat down.

 

On a tangent, does anybody else think that Tuon's life must have sucked? No real friends or family, raised with the understanding that she must fight with her own siblings to succeed the empress or die?

 

I've just reread the Damona campaign and found a bit that I'd completely forgotten. Rand was winning the initial campaign, but just before he used Callandor, Bashere told him that he'd ordered a retreat, that as things were then the Seanchans return strategy was going to work and that Rand would lose. Rand then uses Callandor and forces things to a draw, but neither side was aware of that (before I reread the bit, I thought Rand was winning and forced it to a draw). After initially losing to Ituralde, they managed to force him to a stedding where he was waiting to die until Rand showed up and offered an out. Against 2 of the great Captains, they've forced the battle to a win (almost). Their's no reason to assume that anyone in Randland would do better.

 

The fought Ilturade and Bashere to a standstill after receiving absolutley massive losses against intensely inferior forces. Ilturade had no channelers and a smaller number, Rand had a much, much smaller force that wasn't designed to force the Seachan out in the first place. They were relying on cheesy strategies like hit-and-run to overcome their weaknesses, and once the Seachan caught on the Randlandians were caught out. I don't think the same would happen in a more equitable exchange of forces, where there is simple tactical superiority instead of cheesy, one-hit-wonder strategies. And honestly, the losses incurred were enough so that even if the Seachan did adapt, an equal force could simply overwhelm them.

 

Of course, we have to keep in mind that neither RJ nor BS look at military campaigns as a significant point in the plot. They are tools to move it forward, and often what should happen and what does happen are massively different--look at the Aiel's frankly unbelievable military success.

 

Yes, their's a massive leadership gap all through Randland in the 20 years after TG. Elayne is presumably dead (or missing), Rand, Eg, Rhuarc, Wise Ones, pretty much everyone who leads now isn't mentioned in the first viewpoint - this worries me!

I wonder if this was an alternate past where these people were killed, which results in one of the DO's "victories". If all of them get through the last battle, and the Aiel have solid leadership, the Seachan are the ones to fall, or there is a peaceful resolution.

 

Yup - you said the culture bit a lot more coherantly than I managed :) And yes, it was a horrible childhood!

 

Problem is that we don't know what the shape of the forces will be after TG - to begin with it's just the Aiel who are down to a remnant of a remnant - as others have said it's remarkable they fought as long as they did!

 

well we know as per RJ that he wanted to do a follow up Novel or two with Mat and Tuon retaking Seandar(think thats the Seanchan home continent) I cant see him not somehow resolving the problems at least partially.

 

But this time the Aiel know they will fail if Avi tells the right people maybe they will take measures to either resolve it peacefully or exterminate the seanchan. Cant see them wiping the seanchan out because quite frankly they are too arrogant and disdainful of anyone not Aiel, whereas the Seanchan other than their treatment to channelers do actually treat their subjects very well as long as they follow the laws. (think why the tinkers are settling there....)

 

My belief is that Avi saw the future that was being shaped before Rand went to DragonMount - the clouds cleared halfway through her second walk through. We know there are portal worlds with alternative pasts, this implies that in the past there were points where the future split. Dragonmount would certainly qualify for a world splitting event. However the fact that Avi saw that future, that Rand decided not to destroy the world means an alternative future is possible/likely.

 

(Also think of the Rhuidean Rings which show multiple personal futures - except for certain set events, like Mins viewings, the future is not set in stone.)

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My belief is that Avi saw the future that was being shaped before Rand went to DragonMount - the clouds cleared halfway through her second walk through. We know there are portal worlds with alternative pasts, this implies that in the past there were points where the future split. Dragonmount would certainly qualify for a world splitting event. However the fact that Avi saw that future, that Rand decided not to destroy the world means an alternative future is possible/likely.

 

(Also think of the Rhuidean Rings which show multiple personal futures - except for certain set events, like Mins viewings, the future is not set in stone.)

 

I deffinately agree with you there. Sometimes I think some of the visions they see are basically a big "Warning: Dont Screw UP... or this will happen." from the pattern itself, The reason I think this is because the visions rarely ever seem to show the best options for people to take. This would be a big no no regarding free will, so instead the pattern shows the worst and lets the viewer decide for themselves how to avoid it. Like Moiraine having her decision regarding Lanfear.

 

Makes me wonder whether those ter'angrael were an AoL tool similar to those vacuul's(sp)

 

Avi needed to see it though or there would have been little chance to stop it whether it happened in 1 generation or 10.

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I just wanted to chime in that i think some people aren't understanding how power levels work with a circle vs. a group of individual channellers. If you have a circle of 10 people it won't equal the combined strength of the 10 channellers, however 10 individual channellers are not stronger than a circle of 10. An example would be 10 pebbles vs a boulder.

Edited by aaron11

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The Seachan channeler's are hardened weapons. They are like starved and beaten Bulls. They are starved of the power so when they finally get the chance to use the power they don't even care what they end up doing they just drink it in like it is their last meal. Those two things combined make for one incredibly deadly combination. On the other hand, the Aiel wise one's are great warriors, but nothing really in comparison to the Seachan.

 

Really the only match the Seachan have are the Asha'Man. They are basically trained the same way, except the Asha'man are free and not dogs on leashes. I think this will have a very big impact on what Rand does when he learns about the Black Tower and how most of the world's asha'man are now in the hands of the DO. With that revelation mixed with the sacking of the White Tower? The world would have no defense against the Seachan armies. Brute strength vs. Brute strength will always favor the Seachan in the end.

 

The Seachan is the biggest threat to this world that has been created. Far beyond the Chosen if you ask me. The Chosen have not lived up to their reputation in any way, shape or form and they are more like squabbling children then anything.

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Not sure this was mentioned, but the Seanchan military reminds me of Rome, during the twilight of the Republic (110-~40 BC). During this time, Rome fought a great number of wars: multiple civil wars, pirate wars, wars of conquest, and wars repelling invading Germans. In particular, the wars against the invading Germans illustrate their military mentality. When the Cimbri and Teutoni first showed up in northern Italy, Rome lost quite a few battles due to the enept commanders. Men like Mallius Maximus and Servilius Caepio didn't know what they were doing, and in Caepio's case, his patrician's ego kept him from joining his army to Maximus', resulting in a divided army. The resulting battle at Arausio lost the Romans 100,000 men. The previous 2 battles against the Germans, Noreia and Agen, had been losses for the Romans too, 24,000 alone being lost at Noreia.

 

And yet Gauis Marius turned things around within just a decade. He instituted changes to the military (the eagles as standards, recruiting the landless headcount populous, modified weaponry). He also developed tactics and a strategy to deal with the multipronged invasion. The result was that at Aquae Sextiae and Vercellae he was able to turn back the invaders. At Acquae Sextiae, with only 40,000 men, he was able to defeat the invading army of 120,000 men, resulting in 90,000 enemy deaths. Similarly, at Vercellae his 50,000 men defeated 210,000 with 140,000 enemy deaths.

 

This wasn't a one time situation. Rome would often lose their first few battles until someone came along and, having learned the lessons of what went wrong, was able to turn things around. Their ability to keep fielding men despite huge losses bought them time until the right person could show up. It helped that their (admittedly restricted) republic allowed from some social movement and adaptability. Marius himself was the first of his family to serve in the senate after he had been elected, if I recall correctly, to the office of Praetor. As such they called him a New Man. The entire history of Rome was one of adaptation. Monarchy turns into Patrician senator oligarchy. The plebian's gain power and protection with the office of the tribunes and their power of veto. Plebians are then admitted to the senate. Offices are filled through voting in their various tribes (similar to the role of states with their electoral college votes.) While not necessarily innovative and into philosophy like the Greeks, they were supremely good at using and adapting the ideas and inventions and technology of the day. They were doers who took existing things like the concept of the Greek phalanx, and then modifyied them into the more powerful and adaptable legion, whose maneuverability came from their subdivisions into even smaller and smaller pieces, from the cohort all the way down to the decury, a single 10 man unit.

 

Now imagine an entire military culture that is taught to be that way. A highly structured chain of command. Social mobility into command positions based on merit as a reward for innovation and adaptability. A large pool to draw more bodies for battle. Near fanatic support of the imperial throne. Willingness to adapt technologies to their own use (gunpowder, for example.) Centuries of constant warfare to hone this attitude. They might lose the first few battles but they would definitely win the war.

 

TPOD and the Seanchan battle is a perfect example of their mentality. In Chap 23, when Jadranka foolishly orders a counter-attack on the Ashaman, Karede cuts his throat and orders the men to fall back. Later, in COT 4, we see he has been promoted to Banner General for his successes against the Ashaman in that battle.,

 

As much as I despise elements of Seanchan culture (the slavery, the damane, the social castes) they would win in the long run unless the entire continent was united against them- including the WT. But the oaths prevent the WT from acting effectively and Aiel are not nearly as adaptable, mentally, as evidenced by the bleakness as well as the nature of the test for Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones. When one of the big tests about your leadership skills is your ability to freaking live through finding out about your people's shameful past....well, that says something about you as a people.

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BTW Regarding the three Oaths... I might have a work around for that. 1 Asha'man and 1 Aes Sedai linked with the Asha'man wielding the flows. Technically the Aes Sedai would be breaking no Oath so it would not only give them an insane amount of more power than either could wield alone (Saidin/Saidar blended into a single weave that no single man or woman could unravel.) but it would stand a good chance of really rebinding the Men and Women together again.

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BTW Regarding the three Oaths... I might have a work around for that. 1 Asha'man and 1 Aes Sedai linked with the Asha'man wielding the flows. Technically the Aes Sedai would be breaking no Oath so it would not only give them an insane amount of more power than either could wield alone (Saidin/Saidar blended into a single weave that no single man or woman could unravel.) but it would stand a good chance of really rebinding the Men and Women together again.

 

If everybody opposes the Seanchan right off the bat than they have a big problem. It wouldn't leave them the time to secure the Seanchan mainland, and the Asha'man in particular would be hell to deal with, because they could essentially infiltrate the Seanchan territories and blow up things at will. The Seanchan have absolutely no way of tracking them, now way to hit back against them. The only thing they can really do is spread out potential targets, maybe set traps for the Asha'man, but even so dealing with male channellers who simply impossible to distinguish from regular people would give the Empress a real headache. They would need to gain their own male channellers, but once again if everybody attacks them right away, they won't really have time to do that.

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BTW Regarding the three Oaths... I might have a work around for that. 1 Asha'man and 1 Aes Sedai linked with the Asha'man wielding the flows. Technically the Aes Sedai would be breaking no Oath so it would not only give them an insane amount of more power than either could wield alone (Saidin/Saidar blended into a single weave that no single man or woman could unravel.) but it would stand a good chance of really rebinding the Men and Women together again.

 

If everybody opposes the Seanchan right off the bat than they have a big problem. It wouldn't leave them the time to secure the Seanchan mainland, and the Asha'man in particular would be hell to deal with, because they could essentially infiltrate the Seanchan territories and blow up things at will. The Seanchan have absolutely no way of tracking them, now way to hit back against them. The only thing they can really do is spread out potential targets, maybe set traps for the Asha'man, but even so dealing with male channellers who simply impossible to distinguish from regular people would give the Empress a real headache. They would need to gain their own male channellers, but once again if everybody attacks them right away, they won't really have time to do that.

 

And the thing is this:

 

Implied from Aviendhas vision, everyone, besides the Aiel, were abiding by the Dragons Peace.

 

One can reasonably assume that anyone who breaks that peace would be anathema to others.

 

A fair guess would be that the war went like this:

 

1, Seanchan smacked around the Aiel for a while and captured a large number of channelers.

 

2. Pact of the Griffin (Probably Andor, Ghealdan, Cairhien, Saldea, Mayene and TR) joins in. The Seanchan slowly but surely advance and obliterate this alliance.

 

3. Other countries and organizations join the fight too late to stop the Seanchan advance (WT, BT, Arad Doman, Illian, maybe Murandy).

 

4. Some countries might be compelled to join the Seanchan (Tear, Far Madding, maybe Murandy).

 

5. Some countries might choose to hold to the Dragons Peace (Kandor, Arafel, Shienar).

 

Obviously this is all speculation, and maybe wild at that, but one thing that needs to be said is that the Aiel have not made friends of the people of Randland. The Cairhienen and Shienaran especially hate the Aiel, making them reluctant to help them. Also, once word got out that the Seanchan were only looking for obliteration of the Aiel, they might find more allies.

 

Finally, their enslavement of the channeling populace would likely be supported given the very large distrust of channelers amongst the people of Randland.

Edited by balefired-ed2

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The Seachan channeler's are hardened weapons. They are like starved and beaten Bulls. They are starved of the power so when they finally get the chance to use the power they don't even care what they end up doing they just drink it in like it is their last meal. Those two things combined make for one incredibly deadly combination. On the other hand, the Aiel wise one's are great warriors, but nothing really in comparison to the Seachan.

 

Really the only match the Seachan have are the Asha'Man. They are basically trained the same way, except the Asha'man are free and not dogs on leashes. I think this will have a very big impact on what Rand does when he learns about the Black Tower and how most of the world's asha'man are now in the hands of the DO. With that revelation mixed with the sacking of the White Tower? The world would have no defense against the Seachan armies. Brute strength vs. Brute strength will always favor the Seachan in the end.

 

The Seachan is the biggest threat to this world that has been created. Far beyond the Chosen if you ask me. The Chosen have not lived up to their reputation in any way, shape or form and they are more like squabbling children then anything.

 

 

Currently as weapons, Asha'man > Seanchan damane. Asha'man training is insanely brutual, they are weapons. Men are much stronger in the Power and individually, they make better weapons than the women...Keep in mind that Asha'man captured Alivia, who is probably as powerful as Lanfear...Alivia is likely the greatest weapon among the damane.

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Currently as weapons, Asha'man > Seanchan damane. Asha'man training is insanely brutual, they are weapons. Men are much stronger in the Power and individually, they make better weapons than the women...Keep in mind that Asha'man captured Alivia, who is probably as powerful as Lanfear...Alivia is likely the greatest weapon among the damane.

Asha'man do not have as much training as damane, and damane have pretty brutal training as well. The biggest thing here is that Asha'man are taught to be stoics while damane are kept emotionally frail--so Asha'man are less likely to fail under pressure, and more likely to easily react to changes in the situation.

 

Also, while men can channel more of the power, women are more deft with weaves. To make a more standard fighting analogy, Asha'man are stronger while Aes Sedai are faster--neither are "better" at fighting, at least not totally.

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Men are stronger with the more destructive powers than women. It is a pretty well established theme in the series that men are better at offense, with the OP or without.

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Men are stronger with the more destructive powers than women. It is a pretty well established theme in the series that men are better at offense, with the OP or without.

Ah, bleh. Forgot the Fire/Earth vs Air/Water thing. In that case, yes, Asha'man will be stronger in fighting--but not simply because they can draw more OP.

 

Edit: It also appears that Asmodean at least thinks that men have it better off, but i don't know how much of an indication that is--i thought the big thing between men and women (as well as other conflicts) in this series are equal and opposite forces?

Edited by TNine

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Men are stronger with the more destructive powers than women. It is a pretty well established theme in the series that men are better at offense, with the OP or without.

Ah, bleh. Forgot the Fire/Earth vs Air/Water thing. In that case, yes, Asha'man will be stronger in fighting--but not simply because they can draw more OP.

 

Edit: It also appears that Asmodean at least thinks that men have it better off, but i don't know how much of an indication that is--i thought the big thing between men and women (as well as other conflicts) in this series are equal and opposite forces?

 

You are correct in that it evens out...

 

RJ

Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree.

 

While strength might give males a small advantage in fighting I've always suspected it isn't as great as some of the male forsaken seem to think.

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As I understood it, women would be more powerful in peacetime activities, their advantages are more along the lines of cooperation than aggression. Men's advantages of stealth channelling and strength are better suited for conflicts such as the end of the AoL or Third Age. Taken as an average, both genders are equal, but in specific circumstances one is better than the other.

 

Of course, blending them together is better still, but if you are separating them I think it holds that an average strength man would kill more trollocs than an average strength woman, everything else being equal.

 

EDIT: You also have to take into consideration that the Forsaken have had a decade of fighting to find out which is best, I think that if the males think they have an advantage they probably do.

Edited by BenevolentCow

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