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I completely disagree, Terez. He clearly is aware that there is a link. Brandons writing hasn't reminded us that Rand remembers there's a link, but that is not difinitive evidence that he is totally unaware. We have clear evidence to the contrary - we just haven't been given a reminder lately.

 

Don't think she is denying Rand knows there is a connection, what he seems unaware of is the implications of the link. He seems to toally ignore it...

 

I'm not sure what he is supposed to do about it other than ignore it? This is where I'm confused with what you and Terez are trying to say here. He is aware of the link clearly, but he doesn't think on it very much or consider that it means anything. We dont know what it means either or if it is important in any way. Why is his lack of thought about the link even worth mentioning?

 

You find it unimportant that Moridin is affecting his thoughts, personality and dreams?! :huh:

 

And vice versa.

 

But you may have answered your own question here. Is Moridin actively preventing Rand from thinking aboout this?

Edited by FarShainMael
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I find it unimportant that BS has not devoted a few sentences to showing how Rand has given thought to Moridin influencing his personality and dreams. I think Rand is aware of the link; he just doesn't care because it doesn't seem to matter very much so far.

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Min's viewing was about Rand and Moridin, not Rand and Lews Therin.
Selling speculation as fact. It’s not clear yet if it meant Lews Therin like Rand seems to think himself, or that it’s Moridin…or in fact Fain. It could still be either one.

 

It's fact because RJ used the exact same language in that viewing as he did when Rand described what it was like, and when it was foreshadowed in TEOTW. It's fact because Lews Therin died 3500 years ago and can't die separate from Rand. It's fact for all sorts of reasons, and you can deny it until you're blue in the face, but I'll put money on it if you will. But you won't, will you?

You'd do well to take some time and try, just once, to read my posts without all the scorn your so obviously feel for me.

It pains me greatly, that someone as brilliant as yourself just can't, or doesn't want to understand me.

There's a difference between understanding and agreeing.

It just baffles me and saddens me, that you scorn my enthousiasm for new views (the Demandred/ Timolan theory) and my own views on the Wheel of Time.

 

You may have missed the point where I said that this Viewing could also very well be about The Dragon Reborn / Moridin, but given Moridin's nature, I think is just slightly less likely. What's so hard about the logic behind that, with me even posting two valid arguments to go along with that? (namely that he's called Death and that even Moridin himself doesn't count himself among the living!)

 

That is the truth of it, Terez.

I don't understand why you take my posts as personal attacks or ignorance.

I'm a master of science... I have a very decent job that combines engineering and product development. I get paid well to do combine creativity and logic.

Please stop trying to paint me a fool/ troll, because you're actually becomming one yourself by doing so.

 

 

(no matter what Rand thinks; he still seems completely unaware of his link with Moridin, despite Moridin telling him about it).
KoD disagrees with you, here.

 

No, it doesn't. Rand knows he can see Moridin in his head, and that's all. He appears to have no idea that they are actually linked, despite Moridin telling him straight out in TGS that they were linked. It never enters his mind. He doesn't know that Moridin is affecting his personality, his thoughts, and even his dreams. He's clueless, just like he was with Lews Therin.

Oh come on, Terez!

You literally write `Rand seems completely unaware of his link with Moridin´. I´m just one of a few who point you to a quote that shows you are clearly wrong here, and you call -me- a troll? So childish, really. You do the very thing you accuse me of. Am I the only one to see the sad, sad irony?

 

Here's some more straight from KoD:

A sudden thought made him grimace. How aware of him was the other man? Ta'veren could be found by their effect on the Pattern, though only the Forsaken knew how. Lews Therin certainly had never mentioned knowing—their "conversations" were always brief, and the man seldom gave information willingly—and nothing had drifted across from him on the subject. At least, Lanfear and Ishamael had known how. but no one had found him that way since they had died. Could this link be used in the same fashion? They could all be in danger. More danger than usual, as if the usual were not enough.

Rand is not 'completely unaware' of the link. He's very much aware of the link actually and considers it a threat that might put them in more danger then he is already aware of.

 

I completely disagree, Terez. He clearly is aware that there is a link. Brandons writing hasn't reminded us that Rand remembers there's a link, but that is not difinitive evidence that he is totally unaware. We have clear evidence to the contrary - we just haven't been given a reminder lately.

Totally agree with Mark here. Edited by Mik
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How is Rand supposed to tell Moridin is in his head? There are what 6-7 people bouncing around in that swiss cheese of a noggin.. one less now that LTT/Rand intergrated? It's pretty damn crowded in there! :rolleyes:

 

KOD Rand was just starting to get hints of what was going on - he can't be expected to understand the all implications at this time, but he has some idea as noted above.

TGS Rand spends most of his chapters in a dissociative fugue

TOM we never get a Rand POV (except in another bizarre, unreleated dream scenario - seriously how does he keep track?)

We get one chapter of AMOL Rand, and he has a lot on his plate at the moment.

 

There is no precedence for this kind of link (AFAIK) in the WOT cosmology... If only a few Randlanders know anything about Taint inspired voices,

and absolutely no one knows a practical solution for said voices, how is Rand supposed to handle something that exponentially more existential?

 

If all you want is a few self referential musing on Rands part about this nebulous link of this concern post-Moridin dream episode, fine, but I fail to see how they

fit in the narrative on the few Rand chapters we have since that point, or really serve any purpose to date given Rand's state of mind in his PoVs. And if you

want Rand to do something about it, or come to some dramatic realization this early... methinks your expectations are a mite (read; ridiculously) high.

Comparing this problem to Egwene and the Seals is unfair

Edited by Damer Sedai
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Rand should have, at the very least, been worried after his conversation with Moridin. But he was only worried that Ishamael was back—he wasn't in the slightest bit worried about the link between them, or anything that Moridin said about it. That's just straight up cluelessness. But the point was not Rand-bashing—just saying, it's consistent not only with how he dealt with Lews Therin's memories, but also with how he dealt with the truth about his parentage pre-taint. It's a bona fide character trait.

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I, for one, have no disagreement with that. In fact, he probably thinks his character changes are him hardening himself and getting colder on purpose and they are to his benefit. He doesn't realize what the link entails. I only had a problem with you saying he wasn't aware of the link.

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Egwene changing her position on the seal front makes me disinclined to believe the ill effects of their bond is currently deviating Rand's decision in DO's favor. But it's definitely a ticking bomb. Whatever happens I can't see it not being an equal trade.

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Rand should have, at the very least, been worried after his conversation with Moridin. But he was only worried that Ishamael was back—he wasn't in the slightest bit worried about the link between them, or anything that Moridin said about it. That's just straight up cluelessness. But the point was not Rand-bashing—just saying, it's consistent not only with how he dealt with Lews Therin's memories, but also with how he dealt with the truth about his parentage pre-taint. It's a bona fide character trait.

 

I guess. I am not accusing you of Rand bashing, I just dont understand why he should realize the full implications like you do, as a dispassionate reader. I agree that Rand does prefer to forge ahead and deal with concrete issues he can address instead of problems to which there is no solution, but I fail to see how that is different for the other leaders in the books (Siuan as Amilryn comes to mind). He does address LTT's memories in the only way he knows how (the steps he takes to cleanse saidin, sadly not nearly enough), and I am not sure how you think she should have dealt with his parentage

 

I am also unsure why you think he should even be taking everything Moridin says in TGS CH15 at face value: In his previous incarnation Ishy as Ba'alzamon slung a lot of BS from EOTW to TDR in Rand's dreams, and a lot of what he says in their conversation in TGS is rambling (Rand thinks he might be insane).

 

After the dream, the POV switches out to Min, and they have plenty to discuss: his confession to Min on how bad it is with LTT for the first time, his new knowledge that Ishamel is alive, and Min's revelation on breaking the seals are plenty to deal with right then and there. We next see him in Ch 22, and he does think on his Dream with Moridin, and what happened in Shadar Logoth, he is wondering if Moridin claiming that this dream connection was different was just another lie. He then proceeds to worry about half a dozen more concrete issues, and then gets slammed with the domination band. There just wasn't much time to think about the implications before they bit him in the ass (via seizing the True Power, I mean)

 

He isnt much for introspection of any type after that, at least until he wandering around the Stone of Tear after everything has gone to crap. And if you think he should have been thinking about the Moridin connection during Veins of Gold.... well... I personally will give him permission to have one transcendent self realization event at a time.

 

Ah well, I guess I understand where you are coming from. Agree to disagree.

Edited by Damer Sedai
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For the record, I argued for many years that Rand would die and stay dead, believing it the appropriate ending. The accumulated foreshadowing convinced me otherwise. I don't have any particular 'pipe dream' for Rand to survive; I just think that's what's going to happen based on the evidence.

This is perhaps the biggest failure in the literary world. After all the buildup of a character and all the adventure it is so easy for authors to kill off their hero rather than write of what happens should they win and live. After all the excitement writing a "happy ever after" ending is greatly difficult. I wouldn't call it a fitting ending. A fitting ending would be along the lines of what I saw someone post a while back. Rand retiring to the Two Rivers, raising a son on a farm and tending sheep much as his father did after being out in the world and riding with the Companions and killing Lamen, sort of bringing it back full circle where the story originated. Of course it is a matter of personal preference and opinion, and in the end, the ending is what RJ has determined. Let's all hope it's as awesome as everyone that has read it is saying.

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For the record, I argued for many years that Rand would die and stay dead, believing it the appropriate ending. The accumulated foreshadowing convinced me otherwise. I don't have any particular 'pipe dream' for Rand to survive; I just think that's what's going to happen based on the evidence.

This is perhaps the biggest failure in the literary world. After all the buildup of a character and all the adventure it is so easy for authors to kill off their hero rather than write of what happens should they win and live. After all the excitement writing a "happy ever after" ending is greatly difficult. I wouldn't call it a fitting ending. A fitting ending would be along the lines of what I saw someone post a while back. Rand retiring to the Two Rivers, raising a son on a farm and tending sheep much as his father did after being out in the world and riding with the Companions and killing Lamen, sort of bringing it back full circle where the story originated. Of course it is a matter of personal preference and opinion, and in the end, the ending is what RJ has determined. Let's all hope it's as awesome as everyone that has read it is saying.

 

I agree with this. It has been foreshadowed in TEOTW that after his adventure is done, he will come back home to the TR. I can't remember exactly where it is in the book but I think it is somewhere during their travels out of the TR. He thinks to himself about returning home no matter how far or long his journey was.

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For the record, I argued for many years that Rand would die and stay dead, believing it the appropriate ending. The accumulated foreshadowing convinced me otherwise. I don't have any particular 'pipe dream' for Rand to survive; I just think that's what's going to happen based on the evidence.

This is perhaps the biggest failure in the literary world. After all the buildup of a character and all the adventure it is so easy for authors to kill off their hero rather than write of what happens should they win and live. After all the excitement writing a "happy ever after" ending is greatly difficult. I wouldn't call it a fitting ending. A fitting ending would be along the lines of what I saw someone post a while back. Rand retiring to the Two Rivers, raising a son on a farm and tending sheep much as his father did after being out in the world and riding with the Companions and killing Lamen, sort of bringing it back full circle where the story originated. Of course it is a matter of personal preference and opinion, and in the end, the ending is what RJ has determined. Let's all hope it's as awesome as everyone that has read it is saying.

 

I agree with this. It has been foreshadowed in TEOTW that after his adventure is done, he will come back home to the TR. I can't remember exactly where it is in the book but I think it is somewhere during their travels out of the TR. He thinks to himself about returning home no matter how far or long his journey was.

 

I think if these books followed every bit of foreshadowing you MIGHT pull from them there would be more contradictions than the bible. Not every half of a sentence that got read throughout will come true.

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Contradictions often arise if you try and meld different interpretations. When you get a contradiction among interpretations it's a sign that at least one of those interpretations is false. You need to seek a consistent set. For example, if Avi's viewing does come to pass, it is not consistent that Rand would hide away in the Westwood and let it all happen without even trying to prevent it. He would have to be TRULY clueless; and it would be a major destruction by the author of the character's credibility.

 

So: Either Avi's viewing is going to be averted, at least partially (it's quite a complex chain of events); or Rand is not going to go away and hide.

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Who says he has to hide? He can still be involved in the world and have a safe haven in the TR. He can Travel. That way if he needs somewhere safe where nobody knows where he is he can go there. That doesn't mean he won't be involved with his kids, just that he won't have to be involved with politics if he doesn't want to be. Unless he gets killed at the LB he has hundreds of years left to live as does Avi and Elayne. So why not go off with Min until she dies and live a quiet life? He could still be involved with his other two women. Besides Elayne might not want him hanging around her children openly for fear of retaliation.

 

I have always felt that if Rand lives he will return to the TR. But that doesn't mean I'm right. Just that maybe my opinion is different from other peoples.

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I got the impression that the Aiel will return to way of the leaf or at least be more peaceful.It seems to me that where they went wrong was joining the fight... Seanchan will no longer collar women who can channel (prologue and 1st chapter of AMOL eaganin is up to something)and that alone will change the future.They may still not get along tho...I also think Rand or his soul will get rewarded with time to enjoy his life after the last battle.

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It think it is important to interpret the possible future of the Aiel in context of the current word. Keep in mind that time is cyclical. I Think that the Aiel aren't given any higher purpose and it is up to them to figure out what their next move is. There is no way they can returnto the Way of the Leaf and maintain an existence that is consistent with the Celtics that they are in our own ancient history. They almost have to continue to have a war with the Seachean if only to foreshadow their later defiance of the Roman empire as the Guals.

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