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But Jesus didn't stick around for very long after his resurrection. He didn't die again but neither did he stay around.

 

I don't think he'll stay around in Randland either—at least, not so far as the vast majority of people are concerned. There will be a few people who know he's alive, but only the important people.

 

But more importantly I really don't see how Jordan's remark about Rand being gone like the wind can possibly apply if he settles to live incognito in the Two Rivers.

 

Because as far as most people are concerned he is gone. The Dragon Reborn is nowhere to be found.

 

I could see that. I don't see him as a man who ignores his children. There are a lot of things wrong with the hanging around and hiding scenario. It works until you see Padra's POV.

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I think an asking of proof might be asking too much without the published work in front of us.

 

All that can be offered is circumstantial evidence. Here is something that made me believe he might certainly live through TG:

 

Pg 1049 ToM (Soft cover) - "People of the Dragon indeed. What is the good of being his people? ...... He used us, then cast us away." There is no mention of him dying and a dead man cannot cast anything away.

 

I do not believe that Aviendha's vision was a true vision of the futue. I think it was more like Egwene's raising to accepted where she saw herself as Amyrlin but not bound to the three oaths. Like that vision, I think there's truth in this one even though the entirety of the vision is not the true future.

 

Obviously, you can disagree.

 

I agree thisguy. However, I think the best view we have of the situation is Padra's view. She sounds like a woman who never knew her Father.

 

The Aiel can be considered cast away because he left with with no direction. He used them for war, left everyone instructions except for the Aiel, and left. That is pretty much casting away a people. It is how you'd treat a broken spear. I think the earliest view is the one where we can get the best idea of what happened to Rand.

I said this in a thread somewhere today - basically, if the ending was written somewhere around the time when RJ wrote the beginning, I expect a Tolkien-esque ending for Rando. And, to be honest, I'm more than happy to see him have it. He'll be healed but weary and screwed up and take off (my guess, through the Portal Stones) at some point. Not right away. He'll spend some time with friends and family. Maybe, even give a few orders, then he's gone like Kaiser Soize.

 

Edit to add - I feel the same way about him and his kids. That might not be a true vision of the future, though.

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I think an asking of proof might be asking too much without the published work in front of us.

 

All that can be offered is circumstantial evidence. Here is something that made me believe he might certainly live through TG:

 

Pg 1049 ToM (Soft cover) - "People of the Dragon indeed. What is the good of being his people? ...... He used us, then cast us away." There is no mention of him dying and a dead man cannot cast anything away.

 

I do not believe that Aviendha's vision was a true vision of the futue. I think it was more like Egwene's raising to accepted where she saw herself as Amyrlin but not bound to the three oaths. Like that vision, I think there's truth in this one even though the entirety of the vision is not the true future.

 

Obviously, you can disagree.

 

I agree thisguy. However, I think the best view we have of the situation is Padra's view. She sounds like a woman who never knew her Father.

 

The Aiel can be considered cast away because he left with with no direction. He used them for war, left everyone instructions except for the Aiel, and left. That is pretty much casting away a people. It is how you'd treat a broken spear. I think the earliest view is the one where we can get the best idea of what happened to Rand.

I said this in a thread somewhere today - basically, if the ending was written somewhere around the time when RJ wrote the beginning, I expect a Tolkien-esque ending for Rando. And, to be honest, I'm more than happy to see him have it. He'll be healed but weary and screwed up and take off (my guess, through the Portal Stones) at some point. Not right away. He'll spend some time with friends and family. Maybe, even give a few orders, then he's gone like Kaiser Soize.

 

Edit to add - I feel the same way about him and his kids. That might not be a true vision of the future, though.

 

From my reading, I believe any instructions he has for the world is going to be given at Merrilor (sp?).

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I think an asking of proof might be asking too much without the published work in front of us.

 

All that can be offered is circumstantial evidence. Here is something that made me believe he might certainly live through TG:

 

Pg 1049 ToM (Soft cover) - "People of the Dragon indeed. What is the good of being his people? ...... He used us, then cast us away." There is no mention of him dying and a dead man cannot cast anything away.

 

I do not believe that Aviendha's vision was a true vision of the futue. I think it was more like Egwene's raising to accepted where she saw herself as Amyrlin but not bound to the three oaths. Like that vision, I think there's truth in this one even though the entirety of the vision is not the true future.

 

Obviously, you can disagree.

 

I agree thisguy. However, I think the best view we have of the situation is Padra's view. She sounds like a woman who never knew her Father.

 

The Aiel can be considered cast away because he left with with no direction. He used them for war, left everyone instructions except for the Aiel, and left. That is pretty much casting away a people. It is how you'd treat a broken spear. I think the earliest view is the one where we can get the best idea of what happened to Rand.

I said this in a thread somewhere today - basically, if the ending was written somewhere around the time when RJ wrote the beginning, I expect a Tolkien-esque ending for Rando. And, to be honest, I'm more than happy to see him have it. He'll be healed but weary and screwed up and take off (my guess, through the Portal Stones) at some point. Not right away. He'll spend some time with friends and family. Maybe, even give a few orders, then he's gone like Kaiser Soize.

 

Edit to add - I feel the same way about him and his kids. That might not be a true vision of the future, though.

 

From my reading, I believe any instructions he has for the world is going to be given at Merrilor (sp?).

I think you have the spelling right. You're probably right, but I wouldn't be surprised if he has some private words for a few people, if he lives.

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would a legit ending be for one of the wise ones stepping into the ter angreal and showing us the future of the world?

 

Also, the only way I would want Rand to live would be if he could still channel. I dont wanna see him burnt out

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Terez, explain your interpretation of the "twice to live, twice to die" line? That is pretty hard evidence he's going to die again after he wins.

 

I don't think so. Assuming you interpret it as two lives and two deaths—which is not necessarily implicit in that prophecy at all—even assuming that, his second death need not happen before the end. The entire prophecy seems to describe what each marking is for, and only one is for the price he must pay.

 

I will admit that him just flat out dying again after he is resurrected would be a flat ending, but I see ZERO CHANCE that he will just survive and retire happily in Randland.

 

Why? There has to be a reason for your assertion that makes sense. It's what he wants, and there is nothing preventing it from happening, except the possibility of the turmoil in the future Aviendha saw, which I honestly think will be resolved. It doesn't mean he has to live in total seclusion; he's free to travel the world using the Mirror of Mists, for himself and Min. He's free to visit his other two women in secrecy. No one has to know he is still alive, and it fits with even the Jesus resurrection, where he only appears to a few select people, his closest friends, and his resurrection is a matter of myth and legend to those who weren't there. It fits with everything we know, both as far as evidence goes and as far as thematic foreshadowing goes.

 

My reason is simply that it won't make logical sense enough to be a thorough ending. The ending has to wrap the major story of Rand up completely. Other characters can be left open ended, but not Rand.

 

Rand is the most powerful channeler to ever live and will live another 600 years minimum after the last battle. Just saying that he happily retires in anonymity leaves far too many possibilities open for readers. His long life span, incredible power, knowledge gained over the course of this whole endeavor (not even counting LTT memories), and skills make a retirement ending far too short of an "ending". For example of how this wont work...anytime anyone discusses the Mat outriggers or the possible wars that will result in the future, etc...any conflict in Randland will result in someone saying "well Rand will just help and end it. If it gets really bad he can do something about it rather than stand aside and watch thousands die." We know what type of person he is and he is the kind that WONT stand by and let so many die if he can do something about it. So given that...its just not feasible to let him remain amongst "mortals" for another 600 years from the perspective of the readers and from the perspective of the story. The story needs a complete ending that leaves nothing open ended with this character, and the readers need an ending that will not allow hypotheticals with the main character to ruin the overal ending given to Randland.

 

Idk, maybe im not very clear on this...but the main point Im trying to make is that him retiring anonymously will be both an unrealistic ending for the person (hes just going to basically be the biggest underachiever ever for 600 years?) and for the story because it will leave too many possible scenarios unresolved regarding the main character.

 

Also - Im not an Aruthur expert...but didn't Arthur return to Avalon or some place at the end? The same way Jesus ascended. Both of those stories result in the hero leaving the mortal realm at the end of this entire thing and I think the same will be with Rand. Somehow he will ascend or leave the mortal realm if he doesn't die again.

 

The more I think about it, the more likely it is that he will return to TAR. The question is going to be if he returns via death or some other method. It's possible that after he is ripped out he will finish his job up and maybe return to TAR with Hawkwing via HoV? Not sure, we dont have much info to go on about this but I think this may actually be the most likely scenario. He stays "dead", everyone feels good that he's going to be OK, world is mostly oblivious to Rand returning aside from rumors, Logain snatches up the glory of defeating the Shadow (as I predicted, I think he will end up taking a lot of the credit from Rand in the end), and the readers and Randland can have an ending without the disastrous consequences of "what-if Rand gets involved".

Edited by Mark D
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Rand's "ending" from the perspective of Randland may not be that he goes to SG and wins vs the Dark One, but it may actually be that he gathered the forces of the light together and united the world against the Shadow. Then died during this cause...he gives his life to unite the Light against the Shadow. Him going to SG after he is killed to finish the DO off may end up being rumors from the perspective of Randland and the way he will be remembered is the guy who sacrificed his life to unite the world to face the Shadow. The actual sealing/dealing with the Dark One credit may go to Logain or to everyone who fought at the end and not really to Rand. Meanwhile, rumors of him being alive after his death and sealing the DO with Callandor will float around. His role is to be the savior of the world; not to be the hero. He doesn't need to get full credit for physically defeating the DO despite what prophecies imply.

 

Besides, he prophecies dont really say that he will defeat the Dark One, do they? They only say that he will die to wash away the Shadow, etc. His job literally seems to be to unite the Light and die doing so.

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I don't have a guess as to whether Rand will be around after TG or not, but I wouldn't compare it to Jesus if he does, and stays in disguise. To me it would be more a thing like Muad'Dib; go in to hiding but still keep an eye on things.

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I don't have a guess as to whether Rand will be around after TG or not, but I wouldn't compare it to Jesus if he does, and stays in disguise. To me it would be more a thing like Muad'Dib; go in to hiding but still keep an eye on things.

 

I would have agreed with that possibility before TOM. Not now, not after reading Padra's POV. It likely gave us our only glimpse into the future after TG.

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91 days remaining until you find out, but only if you're willing to jump directly to the end of the book.

 

It isn't worth the jump to me. Not even if the entire book is awful. I want to know how it gets to where it ends.

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My reason is simply that it won't make logical sense enough to be a thorough ending. The ending has to wrap the major story of Rand up completely. Other characters can be left open ended, but not Rand.

 

I disagree; I think you're projecting a lot of out-of-character expectations onto Rand. RJ wants to leave the possibilities open for us—he said that many times, and that he hates books where everything is wrapped up at the end—but it's easy enough to make it clear that Rand doesn't plan to lead a public life in any way. The 4th Age writings make that clear enough on their own.

 

For example of how this wont work...anytime anyone discusses the Mat outriggers or the possible wars that will result in the future, etc...any conflict in Randland will result in someone saying "well Rand will just help and end it.

 

Why would he have any interest in helping reclaim Seanchan? That doesn't make any sense. Why would his help be so much more valuable than that of other Asha'man and Aes Sedai anyway?

 

So given that...its just not feasible to let him remain amongst "mortals" for another 600 years from the perspective of the readers and from the perspective of the story.

 

It's perfectly feasible, if you're not projecting unfounded expectations onto him. Part of the problem is the Aviendha vision. I don't put too much stock into that one when it comes to predicting the future; from the way it was written, it's almost inevitable that it will be a major logical fail on several levels, not least how certain prophecies were fulfilled in that future.

 

The story needs a complete ending that leaves nothing open ended with this character...

 

RJ has said multiple times that readers expecting everything to be neat and tidy at the end of the story are going to be disappointed.

 

The more I think about it, the more likely it is that he will return to TAR. The question is going to be if he returns via death or some other method. It's possible that after he is ripped out he will finish his job up and maybe return to TAR with Hawkwing via HoV? Not sure, we dont have much info to go on about this but I think this may actually be the most likely scenario. He stays "dead", everyone feels good that he's going to be OK, world is mostly oblivious to Rand returning aside from rumors...

 

The Aelfinn said he would survive the Last Battle, so that's not going to happen.

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My reason is simply that it won't make logical sense enough to be a thorough ending. The ending has to wrap the major story of Rand up completely. Other characters can be left open ended, but not Rand.

 

I disagree; I think you're projecting a lot of out-of-character expectations onto Rand. RJ wants to leave the possibilities open for us—he said that many times, and that he hates books where everything is wrapped up at the end—but it's easy enough to make it clear that Rand doesn't plan to lead a public life in any way. The 4th Age writings make that clear enough on their own.

 

For example of how this wont work...anytime anyone discusses the Mat outriggers or the possible wars that will result in the future, etc...any conflict in Randland will result in someone saying "well Rand will just help and end it.

 

Why would he have any interest in helping reclaim Seanchan? That doesn't make any sense. Why would his help be so much more valuable than that of other Asha'man and Aes Sedai anyway?

 

So given that...its just not feasible to let him remain amongst "mortals" for another 600 years from the perspective of the readers and from the perspective of the story.

 

It's perfectly feasible, if you're not projecting unfounded expectations onto him. Part of the problem is the Aviendha vision. I don't put too much stock into that one when it comes to predicting the future; from the way it was written, it's almost inevitable that it will be a major logical fail on several levels, not least how certain prophecies were fulfilled in that future.

 

The story needs a complete ending that leaves nothing open ended with this character...

 

RJ has said multiple times that readers expecting everything to be neat and tidy at the end of the story are going to be disappointed.

 

The more I think about it, the more likely it is that he will return to TAR. The question is going to be if he returns via death or some other method. It's possible that after he is ripped out he will finish his job up and maybe return to TAR with Hawkwing via HoV? Not sure, we dont have much info to go on about this but I think this may actually be the most likely scenario. He stays "dead", everyone feels good that he's going to be OK, world is mostly oblivious to Rand returning aside from rumors...

 

The Aelfinn said he would survive the Last Battle, so that's not going to happen.

 

The Finn said no such thing. They said to survive he must die. It doesn't say anything about immediate survival. How can you end an eternal soul? By ending the source of his immortality. It is just as reasonable to say that that was their intention. Was it? I don't know, but I lean in that direction.

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He said 'How do I survive The Last Battle?' That means he'll survive the Last Battle...after he dies, and is resurrected. The Nicola Foretelling makes it even more clear that his survival is not some kind of vague reference to him being reborn again.

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Also Terez, while I don't see the logical flaws in Avi's vision, I think they are possible futures. Nonetheless, I believe Rand's presence, or lack thereof, in those vision's are accurate. I think he either succeeds or fails. I don't think there is a middle ground there. The question is what actually happens upon success.

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He said 'How do I survive The Last Battle?' That means he'll survive the Last Battle...after he dies, and is resurrected. The Nicola Foretelling makes it even more clear that his survival is not some kind of vague reference to him being reborn again.

 

Nicola's vision makes it seem like he'll die prior to TG. That makes it worse on the theory.

 

He did ask that, and they answered. You take it literally and directly. If he fails to win the last battle, he will never live again. I take it as a whole.

 

Also, that prophecies fulfillment could be explained in ACoS Chapter 33. Min tells him of her viewing of two men merging and one of them dying. That ties in neatly to "The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. To live, you must die."

 

Do I really think this? No. However, it fits just as well.

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I completely disagree. I used to hope for Rand to live. I was certain Min was going to find a way. However, everything in the last 4 books points to a world without Rand, not a world with Rand.

 

1. His connection to Moridin gives him access to the TP, which will likely be required for him to use in order to buffer Saidin and Saidar from the taint.

 

2. Nynaeve even says everything short of death should be something she can heal.

 

3. Prophecies talk of one that comes after Rand.

 

4. His answer from the Finn's is likely their way of saying if he fails, the wheel will never spit him out again. They give cheap answers.

 

5. He MAY be resurrected in the book's, but even Avi's viewings of the future show a world without Rand's presence. If you focus on Padra's viewing, it is plainly obvious. He will die again. The answer to the viewing isn't Rand's survival, it is Rand giving a purpose to the Aiel. Instead of using them for war and leaving them on their own ("discarding them like a broken spear").

 

 

It pointed to a world where Rand wasn't "around." Doesn't mean he's dead. Just means he's not involved :)

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You can believe whatever you want; that doesn't make it logical.

 

How is it not logical? Is it due to the fact that it throws a wrench in a theory? Or is there another reason?

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He said 'How do I survive The Last Battle?' That means he'll survive the Last Battle...after he dies, and is resurrected. The Nicola Foretelling makes it even more clear that his survival is not some kind of vague reference to him being reborn again.

 

Nicola's vision makes it seem like he'll die prior to TG.

 

Which is what we have been saying all along. He dies to sever the link with Moridin; he's resurrected to finish the job.

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I completely disagree. I used to hope for Rand to live. I was certain Min was going to find a way. However, everything in the last 4 books points to a world without Rand, not a world with Rand.

 

1. His connection to Moridin gives him access to the TP, which will likely be required for him to use in order to buffer Saidin and Saidar from the taint.

 

2. Nynaeve even says everything short of death should be something she can heal.

 

3. Prophecies talk of one that comes after Rand.

 

4. His answer from the Finn's is likely their way of saying if he fails, the wheel will never spit him out again. They give cheap answers.

 

5. He MAY be resurrected in the book's, but even Avi's viewings of the future show a world without Rand's presence. If you focus on Padra's viewing, it is plainly obvious. He will die again. The answer to the viewing isn't Rand's survival, it is Rand giving a purpose to the Aiel. Instead of using them for war and leaving them on their own ("discarding them like a broken spear").

 

 

It pointed to a world where Rand wasn't "around." Doesn't mean he's dead. Just means he's not involved :)

 

Good catch South, but it still leaves the problem of his children not knowing him in Avi's vision.

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He said 'How do I survive The Last Battle?' That means he'll survive the Last Battle...after he dies, and is resurrected. The Nicola Foretelling makes it even more clear that his survival is not some kind of vague reference to him being reborn again.

 

Nicola's vision makes it seem like he'll die prior to TG.

 

Which is what we have been saying all along. He dies to sever the link with Moridin; he's resurrected to finish the job.

 

I never said he wouldn't be resurrected. I don't think he'll survive the Last Battle.

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You can believe whatever you want; that doesn't make it logical.

 

How is it not logical? Is it due to the fact that it throws a wrench in a theory? Or is there another reason?

 

Of course there's a reason—it's incredibly clear that Aviendha is going to change that future, and it's impossible to argue that any given circumstance will be the same. By its very nature, it doesn't throw wrenches in very many theories at all.

 

PS—Quitting this thread, which has been (as predicted) a complete waste of time.

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I completely disagree. I used to hope for Rand to live. I was certain Min was going to find a way. However, everything in the last 4 books points to a world without Rand, not a world with Rand.

 

1. His connection to Moridin gives him access to the TP, which will likely be required for him to use in order to buffer Saidin and Saidar from the taint.

 

2. Nynaeve even says everything short of death should be something she can heal.

 

3. Prophecies talk of one that comes after Rand.

 

4. His answer from the Finn's is likely their way of saying if he fails, the wheel will never spit him out again. They give cheap answers.

 

5. He MAY be resurrected in the book's, but even Avi's viewings of the future show a world without Rand's presence. If you focus on Padra's viewing, it is plainly obvious. He will die again. The answer to the viewing isn't Rand's survival, it is Rand giving a purpose to the Aiel. Instead of using them for war and leaving them on their own ("discarding them like a broken spear").

 

 

It pointed to a world where Rand wasn't "around." Doesn't mean he's dead. Just means he's not involved :)

 

Good catch South, but it still leaves the problem of his children not knowing him in Avi's vision.

 

 

Rand has always reminisced about his times with Tam as a sheepherder. Him living in deep seclusion would fit with what he has wanted to return back to for awhile now so that could mean staying away from everything and everyone.

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