Is Demandred a false Dragon?

[TLHansum]

When i was reading the early books of the series, i remember them mentioning that the pattern was 'trying to spin out the dragon' before Rand was born, and thats why we have all these guys that turned out to be false dragons. And then when Rand declared, two false Dragons both fell off their horses at the same time and were captured.

 

So if the pattern was trying to push out Dragons for Rand, would it have been doing the same for LTT? If so, it makes sense that Demandred would be a false Dragon. He's mentioned as everything LTT was, just a smidgen less.

 

Barid Bel Medar is born one day after Lews Therin. When Lews Therin is appointed leader, he turns to the Shadow because he despises the man he considers his inferior. (LoC,Prologue)

 

Suddenly realizing these posts look a lot better with quotes. Trying to find more quotes :P

[Hagazussa]

When i was reading the early books of the series, i remember them mentioning that the pattern was 'trying to spin out the dragon' before Rand was born, and thats why we have all these guys that turned out to be false dragons. And then when Rand declared, two false Dragons both fell off their horses at the same time and were captured.

 

So if the pattern was trying to push out Dragons for Rand, would it have been doing the same for LTT? If so, it makes sense that Demandred would be a false Dragon. He's mentioned as everything LTT was, just a smidgen less.

 

I think most of the time a man who can channel declare himself Dragon and find himself an army it have more to do with him being caught between a rock and a hard place and deciding that if he is going out he might as well try to do so in a blaze of glory, after all future aspects of a male channeler is not that great, others might just do it, both channelers and regular people, just to try to get fame, fortune and glory. By definition a false Dragon have to declare himself and start to gather his forces or at least try to or he is not a false Dragon.

 

When it comes to the wheel trying to spin out the dragon, well it is possible that Demandred was such an failed attempt, but he is not a false Dragon for he have never declared himself to be so, he know he is not.

[Barid Bel Medar]

"Dragon" was the title Lews Therin recieved as the leader against the Shadow. "Dragon" was not a prophetic postition then.

 

"False Dragon" refers to someone who declares themselves as Lews Therin reborn, the prophetic figure who will defeat the DO at TG. It is only a valid term for the 3rd age.

 

Lews Therin wasn't known as a Champion of Light, he was merely the man who was elected to lead.

 

With the Dragon Reborn, the Pattern needed a specific person, Lews Therin Reborn. once Rand declared himself so, the false Dragon's were denounced. The Dragon Reborn is a force dependant on prophecy. It says he will defeat the Shadow. Thus, there is no room for dispute. The Pattern needed the world to acknowledge the true DR.

 

It doesn't apply in the AoL, things happened far differently. They knew nothing about the Shadow, and someone declaring themselves "Dragon" wouldn't mean anything to people. Lews Therin didn't gain his position because it was in prophecy, he was the man who people thought were best. (The Pattern probably had a hand in that as well)

 

Demandred thought he should lead people, to be elected as the leader over the forces of Light, however, that was just because he thought he would do better. Nothing to do with the position as "Dragon".

 

Also, Demandred didn't go over when LTT was appointed "Dragon". He went over 3 years into the war, because he thought they were bound to lose under LTT leadership.

[Crisapx]

LTT was the original dragon, the therm didn't exist until he was named Dragon.

 

And only after did the name Dragon became a part of the prophecy.

[shortkut]

I think it is obvious the poster meant champion of light instead of dragon

[TLHansum]

I think it is obvious the poster meant champion of light instead of dragon

 

Aye. An attempt by the pattern to spin out a CoL that failed, much like Logain, Taim, and the False Dragons were.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think it is obvious the poster meant champion of light instead of dragon

 

Aye. An attempt by the pattern to spin out a CoL that failed, much like Logain, Taim, and the False Dragons were.

 

I am not sure what you mean by "failed" here, so forgive me if I don't answer your question.

 

The False Dragon's (specifically Taim and Logain) were never intended to be the CoT. Rand was always destined to be the CoL - at least in this age.

 

The False Dragon's had specific purposes in the Pattern.

 

Guaire Amasalan was spun out to provide a stepping stone for Hawkwing to rise to power.

 

Taim and Logain were spun out to provide a "cover" for Rand - the Real Dragon. Once he had declared himself, there was no need for them to pretend, so they were taken down. (they also may have other destinies, we shall see)

 

So I don't think Demandred was ever going to be CoL, it was pretty certain to be LTT.

 

We also have this:

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 22nd, 2011

Alloy of Law Signing Report - Zombie Sammael (Paraphrased)

 

ZOMBIE SAMMAEL

In The Gathering Storm Graendal thinks that Demandred had a shot at being the Dragon. What we were wondering was whether this refers to the soul itself or to the title Dragon, and if the title is tied to the soul.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Brandon then said (quite excitingly IMO) that it actually went further than that, and if perhaps Rand had died whether someone else would have taken over that role.

ZOMBIE SAMMAEL

If that had happened, would that person be called Dragon?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I'll give you this: there was no chance of Demandred ever being Dragon.

ZOMBIE SAMMAEL

Ah, that's a bit similar to the answer you gave before. But if not Demandred, somebody else?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Maybe.

[shortkut]

I think it is obvious the poster meant champion of light instead of dragon

 

Aye. An attempt by the pattern to spin out a CoL that failed, much like Logain, Taim, and the False Dragons were.

not a failed attempt. RJ said had ltt died the pattern would have had someone else step up. Maybe demandred would have been that person had ltt died or said screw it or went dark

[XXX]

Logain was taken down before Rand declared.Only Taim fell from his horse at the time of Rand's appearance in the skies.

[Suttree]

Logain was taken down before Rand declared.Only Taim fell from his horse at the time of Rand's appearance in the skies.

 

There was another false dragon that fell. Not Logain but some other guy in Haddon Mirk.

[Amandera]

INTERVIEW: Nov 22nd, 2011

Alloy of Law Signing Report - Zombie Sammael (Paraphrased)

 

ZOMBIE SAMMAEL

In The Gathering Storm Graendal thinks that Demandred had a shot at being the Dragon. What we were wondering was whether this refers to the soul itself or to the title Dragon, and if the title is tied to the soul.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Brandon then said (quite excitingly IMO) that it actually went further than that, and if perhaps Rand had died whether someone else would have taken over that role.

ZOMBIE SAMMAEL

If that had happened, would that person be called Dragon?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I'll give you this: there was no chance of Demandred ever being Dragon.

ZOMBIE SAMMAEL

Ah, that's a bit similar to the answer you gave before. But if not Demandred, somebody else?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Maybe.

Does anyone have a theory how this is possible? I thought this meant Rand's soul is always born as Dragon in the 2nd Age and Dragon Reborn in the 3rd Age. Am I wrong? If not, I understand someone would have to carry on with the Dragon's job but how can that person be called 'the Dragon'? From my point of view, Rand/LTT is the Dragon and the Dragon is Rand/LTT.

[Barid Bel Medar]

the "Dragon Soul" is Rand. He is always spun out to do this.

 

However, the pattern has backup plans, for lesser victories. It requires the Dragon to do things properly, however, there are degrees of victory. These people don't take the "Dragon's" place, but they stop the Shadow from winning fully.

 

Also, there are battles where another soul is the champion. The Dragon doesn't save everyone every time, in other ages, other enemies, another soul can be the hero.

[Suttree]

the "Dragon Soul" is Rand. He is always spun out to do this.

 

However, the pattern has backup plans, for lesser victories. It requires the Dragon to do things properly, however, there are degrees of victory. These people don't take the "Dragon's" place, but they stop the Shadow from winning fully.

 

Also, there are battles where another soul is the champion. The Dragon doesn't save everyone every time, in other ages, other enemies, another soul can be the hero.

 

Indeed...the "Dragon Soul" is designated for when there is a need to face the DO and there can be "degrees of victory" on both sides.

[Amandera]

I get that. But BS's answer to the question "Can someone else be called Dragon?" is "Maybe". Dragon Soul is Rand as you say, so how can somebody else maybe be called the Dragon? If Rand dies early on in AMoL and Logain rises to be the Champion, can he be called the Dragon? I'm talking about the possibility.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I get that. But BS's answer to the question "Can someone else be called Dragon?" is "Maybe". Dragon Soul is Rand as you say, so how can somebody else maybe be called the Dragon? If Rand dies early on in AMoL and Logain rises to be the Champion, can he be called the Dragon? I'm talking about the possibility.

 

The "Dragon" is a title, not the name of the soul.

 

Someone else could have been named the "Dragon" in the AoL. The "Dragon" was given to the man who commanded the forces of Light.

 

Similarly, Rand being the "Dragon Reborn", someone else could take up the title. The would not be able to do what Rand's soul does.

 

I use the "Dragon Soul" as a easy way of explaining it, but "Dragon" is no more than a title used in the AoL.

[Amandera]

I figured the title was attached to the soul, that the Pattern would always force that title to that specific soul, even in previous or next 2nd/3rd Ages. So that's where I'm wrong I guess.