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What was RJ's plan for Graendal?


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But the entirety felt cheap and contrived. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Egwene and Mesaana having a showdown in TAR was in Jim's notes, but I doubt any of the rest of it was.

Additional evidence for this can be found in the Perrin Egwene snafu. Brandon needed to make Perrin cool, so we ended up with him being able to ignore Egwene's twisting of TAR. Predictably, the fan base concluded Perrin was better than Egwene in TAR. Then Brandon had to backtrack and give a lame excuse for the event by saying Egwene was better at planning and strategizing!

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Btw, are we 100% certain that Graendal was killed and resurrected - is there any other way for the DO to have Haeffalumped her? It's a very rapid turnaround, considering that it took 4 books to bring back Aginor and Balthamel, and at least a couple of books each for Ishamael and Lanfear.

 

Another possiblity is that Moridin placed an inverted weave on her, like the one Rand used when he visited Elayne in Winter's Heart.

 

Unthinking, he ran a hand across his jaw, feeling his own face, but that was not what Min saw. Anyone looking at him would see a man inches shorter and years older than Rand al’Thor, with lank black hair, dull brown eyes and a wart on his bulbous nose. Only someone who touched him could pierce the Mask of Mirrors. Even an Asha’man would not see it, with the weaves inverted.

 

That would be a much lighter punishment for Graendal, but aside from the time it would take to resurrect her, Moridin might prefer to use the prospect of getting her old appearance back as a carrot to make Graendal strive to get back into his good graces. Either way, the Graeffalump look is probably there to stay for the remainder of AMoL so that Graendal will look more like her namesake.

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If her name really is a hint at the source of the future legend, then RJ probably planned for her to be Graeffalumped all along. The witch with the difficult to penetrate hideout becoming a hideous monster is not that far from a witch with a difficult to penetrate hideout giving birth to a hideous monster.

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But the entirety felt cheap and contrived. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Egwene and Mesaana having a showdown in TAR was in Jim's notes, but I doubt any of the rest of it was.

Additional evidence for this can be found in the Perrin Egwene snafu. Brandon needed to make Perrin cool, so we ended up with him being able to ignore Egwene's twisting of TAR. Predictably, the fan base concluded Perrin was better than Egwene in TAR. Then Brandon had to backtrack and give a lame excuse for the event by saying Egwene was better at planning and strategizing!

 

It's a pity BS did that, I don't see that Perrin being better than Eg was necessarily a logical conclusion - Eg didn't try to hold him in place, she created the bonds and then left it. As such he didn't have to exert his will against hers, just reject something that she'd brought into the dream. The balefire was more to do with Perrins ignorance than his being stronger than Eg, she believes that balefire is unstoppable, Perrin viewed it as a weave. For me the stupidity bit comes from how Eg ever thought that tying up a friend and leaving him helpless (what she thought at the time) in the middle of a battle would ever be a good idea.

 

Hmm, don't know if I would say cringeworthy, but definitely not the best.

 

It is surprising really. I thought that the Perrin-Slayer dream battle sequences were done rather well, but the AS fight was rather dull in comparison.

 

I stole the cringe from you, lol.

 

But I liked neither side. Brandon wanted some sort of Matrixy moment, and clearly spent more time on Perrin--you're right his is more developed, though the wolves teaching him to do what Dreamwalkers do in their jumps despite the Wolf Dream always having a more physical aspect, akin to that of being present in the flesh, which even on Dreamwalkers maintains that influence, was problematic for me in that it jarred the sense of metaphysical integrity.

 

But the entirety felt cheap and contrived. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Egwene and Mesaana having a showdown in TAR was in Jim's notes, but I doubt any of the rest of it was.

 

Where does the information come from that says Perrin enters in a more physical aspect? In tDR Hopper tells Perrin that he's come to strongly as a result of the hedehog ter'rangreal. I've always taked that to mean that most of the time he enters in a way similar to that of a Dreamwalker, so surely the abilitys would be similar?

 

It's not like I hate the sequence, as I said earlier I just don't like T'A'R stuff all that much. It seems to be a bit too much of "whatever the plot needs".

 

I know what you mean, I've been waiting for a Disneys Sword in the Stone style sequence with dragons and germs and shapeshifting...

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But the entirety felt cheap and contrived. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Egwene and Mesaana having a showdown in TAR was in Jim's notes, but I doubt any of the rest of it was.

Additional evidence for this can be found in the Perrin Egwene snafu. Brandon needed to make Perrin cool, so we ended up with him being able to ignore Egwene's twisting of TAR. Predictably, the fan base concluded Perrin was better than Egwene in TAR. Then Brandon had to backtrack and give a lame excuse for the event by saying Egwene was better at planning and strategizing!

 

It's a pity BS did that, I don't see that Perrin being better than Eg was necessarily a logical conclusion - Eg didn't try to hold him in place, she created the bonds and then left it. As such he didn't have to exert his will against hers, just reject something that she'd brought into the dream. The balefire was more to do with Perrins ignorance than his being stronger than Eg, she believes that balefire is unstoppable, Perrin viewed it as a weave. For me the stupidity bit comes from how Eg ever thought that tying up a friend and leaving him helpless (what she thought at the time) in the middle of a battle would ever be a good idea.

 

Hmm, don't know if I would say cringeworthy, but definitely not the best.

 

It is surprising really. I thought that the Perrin-Slayer dream battle sequences were done rather well, but the AS fight was rather dull in comparison.

 

I stole the cringe from you, lol.

 

But I liked neither side. Brandon wanted some sort of Matrixy moment, and clearly spent more time on Perrin--you're right his is more developed, though the wolves teaching him to do what Dreamwalkers do in their jumps despite the Wolf Dream always having a more physical aspect, akin to that of being present in the flesh, which even on Dreamwalkers maintains that influence, was problematic for me in that it jarred the sense of metaphysical integrity.

 

But the entirety felt cheap and contrived. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Egwene and Mesaana having a showdown in TAR was in Jim's notes, but I doubt any of the rest of it was.

 

Where does the information come from that says Perrin enters in a more physical aspect? In tDR Hopper tells Perrin that he's come to strongly as a result of the hedehog ter'rangreal. I've always taked that to mean that most of the time he enters in a way similar to that of a Dreamwalker, so surely the abilitys would be similar?

Throughout the books Hopper tells him he comes too strongly into TAR. In ToM, Perrin realizes that has something to do with him - his focus is part of the problem - overly focused

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Where does the information come from that says Perrin enters in a more physical aspect? In tDR Hopper tells Perrin that he's come to strongly as a result of the hedehog ter'rangreal. I've always taked that to mean that most of the time he enters in a way similar to that of a Dreamwalker, so surely the abilitys would be similar?

Throughout the books Hopper tells him he comes too strongly into TAR. In ToM, Perrin realizes that has something to do with him - his focus is part of the problem - overly focused

 

Fair point, but even then there seem to be grades of it - in tDR he was close to dying because of it, I don't remember another incidence of him going in that strongly again. But I'm only up to LoC in my reread, and my brain hasn't remembered Perrins storyline after tSR very well. And at no point (that I remember) has he physically gone into the dream. When Rand goes into the dream, in the flesh, I always thought that Rands physical body entered the dream (edit - and disappeared from real life, as Egs did when she went to Salidar), that doesn't happen to Perrin.

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Where does the information come from that says Perrin enters in a more physical aspect? In tDR Hopper tells Perrin that he's come to strongly as a result of the hedehog ter'rangreal. I've always taked that to mean that most of the time he enters in a way similar to that of a Dreamwalker, so surely the abilitys would be similar?

Throughout the books Hopper tells him he comes too strongly into TAR. In ToM, Perrin realizes that has something to do with him - his focus is part of the problem - overly focused

 

Fair point, but even then there seem to be grades of it - in tDR he was close to dying because of it, I don't remember another incidence of him going in that strongly again. But I'm only up to LoC in my reread, and my brain hasn't remembered Perrins storyline after tSR very well. And at no point (that I remember) has he physically gone into the dream. When Rand goes into the dream, in the flesh, I always thought that Rands physical body entered the dream (edit - and disappeared from real life, as Egs did when she went to Salidar), that doesn't happen to Perrin.

Trust me, I didn't remember a lot of detail before my reread. I'm more than half done with ToM, Hopper tells him all the time "Young Bull, you come too strongly."

 

I'm going to shut up because this is a family environment, what I wrote just made me laugh.

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Of course, this creates another problem - that Elayne somehow perfected this process offscreen and while the original ring is with Aviendha, which seems very implausible given how busy she has been and the channelling problems due to the pregnancy.

 

A third problem is that Aviendha was probably given the ring for a specific reason. When characters are given things (Nynaeve and Lan's ring, Mat and the ashandarei), they often end up using them in some important way. Why did RJ place the original ring with Aviendha?

 

One possibility is that it would explain or at least throw some doubt on Aviendha's experiences in Rhuidean. Remember how Verin's ring interacted with the ter'angreal during Egwene's Accepted test. When Egwene first arrived, Alanna noticed a slight resonance that quickly disappeared again.

 

Beside the ter’angreal, Alanna suddenly spoke. “There is some sort of—resonance.” She never took her eyes from the arches. “An echo, almost. I do not know from where.”

“Is there a problem?” Sheriam asked sharply. [...]

“No,” Alanna said. “It is like having a biteme buzz ’round your head when you’re trying to think, but it does not interfere. I would not have mentioned it, only it has never happened before that I ever heard.” She shook her head. “It is gone now.”

 

But nothing actually happened until Egwene went into the third arch which dealt with the future. At that point, the resonance came back 'ten thousandfold' and the Accepted ter'angreal flipped out completely.

 

The ter’angreal hummed, almost vibrated, and violent streaks of color tore the white light inside the arches. [...]

 

“Child, I should have stopped this when I had the chance, when I first noticed that—reverberation. It came back. That is what happened. It came back a thousandfold. Ten thousand. The ter’angreal almost seemed to be trying to shut off the flow from saidar—or melt itself through the floor.” [...]

 

“The only time I have ever seen anything like it was once years ago when we tried to use a ter’angreal in the same room with another that may have been in some way related to it. It is extremely rare to find two such as that. The pair of them melted, and every sister within a hundred paces had such a headache for a week that she couldn’t channel a spark. What’s the matter, child?” Egwene’s hand had tightened around her pouch till the twisted stone ring impressed itself on her palm through the thick cloth. Was it warm? Light, I did it myself.

 

So if Aviendha wore Verin's ring when she met Nakomi and used another ter'angreal which dealt with the future, those visions not might be altogether reliable or linked to T'A'R in some way.

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Where does the information come from that says Perrin enters in a more physical aspect? In tDR Hopper tells Perrin that he's come to strongly as a result of the hedehog ter'rangreal. I've always taked that to mean that most of the time he enters in a way similar to that of a Dreamwalker, so surely the abilitys would be similar?

Throughout the books Hopper tells him he comes too strongly into TAR. In ToM, Perrin realizes that has something to do with him - his focus is part of the problem - overly focused

 

Fair point, but even then there seem to be grades of it - in tDR he was close to dying because of it, I don't remember another incidence of him going in that strongly again. But I'm only up to LoC in my reread, and my brain hasn't remembered Perrins storyline after tSR very well. And at no point (that I remember) has he physically gone into the dream. When Rand goes into the dream, in the flesh, I always thought that Rands physical body entered the dream (edit - and disappeared from real life, as Egs did when she went to Salidar), that doesn't happen to Perrin.

Trust me, I didn't remember a lot of detail before my reread. I'm more than half done with ToM, Hopper tells him all the time "Young Bull, you come too strongly."

 

I'm going to shut up because this is a family environment, what I wrote just made me laugh.

 

ROFL

 

I didn't mean to imply I didn't believe you about what Hopper says, I just meant that I guess it comes down to how strongly a wolf-brother can enter TAR compared to a channeler going in the flesh.

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Where does the information come from that says Perrin enters in a more physical aspect? In tDR Hopper tells Perrin that he's come to strongly as a result of the hedehog ter'rangreal. I've always taked that to mean that most of the time he enters in a way similar to that of a Dreamwalker, so surely the abilitys would be similar?

Throughout the books Hopper tells him he comes too strongly into TAR. In ToM, Perrin realizes that has something to do with him - his focus is part of the problem - overly focused

 

Fair point, but even then there seem to be grades of it - in tDR he was close to dying because of it, I don't remember another incidence of him going in that strongly again. But I'm only up to LoC in my reread, and my brain hasn't remembered Perrins storyline after tSR very well. And at no point (that I remember) has he physically gone into the dream. When Rand goes into the dream, in the flesh, I always thought that Rands physical body entered the dream (edit - and disappeared from real life, as Egs did when she went to Salidar), that doesn't happen to Perrin.

Trust me, I didn't remember a lot of detail before my reread. I'm more than half done with ToM, Hopper tells him all the time "Young Bull, you come too strongly."

 

I'm going to shut up because this is a family environment, what I wrote just made me laugh.

 

ROFL

 

I didn't mean to imply I didn't believe you about what Hopper says, I just meant that I guess it comes down to how strongly a wolf-brother can enter TAR compared to a channeler going in the flesh.

;)

 

I see. I agree, too. In ToM, either Hopper tells Perrin or Perrin figures that wolf brothers are both wolves and men - a little of both. Since wolves naturally go to TAR when they die, it's their natural element. Makes sense that a wolf brother would have the potential to be very powerful in TAR - perhaps, moreso than your average dreamwalker.

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If her name really is a hint at the source of the future legend, then RJ probably planned for her to be Graeffalumped all along. The witch with the difficult to penetrate hideout becoming a hideous monster is not that far from a witch with a difficult to penetrate hideout giving birth to a hideous monster.

 

Ooh, that's a good point! I'm not sure that she's quite hideous enough, but still, that would be very clever indeed...

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Where does the information come from that says Perrin enters in a more physical aspect? In tDR Hopper tells Perrin that he's come to strongly as a result of the hedehog ter'rangreal. I've always taked that to mean that most of the time he enters in a way similar to that of a Dreamwalker, so surely the abilitys would be similar?

Throughout the books Hopper tells him he comes too strongly into TAR. In ToM, Perrin realizes that has something to do with him - his focus is part of the problem - overly focused

 

Fair point, but even then there seem to be grades of it - in tDR he was close to dying because of it, I don't remember another incidence of him going in that strongly again. But I'm only up to LoC in my reread, and my brain hasn't remembered Perrins storyline after tSR very well. And at no point (that I remember) has he physically gone into the dream. When Rand goes into the dream, in the flesh, I always thought that Rands physical body entered the dream (edit - and disappeared from real life, as Egs did when she went to Salidar), that doesn't happen to Perrin.

Trust me, I didn't remember a lot of detail before my reread. I'm more than half done with ToM, Hopper tells him all the time "Young Bull, you come too strongly."

 

I'm going to shut up because this is a family environment, what I wrote just made me laugh.

 

ROFL

 

I didn't mean to imply I didn't believe you about what Hopper says, I just meant that I guess it comes down to how strongly a wolf-brother can enter TAR compared to a channeler going in the flesh.

;)

 

I see. I agree, too. In ToM, either Hopper tells Perrin or Perrin figures that wolf brothers are both wolves and men - a little of both. Since wolves naturally go to TAR when they die, it's their natural element. Makes sense that a wolf brother would have the potential to be very powerful in TAR - perhaps, moreso than your average dreamwalker.

 

Actually I think I remember that bit - possibly because I had to reread it so many times to assure myself that that particular arc was over :) Although I quite liked the Perrin vs. WC arc (puts me in the minority I know) I grew increasingly fed-up of Perrin CoS - tGS.

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On my reread, I didn't find it to be so bad - obviously, my opinion. I didn't find it to be any worse than many of the other plots. Perrin also took care of two important plot danglers during that time - Masema and his Dragonsworn and the Shaido.

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On my reread, I didn't find it to be so bad - obviously, my opinion. I didn't find it to be any worse than many of the other plots. Perrin also took care of two important plot danglers during that time - Masema and his Dragonsworn and the Shaido.

 

Actually in one sense I'm getting to the point of reread I'm most interested in - I was expecting tEotW-LoC to be good-excellent books and aCoS-WH to be a relative let down (on other rereads I've kind of skim-read to some degree) (and tGS+ are what they are_). But I've heard a lot of people say/write that they work a lot better when you don't have to wait for the next book (this was about the time I started reading them, so the first time I really had to wait) and can read them in one go. The structure of the stories also changed around this point - obviously the overriding battle has arced over all the books, but around this point some storylines started to cross books as well, so waiting for the next book became harder :)

 

In short I'm looking forward to seeing if my opinion changes:)

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If her name really is a hint at the source of the future legend, then RJ probably planned for her to be Graeffalumped all along. The witch with the difficult to penetrate hideout becoming a hideous monster is not that far from a witch with a difficult to penetrate hideout giving birth to a hideous monster.

 

Hi Neophyte and all...I noted 'Graendal' as well (I named my ferrets Graendal and Beowulf) but I also see the name Hessalam as significant. In the books, Hessalam supposedly means "utterly without forgiveness", but, if you put Hessalam and only Hessalam in Google the results are rather different. Ignoring all the Wheel of Time references, "Aleh hes-salaam" refers to one of the names of Christ, at least among Muslims, so I understand if I read the sites correctly. Robert Jordan was known for twisting words and phrases, maybe its HESSALEM who will be the one to return to the Light.

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Dreamspike sounds like a Brandon-word, though. I suspect Jordan would have given it an Old Tongue name. The origins of the idea for a dreamspike certainly seem to have roots in Jordan's plan, though, and even if the use with Perrin was Brandon's doing, it seems to be a perfect fit for how its being used at the Black Tower. Anyway, I don't feel that Graendal's fall from grace was Brandon's creation. The how of it may be, or at least the more specific aspects of it. A Slayer/Perrin confrontation did seem appropriate, however.

 

Jordan may not have worked out all the details of her plot line. Brandon has said that a number of RJ's notes where "And this person ends up here" without Jordan explaining why, or with a few notes on different possible ways he could execute the plan.

 

This is all it is really. It's like when we read the Slayer POV and all the names roll off the tongue. I hate hate hate Brandon's naming. Dreamshard, Balescream, Dreamspike. I'm sure they'd all have an appropriate name. All 3 are things that can definitely exist in this universe, it's just the names sound so juvenile.

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It's a pity BS did that, I don't see that Perrin being better than Eg was necessarily a logical conclusion - Eg didn't try to hold him in place, she created the bonds and then left it. As such he didn't have to exert his will against hers, just reject something that she'd brought into the dream. The balefire was more to do with Perrins ignorance than his being stronger than Eg, she believes that balefire is unstoppable, Perrin viewed it as a weave.

I agree. We've seen Egwene do everything Perrin can, do some of it better, and even do a ton of more things Perrin just can't do at all. What Perrin has that she doesn't is the ability to smell out people. But given that Moghedien was able to track people in TAR, it may well be that this is just something Egwene doesn't know, rather than something she can't know.

For me the stupidity bit comes from how Eg ever thought that tying up a friend and leaving him helpless (what she thought at the time) in the middle of a battle would ever be a good idea.

Oh he had an explanation for that too. Apparently she planned to port him to some safe place in the city to keep him out of the way of the fighting. Bandon does this way too often.

 

Where does the information come from that says Perrin enters in a more physical aspect? In tDR Hopper tells Perrin that he's come to strongly as a result of the hedehog ter'rangreal. I've always taked that to mean that most of the time he enters in a way similar to that of a Dreamwalker, so surely the abilitys would be similar?

It is, actually. Its just that Perrin comes in too strongly, whereas the Dreamwalkers can modulate how strongly they're in TAR. They can come in as misty shades, or some in much more strongly, and in ToM, Egwene says that she was so involved in her fight with Mesaana, there was no way she'd have woken up to any disturbances around her. Clearly, there are degrees to which a sleeping person can enter TAR, and it is likely that entering too strongly is a major risk.

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So is Perrin actually better in TAR? It's quite possible that Eggy was just rusty. Perrin had been training for some time consistently. Eggy hasn't, and she was thinking too much like a channeler and not enough like a dreamwalker, which seems an easy mistake given the circumstances leading her up to that point.

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So is Perrin actually better in TAR? It's quite possible that Eggy was just rusty. Perrin had been training for some time consistently. Eggy hasn't, and she was thinking too much like a channeler and not enough like a dreamwalker, which seems an easy mistake given the circumstances leading her up to that point.

Its a really weird thing. The best of the best in TAR like Lanfear and Moghedien don't stop thinking like channelers. At least, not that I can tell. We've seen Moghedien use the OP in TAR all the time, and her use of a weave to rip Birgette away from TAR is proof that there are TAR specific weaves. Moghedien's statement that compulsion works more strongly in TAR also makes absolutely no sense if the OP has no meaning in TAR.

 

I'm sure you can use your mind to avoid the effects of OP weaves. But nor do I think it is quite as easy as Brandon made it seem for Perrin's benefit. If you can simply ignore a weave, then you should be able to ignore a hammer or arrow. But we see both Perrin and Slayer create actual defenses against these things. I think you can fight balefire in TAR. But for that, you need some kind of imagined defense, like a cuendillar shield maybe.

 

And Egwene is rusty was something Bradon used as an explanation in the book. But it makes no sense. In tGS we saw her feeling at home there, she even said at one point during her imprisonment that her nights were her days, for they were filled with the freedom of TAR. The entire idea was to have her be comfortable in TAR, which will definitely have an important role in the end game of TG. And I think the Mesaana battle was to happen before the Tower was reunited, with no interference from Perrin. But Brandon changed that, and since he can usually have only one character on screen be awesome, he had to do all sorts of weird twists to make the Egwene Perrin scene seem plausible.

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With regards to ignoring a weave vs. ignoring a hammer or an arrow, I am not certain that they are the same.

 

To ignore an hammer, you would have to will the hammer that the other guy is wielding out of existance. That would mean battling the other guys perception of the hammer, which could or could not work. Just getting up a shield to stop the hammer would be easier, and safer, as you cannot ignore the hammerblow once it connects.

 

With a weave or an arrow that has been losend, I think you can will it out of existance, specially if the the caster or shooter is not fixated on having the arrow penetrate you (but then again if the shooter was doing that, why would they use a bow and not just will an arrow into existance streaming towards you?). As I mentioned earlier, we have seen arrows be poofed out of existance in T'A'R, which I assume would lend to that idea at least. Same goes for weaves, be it fireballs or balefire, they're pretty much fire and forget.

 

The more we discuss T'A'R the more we have to search for plausible solutions to make it all work it seems. :wink:

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Dreamspike sounds like a Brandon-word, though. I suspect Jordan would have given it an Old Tongue name. The origins of the idea for a dreamspike certainly seem to have roots in Jordan's plan, though, and even if the use with Perrin was Brandon's doing, it seems to be a perfect fit for how its being used at the Black Tower. Anyway, I don't feel that Graendal's fall from grace was Brandon's creation. The how of it may be, or at least the more specific aspects of it. A Slayer/Perrin confrontation did seem appropriate, however.

 

Jordan may not have worked out all the details of her plot line. Brandon has said that a number of RJ's notes where "And this person ends up here" without Jordan explaining why, or with a few notes on different possible ways he could execute the plan.

 

This is all it is really. It's like when we read the Slayer POV and all the names roll off the tongue. I hate hate hate Brandon's naming. Dreamshard, Balescream, Dreamspike. I'm sure they'd all have an appropriate name. All 3 are things that can definitely exist in this universe, it's just the names sound so juvenile.

 

I actually don't mind balescream, but I do get your point.

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With regards to ignoring a weave vs. ignoring a hammer or an arrow, I am not certain that they are the same.

 

To ignore an hammer, you would have to will the hammer that the other guy is wielding out of existance. That would mean battling the other guys perception of the hammer, which could or could not work. Just getting up a shield to stop the hammer would be easier, and safer, as you cannot ignore the hammerblow once it connects.

 

With a weave or an arrow that has been losend, I think you can will it out of existance, specially if the the caster or shooter is not fixated on having the arrow penetrate you (but then again if the shooter was doing that, why would they use a bow and not just will an arrow into existance streaming towards you?). As I mentioned earlier, we have seen arrows be poofed out of existance in T'A'R, which I assume would lend to that idea at least. Same goes for weaves, be it fireballs or balefire, they're pretty much fire and forget.

 

The more we discuss T'A'R the more we have to search for plausible solutions to make it all work it seems. :wink:

 

I like your logic here.

 

I actually had absolutely no problem with Perrin being more powerful in TAR than Egwene as the wolves come there naturally and he's a wolf brother. She has skills that he doesn't yet have, such as finding people's dreams. I had absolutely no problem with him tossing aside a balefire weave, actually liked it.

 

What I did have a problem with in that chapter was that the Aiel dreamwalkers did so little - at least on screen. I loved Bair changing not just her clothes but skin color to blend into her surroundings.

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I wonder how much of a weaves power comes from the belief of the weaver? IN TAR it's will that matters above most things, even with things like compulsion - they do the weave that results in compulsion, and they know it works therefore it does. Especially because most people in TAR, curently anyway, have the ability to see and also know what will happen if the weave hits them. It fits with how Perrin deflects the weave, but initially has trouble with combat - I can't remember which book it is, but it's probably tSR when Perrin and Slayer fight, and Slayer materialises a dagger inside of Perrins defense (I think he moved to block it with the hammer). Once he's aware that that sort of thing is possible, he includes it in his own battles.

 

The only problem then is why the disc and faulty rings limit the power of the weaver? Unless the ability of the person in TAR to manipulate the world around them is affected by how strongly they're in TAR? But then how did Nyn capture Mog?

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Dreamspike sounds like a Brandon-word, though. I suspect Jordan would have given it an Old Tongue name. The origins of the idea for a dreamspike certainly seem to have roots in Jordan's plan, though, and even if the use with Perrin was Brandon's doing, it seems to be a perfect fit for how its being used at the Black Tower. Anyway, I don't feel that Graendal's fall from grace was Brandon's creation. The how of it may be, or at least the more specific aspects of it. A Slayer/Perrin confrontation did seem appropriate, however.

 

Jordan may not have worked out all the details of her plot line. Brandon has said that a number of RJ's notes where "And this person ends up here" without Jordan explaining why, or with a few notes on different possible ways he could execute the plan.

 

This is all it is really. It's like when we read the Slayer POV and all the names roll off the tongue. I hate hate hate Brandon's naming. Dreamshard, Balescream, Dreamspike. I'm sure they'd all have an appropriate name. All 3 are things that can definitely exist in this universe, it's just the names sound so juvenile.

 

I actually don't mind balescream, but I do get your point.

 

It's like if RJ named T'A'R Dreamworld in the beginning or something.

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