Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Sign in to follow this  
athrian

Question about the seals

Recommended Posts

Hi,

 

I've been a lurker here for years and usually can find answers to my questions by searching threads. If these questions have obvious answers or were answered elsewhere, my apologies.

 

Why do characters keep associating 'breaking the seals' with 'freeing the Dark One'? Egwene went into this a little bit in AMoL ch1, but it seems she started making the same comparison, and I don't get the connection. Breaking the Seals should re-open the Bore, but the DO is still captured. The Bore was open all during the War of Power, which lasted for over a hundred years, and the DO wasn't running around free. Granted, he can have more influence on the world, but it seems no matter what, he can't break free on his own simply by the seals being removed. Did Rand tell Egwene he was going to take a second action and completely open the prison, or have I missed something here?

 

Was the library ter'angreal mentioned in earlier books? At first I had the description confused with the old angreal that Rand used. It seems like this was something that might have come in handy earlier if it was mentioned before.

 

Does the DO's ability to snag the souls of dead people only apply to those who have sworn to him? It seems as though if he's really the Lord of the Grave, he would have been able to simply stop any of the souls that help the Light from being reborn ages ago (including all the souls bound to the Horn).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was the library ter'angreal mentioned in earlier books? At first I had the description confused with the old angreal that Rand used. It seems like this was something that might have come in handy earlier if it was mentioned before.

 

Elayne and Nyneave found it in Ebou Dar. It's use was discovered by Aviendha in KoD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

I've been a lurker here for years and usually can find answers to my questions by searching threads. If these questions have obvious answers or were answered elsewhere, my apologies.

 

Why do characters keep associating 'breaking the seals' with 'freeing the Dark One'? Egwene went into this a little bit in AMoL ch1, but it seems she started making the same comparison, and I don't get the connection. Breaking the Seals should re-open the Bore, but the DO is still captured. The Bore was open all during the War of Power, which lasted for over a hundred years, and the DO wasn't running around free. Granted, he can have more influence on the world, but it seems no matter what, he can't break free on his own simply by the seals being removed. Did Rand tell Egwene he was going to take a second action and completely open the prison, or have I missed something here?

Ignorance. Fear. There is not much remaining from AoL about the Seals and the Bore. Their assumptions are usually guesswork in ToM, not the result of reasoning and research. It looks like that's going to be retconned in AMoL anyway.

 

And in their defense it does increase the risk of freeing DO. For better or worse the Seals keep the Bore from getting larger or slowing it. They can't know how much larger it needs to get or how long it will take for DO to be free. It's a risk that has to be taken, but when the stakes are the end of all creation, wariness is to be expected.

 

Does the DO's ability to snag the souls of dead people only apply to those who have sworn to him? It seems as though if he's really the Lord of the Grave, he would have been able to simply stop any of the souls that help the Light from being reborn ages ago (including all the souls bound to the Horn).

There are definitely limits. We don't exactly know what they are but so far transmigration only happened for the Forsaken, and that doesn't work always either. Osan'gar/Dashiva and Sammael died pretty good without balefire.

Edited by Cem Önal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the bore is significantly larger than it was and its pretty only much the seals holding him now, thats why they are so weakened because they are now holding back the entire might of the dark one and not just a portion of him. So breaking them might release him almost immediately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the bore is significantly larger than it was and its pretty only much the seals holding him now, thats why they are so weakened because they are now holding back the entire might of the dark one and not just a portion of him. So breaking them might release him almost immediately.

 

That is the thought Egwene holds, I believe. IT is a reasonable conclusion, and I would agree if not for this being debunked.

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 2nd, 2010

TOM Signing Report - Matt Hatch (Paraphrased)

 

MATT HATCH

Is the Bore larger or smaller than it was at the time of the Sealing?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

The same size (95% sure).

MATT HATCH

So, are the seals, even in their weakened state, the reason the Bore has not grown any larger?

BRANDON SANDERSON

As far as I know, yes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He isn't completely sure though. It does seem the pattern is already being damaged severly and is already unravelling, it could be the results of balefire i suppose but it more seems the dark one has a massive influence, and that has been increasing. For some reason now anyway the dark one has been able to attack the seals when before he could not so he seems to have become stronger somehow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do characters keep associating 'breaking the seals' with 'freeing the Dark One'? Egwene went into this a little bit in AMoL ch1, but it seems she started making the same comparison, and I don't get the connection. Breaking the Seals should re-open the Bore, but the DO is still captured. The Bore was open all during the War of Power, which lasted for over a hundred years, and the DO wasn't running around free. Granted, he can have more influence on the world, but it seems no matter what, he can't break free on his own simply by the seals being removed. Did Rand tell Egwene he was going to take a second action and completely open the prison, or have I missed something here?

 

You haven't missed anything. Your read and interpretation is correct. Egwene believes that breaking the seals frees the Dark One. Almost certainly incorrectly and not based upon evidence. Rand believes breaking the seals will strengthen the Dark One (but not yet free him) and that is likely true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, she doesn't.

 

ToM, Amyrlin's Anger:

"You can't break the seals," Egwene said. "That would risk letting the Dark One free."

 

Operative word is 'risk'. It's a valid concern, what's stupid is she doesn't even consider asking a simple "Why?". Not that I think Rand would answer truthfully in the WT, more likely he was playing Egwene for FoM.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Readers know that the GLoD couldn't widen the Bore sufficiently to free Itself for over a century of being unsealed in the AoL.

LTT - Rand would be aware of this. Egwene doesn't know.

It's a reasonable risk to take from Rand's angle but not from Egwene's.

As far as Rand is concerned, he will get some time (decades perhaps) before the GLoD can really free Itself even if the Bore is completely unsealed and he has to try it because the Seals must be cleared away.

As far as Egwene knows, it could be instant Freedom for the GLoD if the Seals (which we know are now near-useless anyhow) are removed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think so. DO being free is an unprecedented event so Rand cannot know how wide the Bore needs to get even if he had the memories of all his lives not just LTT. Other side of the coin, anyone who picked up a book about the Collapse and the War of the Shadow would know there was a passage of time between drilling and the sealing therefore Egwene knows it will take some time.

 

Rand is willing to take the risk because he believes it needs to be done. Egwene is not so sure because she doesn't actually have a clue how to seal the Bore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Egwene does not know anything about the bore or the seals. Nor do the Aes Sedai. She and they have come to the wrong conclusion regarding what destroying the seals will do out of pure ignorance,The only people who know the true nature of the seals are Rand and the Forsaken because they know about the bore situation BEFORE the seals were put in place.

 

Does anyone think it is funny how Egwene says she is the watcher of the seals so she will decide what to do with them. First of all the watcher of the seals does not even have the seals with her!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all, yes, it should be known to the AS at least that the War of Power lasted around a decade, and that the Drilling didn't immediately precede it. However, they possibly don't know about the Bore widening in that time frame. Neither can Rand be sure how much time it would take the DO to free Himself now that the Bore is as wide as it is (that it's taken decades to reach this point is no indication of more to come before the process reaches its culmination), or that the Bore hasn't widened in the meanwhile (all Twitter ter'angreal were lost in the Breaking, I believe).

 

But yes, it's a bit odd that Egwene is this concerned about doing it a matter of days too soon, like that's going to make any big difference. And, claiming jurisdiction over the Seals by mere virtue of her title is just as ludicrous, I agree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And, claiming jurisdiction over the Seals by mere virtue of her title is just as ludicrous, I agree.

 

She feels that its her responsibility as Amyrlin and the legacy of the Aes Sedai passed down since the Breaking. To some degree I understand her point. I'm not saying that the argument "BUT I'M WATCHER OF THE SEALS" is a legitimate point to use in an argument about who gets the final decision, I'm just saying I understand her feeling like this decision belongs to the Aes Sedai.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See, we're probably in disagreement about a couple of things here, and it's all really jumbled together to the point that it's hard to make sense of it.

 

I would completely agree with her feeling that she and the AS have a responsibility regarding the Seals, but not that they have authority over them. That could've been theirs as the only channeling organization in the world, but that's not the case anymore. Not to mention, there you have the very man who crafted them; how do you make a case for having a greater authority -- mind you, not greater responsibility -- than he?

 

Then again, I also look at this differently because everything Egwene says or does I immediately consider whether that's her, or Brandon. I know you probably don't, but I can't help it. Her behavior since ToM (her arc in TGS was designed by RJ, no matter who wrote it) is just too erratic and conflicting.

Edited by yoniy0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The White Tower considers themselves to be the torch bearers of the old Aes Sedai, the continuation of that same legacy. It's not just that they are/were the only channeling institution in the world. They likely consider other institutions to be break-away factions, if connected to the old Aes Sedai at all. It's kind of like how some church denominations, such as Catholicism, believe themselves to be the successors to the ministry of Jesus' apostles in an unbroken line from them to now. That's at least how I see the White Tower Aes Sedai viewing themselves. As the true successors to the AoL Aes Sedai.

 

As for Rand's reintegration with LTT, I'm not sure that's understood by many at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not talking about his reintegration; I'm talking about his being the Dragon Reborn. And, naturally, I wasn't referring to what their argument might be regarding the Seals, only to the question of its validity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well Rand seems to give in the Egwene's proclamation as the "Watcher of the Seals" during his conversation with Perrin. Again Rand seems to be all over the place. In the TOM epilogue he was going to smash the seals no matter what Egwene says but within a matter of hours(?), in a conversation with Perrin he is now going to convince her?

 

Maybe it is the effect of all the Brandon bashing here but after my re read of the series, characters in TOM seem to be all over the place and this seems to be continuing in AMOL. Funny how I never noticed it the first time I read the Brandon books.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In regards to her position re: Watcher of the Seals, there is a sort-of character history to sustain the idea of it--she persued being Wisdom, Wise One and Amyrlin with similar fervor, and her one eighty on the Oaths once Siuan made a point connecting the Oaths to the sense of identity of the Aes Sedai--which was not, according to Maria, the result of compulsion from Aran'gat--does have a similar taste to it.

 

For all that, I also feel that this results in part largely because Brandon needed Egwene and Rand in conflict with one another, and therefore simply provided her with the motivation to support that, creating a sense of jarr in sudden degree of the conviction, and too the specificity of the thoughts themselves. The change simply feels to clunky and plot convenient, and involving the abandonment of much of the insight and growth Egwene goes through in KoD and tGS, for it not to lend itself to that feel. In many ways if feels as if, as Brandon says, Egwene's growth as a character was done, and now it is time to focus on the plot, and that is then what occurred.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not talking about his reintegration; I'm talking about his being the Dragon Reborn. And, naturally, I wasn't referring to what their argument might be regarding the Seals, only to the question of its validity.

 

This is what kind of bugs me about Egwene being allowed to have too big of a say in the seals. Well, first off let me say that Perrin essentially gave a way for Rand to do what he wants, but appease Egwene as well. Rand now has additional taveren backing to break the seals; Perrin essentially gave Egwene the ability to negotiate when it is done. They are both at each other's mercies, fine, ok. What really bugs me however is that simply by default the Amyrlin is the Watcher of the Seals. When was the last time an Aes Sedai even laid eyes on a seal before Moiraine? Like I said, simply by default, the powers that be have the power simply because they have the Power when regarding an item of Power. Watcher of the Seals and not even one in their possession this whole time?

 

As far as I'm concerned the seals are with their proper owner, now it's a short conversation as to their destiny.

 

In regards to her position re: Watcher of the Seals, there is a sort-of character history to sustain the idea of it--she persued being Wisdom, Wise One and Amyrlin with similar fervor, and her one eighty on the Oaths once Siuan made a point connecting the Oaths to the sense of identity of the Aes Sedai--which was not, according to Maria, the result of compulsion from Aran'gat--does have a similar taste to it.

 

For all that, I also feel that this results in part largely because Brandon needed Egwene and Rand in conflict with one another, and therefore simply provided her with the motivation to support that, creating a sense of jarr in sudden degree of the conviction, and too the specificity of the thoughts themselves. The change simply feels to clunky and plot convenient, and involving the abandonment of much of the insight and growth Egwene goes through in KoD and tGS, for it not to lend itself to that feel. In many ways if feels as if, as Brandon says, Egwene's growth as a character was done, and now it is time to focus on the plot, and that is then what occurred.

 

I'm thinking part of my agreeing with Yoni's post can apply here as well. I understand that the plot must go on, so great, Egwene has reached the pinnacle of maturity as such an age. What I think that has been nagging at me however is that this turnaround was abrupt. Not a meeting of the Hall? A discussion with Siuan? Anything? The nagging bit is that chapter one seems like it may have been more appropriate as chapter 3 or 4. Instead, it took one or two sentences of a WoT Kindle to get it going, with a very obscure prophecy line. No trust in Rand but turn the tide from an obscure quote from a long gone Amyrlin because she was also a dreamer. Well alright. Still anxious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At least Brandon or someone else in the WoT universe realized that Egwene is made to look like a fool in TOM with her "seals must not be broken at any costs,Rand can surely beat the DO without breaking the seals".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's funny, but nobody seems to realize that Egwene has had the right idea all along. Clearly, there is no need to break the seals on the Field of Merrilor, simply for the sake of making a dramatic gesture in front of Randland's kings and queens. Nobody knows how much this will strengthen the Dark One, exactly how much time will pass between the breaking of the seals and the sealing of the Bore, and what the Shadow will be able to accomplish in this segment of time. Rand should take the seals with him to Shayol Ghul, and break them just as he is about to channel whatever he's planning to channel into the Bore.

Edited by Wool-headed lummox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's funny, but nobody seems to realize that Egwene has had the right idea all along. Clearly, there is no need to break the seals on the Field of Merrilor, simply for the sake of making a dramatic gesture in front of Randland's kings and queens. Nobody knows how much this will strengthen the Dark One, exactly how much time will pass between the breaking of the seals and the sealing of the Bore, and what the Shadow will be able to accomplish in this segment of time. Rand should take the seals with him to Shayol Ghul, and break them just as he is about to channel whatever he's planning to channel into the Bore.

 

Er no. Egwene did not want to break the seals at all in ToM. By AMOL, the author or someone else realized that it maker her look like a total tool so they abruptly changed her thinking at FoM. And it is still wrong. Who know what to do with the seals than the man who made them in the first place? A man with 400 plus years of experience over 2 different ages or a 20 year old girl?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
the author or someone else realized that it maker her look like a total tool so they abruptly changed her thinking at FoM
I'm referring to her reasoning in AMoL, she didn't go into much detail to explain her line of thought in ToM.

 

And it is still wrong
No, it's not wrong, at least not based on the information available to us. The Light gains nothing by breaking the seals in advance, whereas the Dark One strengthens his hold over the world directly in the opening phases of the Last Battle. Bonehead idea? Yes, yes it is.

 

Who know what to do with the seals than the man who made them in the first place? A man with 400 plus years of experience over 2 different ages or a 20 year old girl?
That is a hollow argument, what matters are the facts and the logic, not the person's background. Logic dictates that the seals should be broken immediately before Rand starts doing whatever he's supposed to do at Shayol Ghul, in order to maximize the Light's chances of winning. So unless Rand has a good reason nobody knows about, he is wrong and Egwene is right. Egwene, being cool-headed and rational, is usually right, or at least she tends to make the most of the information available to her. Edited by Wool-headed lummox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be honet I hate her as Amyrlin, I don't think she deserves it or has yet got the skills for the job. it was really very convenient to stick her in the seat, she conducted a coup and she isn't a puppet for other AS... I don't like any of that at all. If she was just a 20 year old AS no one would mind that she has changed her mind about things like this as that's what 20 year olds do, it's normal. Whats not normal is for someone who flip flops like that to be in charge of one of the most important institutions in Randland.

 

Anyway, she started off like a Latra, someone opposed to Rand, yet with a desire to keep the seals in tact, in some ways recognising their incredible cost and the price LTT et al paid, never mind the countless men over the last 3000 years.

 

Now she is in a camp at the FoM and she is willing to concede that the seals may need to be broken it not now. I thought when reading that section maybe she is now willing to recognise that the man who paid the price the first time thinks they should be broken - not just Rand. But then she's complaining about Rand... And acting like a 20 year old... And why is she evenin charge anyway... Godddddddddd forget it I can't take part in these discussions about her she's crap and it's not like BS is false with her character she was always crap and I hate her. Ahhhhhh that's better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
the author or someone else realized that it maker her look like a total tool so they abruptly changed her thinking at FoM
I'm referring to her reasoning in AMoL, she didn't go into much detail to explain her line of thought in ToM.

 

And it is still wrong
No, it's not wrong, at least not based on the information available to us. The Light gains nothing by breaking the seals in advance, whereas the Dark One strengthens his hold over the world directly in the opening phases of the Last Battle. Bonehead idea? Yes, my previous, yes it is.

 

Who know what to do with the seals than the man who made them in the first place? A man with 400 plus years of experience over 2 different ages or a 20 year old girl?
That is a hollow argument, what matters are the facts and the logic, not the person's background. Logic dictates that the seals should be broken immediately before Rand starts doing whatever he's supposed to do at Shayol Ghul, in order to maximize the Light's chances of winning. So unless Rand has a good reason nobody knows about, he is wrong and Egwene is right. Egwene, being cool-headed and rational, is usually right, or at least she tends to make the most of the information available to her.

Your whole logic is based on the idea that Rand wants to break the Seals at the beginning of Tarmon Gai'don and go to Shayol Ghul at the end of it when all statements from Rand so far dictates that he wants to go to Shayol Ghul the first chance he gets and let the rest of the world deal with the stragglers afterwards.

 

To Egwene, exactly one month before FoM:

"In one month's time," Rand said, "I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. I want your help."

 

To Borderlanders, a day before FoM:

"Tomorrow, I meet with the monarchs of the world. After that, I am going to go to Shayol Ghul and break the remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. Good day."

 

I don't see how anyone can come to the conclusion that Egwene and you have. I don't know that this will happen or Rand'll run into some plot-convenient predicament that stops him from executing his plan the first chance he gets. But it makes perfect chance that he goes to Shayol Ghul as soon as possible. Sealing the DO essentially wins this war, after that it's chasing after war criminals and serving them justice for the Light side.

 

 

Edit:

And from what he says to the Borderlanders, it's also clear that he'll break the Seals after he Travels to Shayol Ghul.

Edited by Cem Önal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...