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Most infuriating moment/topic in the books


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& tPoD

Sighing, Aviendha gave up trying to ignore her companions’ conversation behind her, though irritation crackled through it like heat lightning. Even that was better than upsetting herself over a son of treekillers. Oathbreakers. A despised blood the world would be better off without.

 

It's these kinds of comments from the Aiel that are so dissapointing. Sure go ahead and judge an entire nation of people based on the actions of one idiot King. Nothing wrong with that. You don't mind if we judge all of you based on Coulading do you? Or how about Sevanna? Seriously I hope someone, Rand, Perrin, Egwene, Nyneave, even Dobraine, hell anyone, would point out to them what a bunch of huge hypocrites they're acting like in aMoL.

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Seriously I hope someone, Rand, Perrin, Egwene, Nyneave, even Dobraine, hell anyone, would point out to them what a bunch of huge hypocrites they're acting like...

 

Rand did, and it caused the bleakness. 'Course, this should have prompted a little more understanding on the part of the Aiel, but this is WoT, where people have their heads up their rear-ends most of the time. They cannot see past their honor and the toh they have been amassing for a few thousand years. They cannot push their brains to look at the world in a new light and realize that they need to redefine their perceptions of the world. They just see that they were once dedicated to the way of the leaf and abandoned that to become fighters. But they have been fighters for so long, that the way of the leaf feels wrong to them. So, while they fight this inner struggle, they continue to see the wetlanders the same as before.

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You are right.

But I still think if some one had broken his own oath, how could he call others oathbreakers?

 

It's these kinds of comments from the Aiel that are so dissapointing. Sure go ahead and judge an entire nation of people based on the actions of one idiot King. Nothing wrong with that. You don't mind if we judge all of you based on Coulading do you? Or how about Sevanna? Seriously I hope someone, Rand, Perrin, Egwene, Nyneave, even Dobraine, hell anyone, would point out to them what a bunch of huge hypocrites they're acting like in aMoL.

 

The entire WoT series continuously shows how much of a hypocrite everyone is, and then slowly, slowly they grow and get a little better. There are a million examples, Nynaeve being a mean, ignorant and pushy person always complaining how others are stubborn and don't know what they should be doing, Moiraine withholding information from Rand and everyone else and then being upset if they do the same, Rand constantly talking about doing what must be done and pushing people to do it but then refusing to kill a woman, Mat talking about how women never think and then blundering about with the 'Finn....etc etc etc.

Every character, every book, every time.

 

But that is part of why I love this series so much, because as infuriating as it is you slowly see the characters learn, mature, and become "whole" rather than hypocrits without intellectual integrity. That is why this is one of the greatest series ever, because there is a character somewhere we can all relate to, and those characters mature and overcome their personal struggles in a meaningful way.

 

P.S. Still think Nynaeve is frustrating and just...bleargh until the cleansing.

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You are right.

But I still think if some one had broken his own oath, how could he call others oathbreakers?

It's these kinds of comments from the Aiel that are so dissapointing. Sure go ahead and judge an entire nation of people based on the actions of one idiot King. Nothing wrong with that. You don't mind if we judge all of you based on Coulading do you? Or how about Sevanna? Seriously I hope someone, Rand, Perrin, Egwene, Nyneave, even Dobraine, hell anyone, would point out to them what a bunch of huge hypocrites they're acting like in aMoL.

 

The entire WoT series continuously shows how much of a hypocrite everyone is, and then slowly, slowly they grow and get a little better. There are a million examples, Nynaeve being a mean, ignorant and pushy person always complaining how others are stubborn and don't know what they should be doing, Moiraine withholding information from Rand and everyone else and then being upset if they do the same, Rand constantly talking about doing what must be done and pushing people to do it but then refusing to kill a woman, Mat talking about how women never think and then blundering about with the 'Finn....etc etc etc.

Every character, every book, every time.

 

But that is part of why I love this series so much, because as infuriating as it is you slowly see the characters learn, mature, and become "whole" rather than hypocrits without intellectual integrity. That is why this is one of the greatest series ever, because there is a character somewhere we can all relate to, and those characters mature and overcome their personal struggles in a meaningful way.

+1. I love the evolution of all the characters big and small... even when they are making mistakes and losing their way (Rand, Perrin) they are growing in other ways, and they are learning from those experiences.
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& tPoD

Sighing, Aviendha gave up trying to ignore her companions’ conversation behind her, though irritation crackled through it like heat lightning. Even that was better than upsetting herself over a son of treekillers. Oathbreakers. A despised blood the world would be better off without.

 

It's these kinds of comments from the Aiel that are so dissapointing. Sure go ahead and judge an entire nation of people based on the actions of one idiot King. Nothing wrong with that. You don't mind if we judge all of you based on Coulading do you? Or how about Sevanna? Seriously I hope someone, Rand, Perrin, Egwene, Nyneave, even Dobraine, hell anyone, would point out to them what a bunch of huge hypocrites they're acting like in aMoL.

 

Except in the Aiel culture, if the Aiel had let an idiot chieftain chop down the tree they would have all shared his toh. Their is one example I can think of from early on where Rand (or possibly Eg) is learning of ji e toh and is told of when someone who ran away from being Gaishan, and his near family offered themselves as gaishan as well to expunge the shame. They don't (or didn't) understand the concept of a King until recently and it takes time for people to change. (not necessarily saying they're are right but it is understandable from within the books)

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& tPoD

Sighing, Aviendha gave up trying to ignore her companions’ conversation behind her, though irritation crackled through it like heat lightning. Even that was better than upsetting herself over a son of treekillers. Oathbreakers. A despised blood the world would be better off without.

 

 

It's these kinds of comments from the Aiel that are so dissapointing. Sure go ahead and judge an entire nation of people based on the actions of one idiot King. Nothing wrong with that. You don't mind if we judge all of you based on Coulading do you? Or how about Sevanna? Seriously I hope someone, Rand, Perrin, Egwene, Nyneave, even Dobraine, hell anyone, would point out to them what a bunch of huge hypocrites they're acting like in aMoL.

 

Except in the Aiel culture, if the Aiel had let an idiot chieftain chop down the tree they would have all shared his toh. Their is one example I can think of from early on where Rand (or possibly Eg) is learning of ji e toh and is told of when someone who ran away from being Gaishan, and his near family offered themselves as gaishan as well to expunge the shame. They don't (or didn't) understand the concept of a King until recently and it takes time for people to change. (not necessarily saying they're are right but it is understandable from within the books)

They were too proud to understand when their arrogance based on lies. That would be one of the reasons made them die out in the future. So when Aviendha began to understand wetlander's culture and sympathize a treekiller (Olver), Aiel got their hopes.

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Just to comment on Master Albar's analogy of Laman and Couladin ...

 

The Cairhienin stood by Laman and fought the Aiel. Whereas the Aiel were the ones that brought down Couladin for his rebellion. It will be highly speculative to discuss the differences, but I think the Aiel handled Couladin much better than the Cairhienin with Laman.

 

Also, with Laman, why did he break a 500-year old peace treaty? To make a throne. Even Couladin's motives for rebellion were better than Laman's ... the ultimate fool.

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I think i like Nyn so much because she reminds me of my friends mother, and no matter how right she thinks she is and how infuriating she can be. When it comes down to fighting and sticking up for people you care about she is the person who leaps without looking and is willing to stand up for you.

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Just to comment on Master Albar's analogy of Laman and Couladin ...

 

The Cairhienin stood by Laman and fought the Aiel. Whereas the Aiel were the ones that brought down Couladin for his rebellion. It will be highly speculative to discuss the differences, but I think the Aiel handled Couladin much better than the Cairhienin with Laman.

 

Also, with Laman, why did he break a 500-year old peace treaty? To make a throne. Even Couladin's motives for rebellion were better than Laman's ... the ultimate fool.

 

Of course the Cairhienin defended Laman, he's their King! When hundreds of thousands of Aiel come swarming over the Spine in order to, from Cairhien's point of view, ravage their land, it's only normal for them to do so. I doubt the Aiel said please hand over your King before hand. Also while the Aiel turned against the Couladin, his clan stood by him. It's really better to compare nations to individual clans. It was quite evident to the Aiel that Couladin was in the wrong. Far more difficult for the nations of Randland to come to the same conclusion with Laman. As special as it was, all he did was cut down tree. Was it a grave insult towards the Aiel? Of course. But did it warrant the utter destruction the Aiel wrought in the Westlands? Definitely not. Couladin clearly comes across as the bad guy who is willing to cause an enormous war all for the sake of his own pride, whereas Laman just comes across as an arrogant idiot. I doubt he realized how badly the Aiel would take the cutting down of the tree. The Aiel were still willing to slaughter tens of thousands to claim revenge over a single person.

 

Greatest and most honourable warriors in the world they might be, but the Aiel still have some serious issues.

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Just to comment on Master Albar's analogy of Laman and Couladin ...

 

The Cairhienin stood by Laman and fought the Aiel. Whereas the Aiel were the ones that brought down Couladin for his rebellion. It will be highly speculative to discuss the differences, but I think the Aiel handled Couladin much better than the Cairhienin with Laman.

 

Also, with Laman, why did he break a 500-year old peace treaty? To make a throne. Even Couladin's motives for rebellion were better than Laman's ... the ultimate fool.

 

Of course the Cairhienin defended Laman, he's their King! When hundreds of thousands of Aiel come swarming over the Spine in order to, from Cairhien's point of view, ravage their land, it's only normal for them to do so. I doubt the Aiel said please hand over your King before hand. Also while the Aiel turned against the Couladin, his clan stood by him. It's really better to compare nations to individual clans. It was quite evident to the Aiel that Couladin was in the wrong. Far more difficult for the nations of Randland to come to the same conclusion with Laman. As special as it was, all he did was cut down tree. Was it a grave insult towards the Aiel? Of course. But did it warrant the utter destruction the Aiel wrought in the Westlands? Definitely not. Couladin clearly comes across as the bad guy who is willing to cause an enormous war all for the sake of his own pride, whereas Laman just comes across as an arrogant idiot. I doubt he realized how badly the Aiel would take the cutting down of the tree. The Aiel were still willing to slaughter tens of thousands to claim revenge over a single person.

 

Greatest and most honourable warriors in the world they might be, but the Aiel still have some serious issues.

 

Of course half the Aiel now spit on the Shaido as much as they do on Cairhienin, so taking the nation=clan analogy they are not THAT hypocritical.

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This drove me a little wa-wa reading it. Elayne to Gawyn, ToM:

"You say you love her, Elayne said. "You've told her you're devoted to her, that you'd die for her. Well, Egwene has armies full of those kinds of people, as do I. What is truly unique is someone who does what I tell them. Better, someone who does what they know I would tell them, if I had the chance."

 

seriously???????? just live your life as an intelligent gai'shan with foretelling and you'll do ok, Gawyn.

 

While I admit it looks bad. I believe you're missing the point. Any of those soldiers she refers to would also, "do what they're told." So how could it be "unique" to have someone who "does what [they] tell them"? It wouldn't, so that cannot be what she meant flat-out. What she means (and is fairly clearly suggested in the second part of what she says) is that it's about having someone who understands them, their position, and their needs intuitively. Gawyn saw Egwene as a damsel in distress who always needed saving. She was never JUST that, and he needed to learn it. Does she need him to watch her back? Yes obviously she does, we see that. But she wants him to do it with her interests in mind without her having to tell him what those interests are all the time. That's extremely difficult, but that's why it's the "better" situation. The obedient situation would be more like: if I tell you I need you to not do something, please don't do it because I have reasons you need to trust since you don't yet understand me well enough to figure it out. That said, Gawyn does not have to listen explicitly like gai'shain. What he has to do is, pause for a moment, think about why she's asking for what she's asking, and then act appropriately as to not ruin her plans or screw shit up.

 

Just look at Lan. Mori certainly didn't explain every little detail of everything she had planned to Lan. But he knew her well enough to not accidentally ruin all her plans with some childish fairy tale notion of what a hero should be. He anticipated where he was needed, and where he might interfere.

 

Rand's attitude towards women. All the women that have died for me makes me rage whenever I come upon it. It's not cute. Sigh.

 

I second this one. Disgusting really.

 

@Cem

 

Am I spacing? What are you referring to when you say the Salidar AS "ambushed" Rand?

 

I think he's talking about when the whole embassy barged in on Rand in the Palace after one of the Aes Sedai had been nearly killed which they believed was Rand's doing.

 

Ah ok, thanks MA. That of course is a perfectly believable scenario, not sure how else they would be expected to act.

 

More diplomatically perhaps? Trying to frighten Rand with MoM was how the arrogant with bruised egos would act, not politically savvy masterminds...oh wait. :(

 

It's pretty infuriating how badass AS could have been and how far from that they actually turned out. Interesting though.

 

I'm starting to believe RJ just wasn't skilled enough to write any believably savvy subtle verbal "pwnage". Or perhaps it wouldn't come across in a book in any fashion that would actually be interesting. Really, Cads should be the standard Aes Sedai, when it comes to reading people and manipulating them as needed, but then she should be written even more epic than that to make her the legend she is, at least for the ones inclined in that direction. I feel, as a blue, Mori was written fine. More of a well read sister who simply uses the authority of her shawl and the weight of her purse to get what she wants while on a campaign.

Edited by Kael Pyralis
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Just to comment on Master Albar's analogy of Laman and Couladin ...

 

The Cairhienin stood by Laman and fought the Aiel. Whereas the Aiel were the ones that brought down Couladin for his rebellion. It will be highly speculative to discuss the differences, but I think the Aiel handled Couladin much better than the Cairhienin with Laman.

 

Also, with Laman, why did he break a 500-year old peace treaty? To make a throne. Even Couladin's motives for rebellion were better than Laman's ... the ultimate fool.

 

Of course the Cairhienin defended Laman, he's their King! When hundreds of thousands of Aiel come swarming over the Spine in order to, from Cairhien's point of view, ravage their land, it's only normal for them to do so. I doubt the Aiel said please hand over your King before hand. Also while the Aiel turned against the Couladin, his clan stood by him. It's really better to compare nations to individual clans. It was quite evident to the Aiel that Couladin was in the wrong. Far more difficult for the nations of Randland to come to the same conclusion with Laman. As special as it was, all he did was cut down tree. Was it a grave insult towards the Aiel? Of course. But did it warrant the utter destruction the Aiel wrought in the Westlands? Definitely not. Couladin clearly comes across as the bad guy who is willing to cause an enormous war all for the sake of his own pride, whereas Laman just comes across as an arrogant idiot. I doubt he realized how badly the Aiel would take the cutting down of the tree. The Aiel were still willing to slaughter tens of thousands to claim revenge over a single person.

 

Greatest and most honourable warriors in the world they might be, but the Aiel still have some serious issues.

 

Of course half the Aiel now spit on the Shaido as much as they do on Cairhienin, so taking the nation=clan analogy they are not THAT hypocritical.

 

Yeah they treated the Shaido like dirt, but was every Shaido as bad as Couladin or Sevana? I doubt it. They were just following their leaders.

 

That said you're right they don't expect to be seen as the same as the Shaido, and they don't treat the rest of the Randlanders like the Cairhienin, so it's true that if nation=clan they're not that hypocritical. It's still preposterous to hold every last man, woman, and child responsible for the acts of Laman.

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Elaida, Elaida, Elaida.

More specifically anything involving her being amyrlin. Reading anything from her POV infuriates me to the point that I have to skip over them.

When she got snatched by the Seanchan, I literally started singing "ding dong the witch is dead"

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Elaida, Elaida, Elaida.

More specifically anything involving her being amyrlin. Reading anything from her POV infuriates me to the point that I have to skip over them.

When she got snatched by the Seanchan, I literally started singing "ding dong the witch is dead"

+10000

Eliada was a fool. Plus The Kin the Sea Folk and ANYTHING having to do with Failes rescue. The only reason I reread WH CoT and KoD is for Rand, Mat, and Tuon.

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Elaida, Elaida, Elaida.

More specifically anything involving her being amyrlin. Reading anything from her POV infuriates me to the point that I have to skip over them.

When she got snatched by the Seanchan, I literally started singing "ding dong the witch is dead"

+10000

Eliada was a fool. Plus The Kin the Sea Folk and ANYTHING having to do with Failes rescue. The only reason I reread WH CoT and KoD is for Rand, Mat, and Tuon.

 

+1 to boh comments. was I the only person that hated Elayne with the Seafolk in Caemlyn? or on the road there? Or just "Min says I will give birth, therefore I can do whatever the hell I want and be safe"?

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Elaida, Elaida, Elaida.

More specifically anything involving her being amyrlin. Reading anything from her POV infuriates me to the point that I have to skip over them.

When she got snatched by the Seanchan, I literally started singing "ding dong the witch is dead"

+10000

Eliada was a fool. Plus The Kin the Sea Folk and ANYTHING having to do with Failes rescue. The only reason I reread WH CoT and KoD is for Rand, Mat, and Tuon.

 

+1 to boh comments. was I the only person that hated Elayne with the Seafolk in Caemlyn? or on the road there? Or just "Min says I will give birth, therefore I can do whatever the hell I want and be safe"?

I believe that elaynes stupidity is a 'sandersonism'. RJ didn't depict her as insipid. I think BS did the same with her as with Mat. He just didnt "get" her. Granted it is painful to read. More painful than Mats elaborate backstories for Thom and Talmanes.
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Elayne was equally recklessness in RJs books as Sanderson's. How else was she stupid? Her negotiations with Perrin? And YourNewDragonIsGod was referring entirely to Elayne (the interactions with the Sea Folk) events that happened in RJ books.

 

But if the way Sanderson wrote Elyane is what infuriates you in the books, go ahead and feel how you feel, man.

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I'm usually a pretty harsh BS critic, but I don't think the things she did on screen (as in actions taken rather than inner thoughts) in ToM seemed too terribly out of character for her. It was obviously a very bare bones version of her but not like some other characters. Then again I haven't re-read her parts of ToM very recently either.

 

(Small non-specific spoiler for post-ToM)

 

Decisions she apparently made offscreen we find out about later were, as anyone in the two rivers would say, 'woolheaded' though. Those seemed to be the proverbial square peg in a round hole to hammer the plot forward. Way beyond any foolishness she's shown in prior novels.

 

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#1 Worst Scene By Far: Mat riding with Talmanes in his opening chapter of ToM. First time in WoT I put the book down on my first read-through willingly. I remember reading the first three or four pages and thinking, "Who is this guy and what happened to the Real Mat Cauthon?" Since his introduction as a PoV character in TDR, Mat has continually been the PoV for some of my most enjoyable scenes in WoT. If I had to choose a character to go have a drink with and maybe watch a football game with from WoT, it'd be Mat, hands down. But RJ's Mat, not Sanderson's cliched "rogue" vision of Mat.

 

That aside, Sanderson did improve with Mat's Voice, but man, that first scene still sticks out like an Ogier in a room full of Cairhienin (sp?). It is the only scene of a Mat PoV that I have ever skipped over on re-reads, although I am not one to skip though parts of books in general (a few Wondergirls chapters are the only parts of WoT that I had ever skipped on previous re-reads, and lets be honest, who HASN'T skipped some of those chapters on re-reads?!).

 

In general, I think I am fairly lenient on Sanderson when it comes to judging his writing of WoT. I never expected the same thing as what RJ created. But to me, the main responsibilities Sanderson had in taking over the series was two main things: Character Voicing and Plot-line integrity. I didn't expect his style to match RJ's, and in some instances I think his change is somewhat welcome. However, if I can't recognize a main character in the series as the same character in previous books, that is a problem.

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Elayne could be just as foolish and reckless under RJ as Brandon. That being said, Elayne in TofM made me think someone had stolen her ritalin.

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Elayne could be just as foolish and reckless under RJ as Brandon. That being said, Elayne in TofM made me think someone had stolen her ritalin.

 

Ha!

 

I suspect this was BS's interpretation Elayne's emotional volatility from pregnancy, but I remember thinking something very similar during my first read.

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Basically every time Robert Jordan mentions spanking, or makes some comparison between men and women. It was amusing in the first book, but man is it getting old...

 

Cadsuane is an interesting character. She goes from annoying me to no end, to me admiring her. Not admiring her the way some of the characters in the book do, but at least thinking, "y'know, maybe she's got a point".

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Also, Queen Morgase/Maighdin and Tallanvor.

 

As for Tallanvor...She would set him firmly in his place. This time she would! But...

I just got to this point in my reread. Since this is about the beginning of Perrin's PLOD and I know it's going to happen. I found it very hard to read.

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SEA FOLK. SEA FOLK. SEA FOLK. SEA FOLK. SEA FOLK.

 

(nods)

 

I was going to say that the single most infurating moment in the entire books was that thing where Nyv and Elayne, for no good reason, agreed to that absolutly absurd deal about the Bowl of the Winds. I mean, come on, you're already offering to GIVE the sea folk one of the most powerful Ter'angel in the world, the thing that they obviously want more then anything else, just in exchange for them helping you fix the weather, which affects them as much as it affects you, and then somehow they also get you to agree to give them 20 aes sedi as "teachers", which is almost into slavery as far as the Sea Folk are concerned, for an entire year? And giving them traveling and linking along with that?

 

I just can't suspect my disbelief far enough to accept that Elayine and Nyv would ever in a million years agree to that. Elayne is basically a queen, Nyv is one of the most strong willed characters in the series, and they're both passing as aes sedi. How could that have ever happened?

 

And the fact that it happened off camera just makes it worse; it feels like Robert Jordan himself couldn't manage to write a scene like that, because it just didn't make any sense at all for that to have happened.

 

And then the Sea Folk lord that horrible bargin over the main characters for so long, we see them put Nyv through horrible abuse using it...ugh. It just hurts.

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