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Why was Ishy not punished?


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Moggy brought this up in her PoV, but Ishy has failed more then any other individual Forsaken, but still is the top dog. She cannot imagine why, and now that I think on it I cannot either.

 

Why would the DO let him get away with losing to Rand over and over. He was released the entire time everyone else was locked away in the bore, and as far as I can tell, the only thing he did that impacted the story was to send Hawking's armies across the sea and corrupt their prophecies. Other then that I don't remember him doing anything else (besides helping to kill Samuel, the most effective Forsaken we have seen).

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I suspect that more than anything it has to do with the fact that Ishamael alone of all of the Forsaken knows the Dark One's true aim and is working for it. Also, while he did fail in one on one confrontations in the first three books, he played what was so very close to being a winning game for the Dark One. He very nearly won without having to fight the Last Battle. He saw to it that Rand's pain grew intolerable while sowing discord among his followers and coopting through Taim a fair number of the male channelers.

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Think its a combination of what QuietAiel said as well as maybe some dispensation for all the good (or would that be bad?) that he did for the DO over the age (Trolloc Wars, making Artur Hawkwing anti-Aes Sedai crazy), etc. There also may be some recognition by the DO that he was insane (due to too much true power usage)?

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I'm going to diverge a bit from your original point, but basically it comes down to Ishy knows the most about how to help the DO win.

 

 

He battled Rand at Falme, and while he lost, it was there he delivered the first blow which so troubles Rand on his side.

 

Ishy was only partially sealed, and has been credited with much of the chaos that has happened since the DO was sealed-- the Trolloc Wars, and the War of a Hundred Years. If things had been allowed to run their course without his interference during that time, civilization would probably be much farther along than it is in this Age.

 

Ishy/Moridin seems to know much more about the DO's designs (or at least claims to), than anyone else. He has saved Rand in the past-- Why? Because he believes Rand must be at the Last Battle. He told Rand that they've played this out hundreds of other times.

 

"Oh, I know that name you use now, Lews Therin. I know every name you have used through Age after Age, long before you were even the Kinslayer...I know you, know your blood and your line back to the first spark of life that ever was, back to the First Moment. You can never hide from me. Never! We are tied together as surely as two sides of the same coin."

 

"I have a thousand strings tied to you, Kinslayer, each one finer than silk and stronger than steel. Time has tied a thousand cords between us. The battle we two have fought-- do you remember any part of that? Do you have any glimmering that we have fought before, battles without number back to the beginning of Time? I know much that you do not! That battle will soon end. The Last Battle is coming. The last, Lews Therin. Do you really think that you can avoid it? You poor, shivering worm. You will serve me or die! And this time the cycle will not begin anew with your death. The grave belongs to the Great Lord of the Dark. This time if you die, you will be destroyed utterly. This time the Wheel will be broken whatever you do, and the world remade to a new mold. Serve me! Serve Shai'tan, or be destroyed forever!"

 

And later in TGH:

"You have only one salvation, Rand al'Thor. Lews Therin Kinslayer. I am your only salvation. Serve me, and I will give you the world. Resist, and I will destroy you as I have so often before. But this time I will destroy you to your very soul, destroy you utterly and forever."

 

I have won again, Lews Therin. The thought was beyond the void, yet it took an effort to ignore it, not to think of all the lives where he had heard it. He shifted his sword, and Ba'alzamon readied his staff.

 

If you take what Ishy is saying at face value, Rand has died numerous times in the past. If that is true, why has the DO remained locked away? Perhaps because even though he has died, the seals have not been broken-- only patched.

 

The other Forsaken do not understand that if the DO breaks free, that will be the end of EVERYTHING. There will be nothing for them to rule over. Ishy understands that, and embraces it. I think the DO knows that Ishy gets the full picture-- Rand must break the seals for the DO to fully escape and remake the world. Ishy is a thinker. His losses and assists to Rand have served one purpose-- to ensure that this Last Battle will be THE Last Battle. I even think he has planted the idea of breaking the seals to Rand. What better way to bring Rand's attention to an idea than by killing Herid Fel, so that Rand would be DETERMINED to figure out the answer.

 

Breaking the seals may be exactly what Ishy wants. I believe he's pushed Rand to this decision on purpose. I also think the punishments of the other Forsaken for failing to kill Rand are just a game. This quote is especially telling when you view it in this light:

 

"Sometimes old enemies fight so long that they become allies and never realize it. They think they strike at you, but they have become so closely linked it is as if you guided the blow yourself."

 

Breaking the seals may give Rand a chance to put the DO away forever, but Ishy also knows it is the only chance the DO has to WIN forever.

Edited by claireducky
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Ishi actually did good work for the DO

 

to add to what was said allready

as was said above me he responsible for Luther going across the sea and as result to the destruction of the ass Sedai there, who know what help the light could get from that continent if it wasnt corrupted by Ishi ?

 

and he also corrupted the Aial channelers , a nasty surprise he saving for the LB.

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Ishamael is the antithesis to the Dragon. He is not just a regular Forsaken and I suspect there is a lot more to him than we think. Notice how he always referenced HIMSELF as having fought the Dragon since the beginning of time.

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Ishy is the only Forsaken who actively works towards Dark Ones goals. The others just fight for their own agendas.

 

And yeah, as Mark D said, it might have something to do with that, too.

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I know some people believe that Ishy will be the Forsake to "return to the light". Is it possible that all of his recent actions (everything after becoming Mordin) are aimed at helping, not hurting Rand?

 

Mogy thinks that he is very different they he use to be. He doesn't even get kicks from causing pain any more!!! This could just be from his link with Rand but to me it seems like he has his own agenda. If his agenda is the sames as the DO's, why would the DO not have his other minions working toward the same Goal? Wouldn't SHadar Harin(sp) be best buddies with Mordin? Those two haven't even been in the same room that I can remember? If they are both doing the DO's errands why would the DO need two? I feel like hearing a conversation between Mordin and SH would explain everything we need to know.

 

I just feel like Ishy has done surprisingly little since he was reborn. Have we even seen him do anything bad ass with the True Power yet?

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I just feel like Ishy has done surprisingly little since he was reborn. Have we even seen him do anything bad ass with the True Power yet?

 

Other than squeezing that random DF to death in Ebou Dar watching the supergirls leaving no.

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Other then that I don't remember him doing anything else (besides helping to kill Samuel, the most effective Forsaken we have seen).

 

I'm going to argue against this, and I anticipate that not many will agree with me. I'd have to say that, albeit unwillingly, Lanfear has been the most effective Forsaken thus far, primarily due to the fact that she single-handedly removed Moriaine--and thus, her positive influence on Rand--for a significant period of time. True, she's not dead, but there was a large segment of the series where she was not there to advise Rand.

 

 

I'm going to diverge a bit from your original point, but basically it comes down to Ishy knows the most about how to help the DO win.

 

 

He battled Rand at Falme, and while he lost, it was there he delivered the first blow which so troubles Rand on his side.

 

Ishy was only partially sealed, and has been credited with much of the chaos that has happened since the DO was sealed-- the Trolloc Wars, and the War of a Hundred Years. If things had been allowed to run their course without his interference during that time, civilization would probably be much farther along than it is in this Age.

 

Ishy/Moridin seems to know much more about the DO's designs (or at least claims to), than anyone else. He has saved Rand in the past-- Why? Because he believes Rand must be at the Last Battle. He told Rand that they've played this out hundreds of other times.

 

Wait, so you say that he comes close to killing Rand, but that he's the only Foresaken aware of the fact that Rand needs to be alive for the last battle? I don't get it...

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In regards to TP badass-ery, Ishamael was very nearly able to counter Rand with Callandor during their last fight, with that ball of darkness. At least, I assume that was the True Power and not just him bending T'A'R to himself, since he was shouting "Aid me!" The balefire stream he crossed with Rand's was also apparently made of the True Power.

 

And overall, Ishamael appears to be the Forsaken who has done the most on behalf of the Dark One, not only since they're on the same page, but because he was only partially sealed. Without him initiating the Trolloc Wars, the War of a Hundred Years, the Seanchan, the Black Ajah, Samma N'Sei, etc., things would probably look very different. The Forsaken might've stepped out into a world as or nearly as advanced as the one they left behind.

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This could just be from his link with Rand but to me it seems like he has his own agenda. If his agenda is the sames as the DO's, why would the DO not have his other minions working toward the same Goal? Wouldn't SHadar Harin(sp) be best buddies with Mordin? Those two haven't even been in the same room that I can remember? If they are both doing the DO's errands why would the DO need two? I feel like hearing a conversation between Mordin and SH would explain everything we need to know.

 

DO's agenda is destroying the pattern. Ishy is the only Forsaken (that we know of, some suspect Demandred knows and might switch sides for it) who knows DOs plan is to destroy it. Other Forsaken don't want that, they want power. And if Pattern is destroyed, there are really no kingdoms to rule and power to be distributed, now is there.

 

So if other Forsaken figured out that DO wants to destroy the pattern, they'd just switch sides. Sure, they'd still be evil and all, but they wouldn't try to get DO out of his prison.

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Wait, so you say that he comes close to killing Rand, but that he's the only Foresaken aware of the fact that Rand needs to be alive for the last battle? I don't get it...

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. And it's quite clear that Ishy changes his mind regarding killing Rand, as he saves him from Sammael in Shadar Logoth, resulting in Rand and Moridin's balefire crossing streams. I think early in the series, Ishy was quite insane. He talked and acted at times as if he actually thought he was the DO. At that early point, I don't know if he and/or the DO understood that if they could get Rand to destroy the seals (because what fool would do that), they could end it forever.

 

Since then, I think that has changed (say, by the time Moridin and Rand meet at Shadar Logoth)--and Moridin might be insane as well, but he seems to have a lot more of the old Elan in him, the philosopher. Perhaps because he is in a new vessel, the insanity has not affected the physical brain so much, and he is able to grasp the situation more clearly than he could in his old body, wracked by the long use of the True Power. But now he knows the true way for the DO to win. To do that, Rand either needed to be turned to the Dark, or he needed to destroy the seals of his own free will. The DO himself needs to be the one to destroy Rand, and he can only do that if he is freed.

 

Moridin clearly attempted to have Rand turned to the dark, through his use of Semirhage and Graendal to get to him, among other things. If that plan was in the works, why wouldn't he also have a plan to goad Rand into breaking the seals? This is why I am sure the killing of Herid Fel wasn't to shut him up, but to make Rand determined to find the secret behind what Herid was proposing.

 

 

I know some people believe that Ishy will be the Forsake to "return to the light". Is it possible that all of his recent actions (everything after becoming Mordin) are aimed at helping, not hurting Rand?

 

Mogy thinks that he is very different they he use to be. He doesn't even get kicks from causing pain any more!!! This could just be from his link with Rand but to me it seems like he has his own agenda. If his agenda is the sames as the DO's, why would the DO not have his other minions working toward the same Goal? Wouldn't SHadar Harin(sp) be best buddies with Mordin? Those two haven't even been in the same room that I can remember? If they are both doing the DO's errands why would the DO need two? I feel like hearing a conversation between Mordin and SH would explain everything we need to know.

 

I just feel like Ishy has done surprisingly little since he was reborn. Have we even seen him do anything bad ass with the True Power yet?

 

To whoever asked why the other Forsaken are not also working towards that goal-- they ARE, through Moridin's orders to them, but not DIRECTLY, because they can't be trusted with the truth. They turned to the DO for Power. If they knew the DO's true goal is to break the Wheel, destroy the pattern, they'd be totally outtie. There is no future for them as rulers if the DO destroys the Pattern. So, they are used to accomplish other tasks by Ishy, who can manipulate them into serving the DO's true purpose without them understanding why (Rand's kidnapping and time in the box, Semirhage's torture, etc).

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My argument is more complex but essentially he wasn't punished because he doesn't care. I think he alone really understands that the Dark One does not share power and by consequence, is not after it.

 

After all consider the psychology of the Dark One and how it differs from a normal human; Ishamael pretended to be him and the Dark One was not insulted or vexed (like a normal person) but rather was pleased!

 

The truth is:

"There is no path to victory. The only path is to follow the Great Lord and rule for a time before all things end. The others are fools. They look for grand rewards in the eternities, but there will be no eternities. Only the now, the last days."
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The most successful Forsaken outside of Ishamael/Moridin (and maybe Demandred though thats still up in the air) has been Asmodean. The damage Asmo did with the Shaido caused chaos throughout the entire world and directly interfered with Rands mission to unite everyone for the last battle.

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Ishamael is the antithesis to the Dragon. He is not just a regular Forsaken and I suspect there is a lot more to him than we think. Notice how he always referenced HIMSELF as having fought the Dragon since the beginning of time.

^ This. +1

Nice one Mark.

 

Elan Morin 'betrayed all hope', by giving himself fully to Shai'tan - Mind, Body and Soul- , to use as the Lord of Nothing saw fit.

The dark counterpart of Creation paradoxically needs something of Creation to operate on this side of Creation ofcourse.

 

Being promised the Nae'blis position -to be literally HALF a step below the Great Lord of Nothingness- is a hollow promise. Because our control-freak would only make himself regent ofcourse, for as much as Shai'tan can actually be on this side of Creation. Punishing what Ishamael is -the Soul of Shadow, the Heart of the Dark- would be like Shai'tan punishing itself.

 

If you want to read more about what I think the Nae'blis is...look up an old thread called 'Equal yet not'... and start reading @ page 3 onwards.

Cheers,

Mik

Edited by Mik
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Ishamael is the antithesis to the Dragon. He is not just a regular Forsaken and I suspect there is a lot more to him than we think. Notice how he always referenced HIMSELF as having fought the Dragon since the beginning of time.

^ This. +1

Nice one Mark.

 

Elan Morin 'betrayed all hope', by giving himself fully to Shai'tan - Mind, Body and Soul- , to use as the Lord of Nothing saw fit.

The dark counterpart of Creation paradoxically needs something of Creation to operate on this side of Creation ofcourse.

 

Being promised the Nae'blis position -to be literally HALF a step below the Great Lord of Nothingness- is a hollow promise. Because our control-freak would only make himself regent ofcourse, for as much as Shai'tan can actually be on this side of Creation. Punishing what Ishamael is -the Soul of Shadow, the Heart of the Dark- would be like Shai'tan punishing itself.

 

If you want to read more about what I think the Nae'blis is...look up an old thread called 'Equal yet not'... and start reading @ page 3 onwards.

Cheers,

Mik

 

Exactly; there are even prophecies that support this:

 

 

Power of the Shadow made human flesh,

wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin.

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The most successful Forsaken outside of Ishamael/Moridin (and maybe Demandred though thats still up in the air) has been Asmodean. The damage Asmo did with the Shaido caused chaos throughout the entire world and directly interfered with Rands mission to unite everyone for the last battle.

 

Semirhage wasting the Court of the Nine Moons has probably caused more grief, since apparently Seanchan is bigger than the entire wetlands. And she very nearly induced Rand to destroying everything himself. Graendal's kidnapping probably did its part in causing chaos in Shara, too. Though the damage Graendal and Asmodean caused, and the end result of Semirhage's torture, were all pretty inadvertent.

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Ishi actually did good work for the DO

 

to add to what was said allready

as was said above me he responsible for Luther going across the sea and as result to the destruction of the ass Sedai there, who know what help the light could get from that continent if it wasnt corrupted by Ishi ?

 

and he also corrupted the Aial channelers , a nasty surprise he saving for the LB.

BWB points aes sedai there as witch queens with no central white tower organisation

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I find it interesting that the only POV we have from Ishy that I can recall is the Watcher POV when he's spying on Sammael and Graendal. Kinda makes you wonder what more is really going on with him.

Edited by Wolf505
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Hah! Good point.... how do you punish a masochist nihilist?

 

Anyway, I think Ishy just got more done than any three Chosen put together... and he's always "got" the GLotD's plans better than anyone else.

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He wasn't punished because the DO doesn't need to punish him to keep him in line. The other Forsaken are in it for themselves, hoping to rule the world for all eternity with the DO backing them up. Moridin understands the DO's true intentions, and embraces the idea that all existence must end, including his own self. This makes him the Shadow's most loyal servant and the natural leader of the Forsaken, one that's firmly set on nothing but the task of releasing his master. He also secured plenty of victories for the Shadow - the Trollock wars, setting Hawkwing against Aes Sedai, he created the Darkfriend and Black Ajah secret societies, and others we don't know about.

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He wasn't punished because the DO doesn't need to punish him to keep him in line. The other Forsaken are in it for themselves, hoping to rule the world for all eternity with the DO backing them up. Moridin understands the DO's true intentions, and embraces the idea that all existence must end, including his own self. This makes him the Shadow's most loyal servant and the natural leader of the Forsaken, one that's firmly set on nothing but the task of releasing his master. He also secured plenty of victories for the Shadow - the Trollock wars, setting Hawkwing against Aes Sedai, he created the Darkfriend and Black Ajah secret societies, and others we don't know about.

 

Precisely; he is the only one that has the right idea as far as what the DO wants. Besides, I'm fairly certain that as Rand's soul is the Champion of the Light, Ishy's soul is the Champion of the Dark. Balance.

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Because Ishy is the only forsaken who truly understands the nature of the wheel and why the DO will eventually win(in his mind). The other forsaken think that once the DO will win they will rule, but Ishy is the only person who understands tht there will be nothing left to rule. His greatest achievement was bringing Rand to his way of thinking and Rand nearly let the DO win without the need to do any fighting.

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