Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Demandred is overrated


Cem Önal
 Share

Recommended Posts

Moridin doesn't seem very informed in KoD Chapter 3, you know. He admits he doesn't know what the Myrddraal were ordered, only that 100 of them along with thousands of Trollocs were sent into ways. That means he wasn't able to question a Myrddraal (they probably all died anyway), just that he knew they were sent somewhere for some reason.

 

Even if it has something to do with the Chosen Mark, Sammael's death was... questionable. After all that planning, you would normally expect an epic duel between Rand and him. Instead, one minute he is there, the next Rand's balefire destroys where he stands and Rand isn't sure whether he is dead or not. We later learn from RJ that Mashadar killed him but death in WoT is not very final. And we don't know enough of Mashadar or the extent of Fain's abilities.

 

It could be Fain or it could be Sammael controlled by Fain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 68
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Jordan confirmed - on multiple occasions - that Sammael is very dead.

 

And Moridin had the pertinent information - he knew that the person who ordered them in was impersonating Sammael. He had to have interrogated a surviving Myrddraal to get that info (no one else would know). In a group that size, there are always a few survivors on the edges of the battle. And Fain wouldn't have deceived a Myrddraal in that way. Intimidate and control? Yes. Deceive? Nope.

 

Besides, Fain wouldn't send Trollocs and Myrddraal after al'Thor. He wants a personal confrontation.

Edited by Neophyte
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see. Well, I'm not entirely convinced but not so strong in my previous belief either. It could have been Demandred I suppose. That'd fit with how he -if it was him- managed a large scale attack on Caemlyn. Plus:

 

"He could never have borne staying hidden this long,' Demandred put in, lounging into his chair between Semirhage and Mesaana, legs crossed as though perfectly at ease. That seemed doubtful. He was another who was unreconciled, she was sure. "Sammael needed to have every eye directed at him."

 

...

 

"That sounds like Sammael," Demandred said thoughtfully, twisting his goblet and studying the swirling wine. "Perhaps I was mistaken." A remarkable admission, coming from him. Or an attempt to hide being the one who had worn Sammael as a disguise. She would like very much to know who had begun playing her own game. Or whether Sammael really was alive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Neophyte: The Forsaken pow-wow where Moriding reveals the missing fades/trollocs is in the beginning of KoD, the battle is a bit past mid-way. (And is the example of how not to fight a non-channeling force with channelers.) Beyond that it's a matter of interpretation of a bunch of thing, we're never going to agree on who was behind it.

 

I guess I didn't make it clear, there's lots of portal stones around, so keeping them all surveiled would be difficult. And we can do a trolloc pro/con later :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good points, there is Mat = greatest general ever, 4 Great Captains... Demandred is porbably the #6 best...although with Rand having all of LTT's memories now, he could well be #7 on that list.

 

Demandred only has small part of 1 book to work it before death. How awesome can you make perpetual #2 guy?

 

Ishamael and Lanfear has been around forever.

Edited by Entreri
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the AoL Demandred would only have had to have been as good as the generals he was up against. Of course the population was huge and the war went on for years, but everyone had no prior experience.

 

Now, on the other hand, there are a lot of experienced generals kicking around. I dare say that Demandred will have it harder now than he did back them, volume withstanding of course.

 

Exactly. Inexperienced generals and troops are an death of an army.

 

You know what military is very experienced at war? The juggernaut/US military. Imagine the devastation they would do the Shadowspawn armies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the AoL Demandred would only have had to have been as good as the generals he was up against. Of course the population was huge and the war went on for years, but everyone had no prior experience.

 

Now, on the other hand, there are a lot of experienced generals kicking around. I dare say that Demandred will have it harder now than he did back them, volume withstanding of course.

 

Exactly. Inexperienced generals and troops are an death of an army.

 

You know what military is very experienced at war? The juggernaut/US military. Imagine the devastation they would do the Shadowspawn armies.

 

Depends on which Shadowspawn army. The one of the third age? or the one of the Age of Legends?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alright, can we all agree that trollocs aren't the super-soldiers Aginor had in his design specs? For whatever not fully fleshed out reasons, we have some throwaway dialog that's interesting but open to any amount of interpretation. And probably doesn't mesh well with the Strike at Shayol Ghul's non-historic summary :)

 

And someone else can further this minorly-insteresting-to-me subject if they want, it's Friday, I'm out of here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the AoL Demandred would only have had to have been as good as the generals he was up against. Of course the population was huge and the war went on for years, but everyone had no prior experience.

 

Now, on the other hand, there are a lot of experienced generals kicking around. I dare say that Demandred will have it harder now than he did back them, volume withstanding of course.

 

Exactly. Inexperienced generals and troops are an death of an army.

 

You know what military is very experienced at war? The juggernaut/US military. Imagine the devastation they would do the Shadowspawn armies.

 

Depends on which Shadowspawn army. The one of the third age? or the one of the Age of Legends?

 

The one in this Age has no chance. Easiest method would be to set up a defense perimeter and nuke the Blight, which would take care of all of them except a few outside of the Blight.

The Trolloc Army in Andor would be tougher since it is entrenched in the city, but against machine guns, heavy armor and air support...Easy victory.

 

AoL Shadowspawn army:

 

AoL would be much tougher given that it would have several times the number of experienced channelers as the one in the current Age. However, guns would be great against channelers. Shields can be raised in time to ward off arrows, or even wind to disperse them...good luck against bullets.

 

The size of the Trolloc armies would also be several times larger than now...If the US military came with their average supplies, it should be enough. Assuming ammo quantities will not run out for either side, Trolloc armies are toast.

 

Besides the channelers, AoL weaponary is not impressive compared to modern weapons: nukes, chemical, biological, fighters, drones, armor (e.g. tanks), artillery, various small arms etc.

 

Sea warfare would be complete suicide for the Shadowspawn army...1 aircraft carrier strike group would be sufficient. The US has 12.

 

While AoL was advanced, probably real world 22nd century instead of 21st century first world, it was a hippie society with no warfare capabilities prior to the Bore opening. In the real world, weapons have been perfected through countless centuries of warfare.

 

It would take longer, greater casulaties, but once against victory for the US military machine.

Edited by Entreri
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has anyone asked this question? What would it take to make me NOT feel underwhelmed by Demandred?

 

I have seen lots of mumbling about Shara and him suddenly showing up with a completely foreign and barely mentioned contigent of channelers. Some good mumbling but mostly bad mumbling.

 

Would you feel letdown if he showed up with all the channelers of Shara?

 

Would you feel letdown if he was a force controlling the Sea Folk and the 1 mile squared walls at every port city was a cover for him to set up Travelling Grounds for quick dispersion of troops?

 

Would you feel letdown if he was the murderer on the throne in Seander and led a splinter force of Seanchan?

 

Would you feel letdown if the "loose the balefire" directive from the Dark One applied to other realms that exist through the Portal Stones and he is personally responsible for shattering reality and weakening the Pattern by destroying whole other realities?

 

At this point I'm not sure what I would need from him to be blown away.

 

I will say this...I was underwhelmed and frustrated by Perrin for a long time. When he shrugged off Balefire and went about his business the underwhelming feeling was gone. I hope to have a similiar moment somewhere in Memory of Light.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The one in this Age has no chance. Easiest method would be to set up a defense perimeter and nuke the Blight, which would take care of all of them except a few outside of the Blight.

The Trolloc Army in Andor would be tougher since it is entrenched in the city, but against machine guns, heavy armor and air support...Easy victory.

 

No argument here.

 

AoL Shadowspawn army:

 

AoL would be much tougher given that it would have several times the number of experienced channelers as the one in the current Age. However, guns would be great against channelers. Shields can be raised in time to ward off arrows, or even wind to disperse them...good luck against bullets.

 

The size of the Trolloc armies would also be several times larger than now...If the US military came with their average supplies, it should be enough. Assuming ammo quantities will not run out for either side, Trolloc armies are toast.

 

Besides the channelers, AoL weaponary is not impressive compared to modern weapons: nukes, chemical, biological, fighters, drones, armor (e.g. tanks), artillery, various small arms etc.

 

Sea warfare would be complete suicide for the Shadowspawn army...1 aircraft carrier strike group would be sufficient. The US has 12.

 

While AoL was advanced, probably real world 22nd century instead of 21st century first world, it was a hippie society with no warfare capabilities prior to the Bore opening. In the real world, weapons have been perfected through countless centuries of warfare.

 

It would take longer, greater casulaties, but once against victory for the US military machine.

 

Per the Strike at Shayol Ghul the art of warfare was perfected during the War of Power. The Age of Legends also had considerably larger population than our world. The US doesn't even come close. Before the Bore oppened? It wouldn't be pretty. After the Bore opened? Completely different. The AoL had "energy weapons" so I wouldn't be so sure about the weaponry of the American army being superior. And then channelling just makes things way more complicated. The CK alone can destroy the world. Unless you just nuke them, I think the AoL have a definite advantage. And I don't see any reason why they couldn't use nukes of their own. Their technology being so superior, I would be very suprised that they could not produce them.

Edited by Master Ablar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Would you feel letdown if he showed up with all the channelers of Shara?

It would be very impressive if he manages. They have had an active breeding plan for channelers for god knows how long and if they have the population to match the land size they probably have more channelers than the entire Randland. Though, that big of a game changer this late in the story might spoil the atmosphere a bit.

 

Would you feel letdown if he was a force controlling the Sea Folk and the 1 mile squared walls at every port city was a cover for him to set up Travelling Grounds for quick dispersion of troops?

Definitely. Anywhere can be used as a Travelling ground. It's better to simply open a gateway inside the royal palaces. It would be a great let down for me.

 

 

Would you feel letdown if he was the murderer on the throne in Seander and led a splinter force of Seanchan?

Yes, I don't think anyone currently in Seanchan continent will have a role to play in LB.

 

Would you feel letdown if the "loose the balefire" directive from the Dark One applied to other realms that exist through the Portal Stones and he is personally responsible for shattering reality and weakening the Pattern by destroying whole other realities?

Simply, yes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The one in this Age has no chance. Easiest method would be to set up a defense perimeter and nuke the Blight, which would take care of all of them except a few outside of the Blight.

The Trolloc Army in Andor would be tougher since it is entrenched in the city, but against machine guns, heavy armor and air support...Easy victory.

 

No argument here.

 

AoL Shadowspawn army:

 

AoL would be much tougher given that it would have several times the number of experienced channelers as the one in the current Age. However, guns would be great against channelers. Shields can be raised in time to ward off arrows, or even wind to disperse them...good luck against bullets.

 

The size of the Trolloc armies would also be several times larger than now...If the US military came with their average supplies, it should be enough. Assuming ammo quantities will not run out for either side, Trolloc armies are toast.

 

Besides the channelers, AoL weaponary is not impressive compared to modern weapons: nukes, chemical, biological, fighters, drones, armor (e.g. tanks), artillery, various small arms etc.

 

Sea warfare would be complete suicide for the Shadowspawn army...1 aircraft carrier strike group would be sufficient. The US has 12.

 

While AoL was advanced, probably real world 22nd century instead of 21st century first world, it was a hippie society with no warfare capabilities prior to the Bore opening. In the real world, weapons have been perfected through countless centuries of warfare.

 

It would take longer, greater casulaties, but once against victory for the US military machine.

 

Per the Strike at Shayol Ghul the art of warfare was perfected during the War of Power. The Age of Legends also had considerably larger population than our world. The US doesn't even come close. Before the Bore oppened? It wouldn't be pretty. After the Bore opened? Completely different. The AoL had "energy weapons" so I wouldn't be so sure about the weaponry of the American army being superior. And then channelling just makes things way more complicated. The CK alone can destroy the world. Unless you just nuke them, I think the AoL have a definite advantage. And I don't see any reason why they couldn't use nukes of their own. Their technology being so superior, I would be very suprised that they could not produce them.

 

AoL was a world of science and contemplation =/= a lot of people. There would be billions of people, sure, but I would be surprised if it was high as our own.

The population of our world is so great because of the third world. The industrialized nations birth rates are well below replacement level (2.1) and without immigration, the populations would be contracting.

 

War of Power lasted 10 years = time of weapon construction. Which is a short time.

 

So don't expect Star Wars type tech, which takes many 100's of years to develop, if not 1000's. Since the AS lead, their weapons development would be more conducive to creating channeling weapons (ter'angreal, angreal, sa'angreal) and not nukes.

 

Example: They probably converted civilian transports into possible bombers, but most likely they were just troop transports. They would not have enough time to develop a fighter jet program from scratch. Against the likes of modern fighter jets, AoL is toast. With air superiority, WW type scenario, game over...deployment of massive ordances, even excluding nukes.

 

Shocklance, meh. The problem with an energy weapon would be the rate of fire. They would probably be better against armor though. A machine gun would just wreck enemy lines...even excluding the likes of Apache gunships.

 

The US does have energy weapons, however as far we know, none at the personnel level yet. Bear in mind that the US military expenditure is about 1/2 the entire world.

Osama raid: new type of drone was used, along with stealth helicopters.

 

Thus, in war weaponary, the US would still trump AoL. Lastly, in third WW type scenario, nuclear weapons would be deployed = game over. It will not be a pretty fight like the current Age, but still a win.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The War of Power lasted ten years, but the Collapse lasted about a century, and there were likely armed conflicts before the big one. In the Rhuidean flashbacks, the soldiers were said to have been picked and trained from ten years of age, with the Aiel whose POV it was saying war had been going on since before he was born.

 

Guns and conventional weapons would primarily be effective against channelers if they were caught unaware. Otherwise, there are barriers of the Power that can be erected to block such things: simple barriers of Air, the shields of Air and Fire used to block lightning attacks, Rand's near-invincible cocoon, perhaps even gateways to redirect attacks.

 

The AoL also had limitless energy with the standing flows. Any channeler can send little flows of Fire into fuel tanks, or take out power grids if even a weak damane can make Sky Lights. They could even just Travel around blowing up oil tankers. Add to that the fact that they were certainly more advanced, with their hand-held energy weapons (we are quite a long way from that still), and whatever weapons they had that reached across "thousands of miles" and caused death on a huge scale (according to the gholam's thoughts), and pretty much anything our world could muster would be pretty pathetic in comparison. Even nukes could probably be intercepted by the Power or some sort of energy weapon before they ever reached their targets.

 

A couple channelers with a few sa'angreal could travel around and lay waste to most major cities and bases, with absolutely nothing to stop them. Even if they scrambled jets in time, what would they shoot at? They don't have One Power-detectors, and they could be shot out of the sky by those particle beam-like lightning bolts the Forsaken were throwing around at the cleansing. Or they could just Travel to the other side of the country and destroy another city.

 

In any case, it would never have to come down to all-out war, when all it takes is one channeler Traveling to a national leader's bedroom and Compelling them to do whatever they want. Or pulling them into a dream and Compelling them there.

Edited by Oneiros
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On one hand we tend to only see the light's big guns in action. On the other, they're not very intelligent about how they use the power.

 

An important distinction is WoT natural laws aren't ours, so hard to say how well/poorly our aerodynamics and electronics would work. And those are kinda important :)

 

I wonder if Mat's going to figure out that large armies are obselete now and go with OP strike teams with a few mundanes for security.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To those still asking why we still don't know where Demandred's armies are or what he rules, I would point out that among the ancient texts on warfare Barid Bel Medar studied in the Age of Legends, was most likely a copy of Sun Tzu's Art of War. The following quote applies to Demandred perfectly (thus far anyway):

 

“Be extremely subtle even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate.”

 

Along with this one:

 

“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The War of Power lasted ten years, but the Collapse lasted about a century, and there were likely armed conflicts before the big one. In the Rhuidean flashbacks, the soldiers were said to have been picked and trained from ten years of age, with the Aiel whose POV it was saying war had been going on since before he was born.

 

Guns and conventional weapons would primarily be effective against channelers if they were caught unaware. Otherwise, there are barriers of the Power that can be erected to block such things: simple barriers of Air, the shields of Air and Fire used to block lightning attacks, Rand's near-invincible cocoon, perhaps even gateways to redirect attacks.

 

The AoL also had limitless energy with the standing flows. Any channeler can send little flows of Fire into fuel tanks, or take out power grids if even a weak damane can make Sky Lights. They could even just Travel around blowing up oil tankers. Add to that the fact that they were certainly more advanced, with their hand-held energy weapons (we are quite a long way from that still), and whatever weapons they had that reached across "thousands of miles" and caused death on a huge scale (according to the gholam's thoughts), and pretty much anything our world could muster would be pretty pathetic in comparison. Even nukes could probably be intercepted by the Power or some sort of energy weapon before they ever reached their targets.

 

A couple channelers with a few sa'angreal could travel around and lay waste to most major cities and bases, with absolutely nothing to stop them. Even if they scrambled jets in time, what would they shoot at? They don't have One Power-detectors, and they could be shot out of the sky by those particle beam-like lightning bolts the Forsaken were throwing around at the cleansing. Or they could just Travel to the other side of the country and destroy another city.

 

In any case, it would never have to come down to all-out war, when all it takes is one channeler Traveling to a national leader's bedroom and Compelling them to do whatever they want. Or pulling them into a dream and Compelling them there.

 

If they were building weaponary for about 100 years, then you would be right, that would be more than enough to convert all your industry to a war footing and even have created such things as starships and/or space based weapons platforms.

 

10 years, not enough time, neither would 20, since they were a docile society who did not know war at all.

 

One can use snipers from miles away to take out the channelers. Easy as pie.

 

Channelers would definitely be the greatest assest for the AoLers. Rand's near invincible barrier can only be used for a brief time, it does not let in anything, including air and he must release it in order to attack.

 

Nuclear, biological or chemical weapons using ICBM's can reach across the world.. I would hardly call them pathetic. One mutliple war head nuke can take out most countries. Nobody is going to intercepting nukes using the One Power, far too fast to react. They would be traveling at soo many times the speed of sound. That would like trying to catch a bullet with your hand (ICBM's travel much faster than a bullet). Nuclear weapons have been around 70 years and even now, it would be through luck if one could be intercepted.

I suppose some energy weapon could shoot it down if they had developed it (10 or 20 years no enough time).

 

Sure if the war was fought on Earth. This is a war of attrition (WW type, where anything goes). I was assuming the US army was fighting off against the Shadowspawn army in AoL, instead of the AoL Light Army. They can nuke any enemy city. Also bear in mind that the large majority of AS were fighting for the Light.

 

Once again see above. But it is a good point about using compulision on the generals.

Edited by Entreri
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're comparing our world which has never known a time of global peace with a utopian community that has barely a clue what 'war' is. We have had thousands of years to perfect how to murder. It's apples and oranges, people. Our weapons are built for effectiveness after years of experience and countering the enemy. AoLers practically converted tools to weaponry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Entreri, not following your OP nerfs (granted that might be a late book change I haven't been keeping up with). Dem had effective shielding at the Cleansing for example, there isn't a handheld weap outside a nuke with that kind of destructive capability, and it did nothing to him (from description, it's probably 100lbs HE + shrapnel or more--description is trees -> splinters after all, we're talking blockbuster bombs here).

 

Can you be clear on what specific abilities displayed we have to ignore for military from our world to be able to do anything?

Edited by Cybertrolloc
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...