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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
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Spoilers! Chapter One - Eastwards the Winds Blew is up on Tor

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I'm just going to keep spilling them into this thread. Additional quibble:

 

“Tell the people,” Rand said to his clerks. “Post warnings. Earthquakes will continue. Storms. Real ones, terrible ones. There will be a Breaking, and we cannot avoid it. The Dark One will try to grind this world to dust.”

 

Post warnings? Really? I mean honestly, what are they going to put up, this:

 

WARNING: This planet is a hard hat area. Earthquake and storms likely. Everyone please assume the crash position.

 

Post warnings. Honestly.

 

Well honestly, what else could you say? Town criers? Kings/Queens announcing it? When push comes to shove, if you need to placate the people, no TV or Radio, written word has to be involved somehow (Hell even wiht TV and Radio it still has to involve written word).

 

Would you have rather he just said "Warn the people, The Storm is Coming" ?

 

There's not much choice here...

 

I agree that there's nothing useful to be done, my point is why bring it up at all? I would rather he have not bothered with something so ridiculously obvious in the first place. The people in Randland don't need to be put on notice that the feces is about to impact the rotating blade.

 

 

I think there is something to be said though for thinking of the "little people". When a leader acknowledges that they are aware of what is going on it can have large effect in calming people down. It may be that this isn't what Rand was going for, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

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Well I feel the same way as you, but let's be honest here, it's kinda like RL. People are sheep. Some people will be reassured just by someone saying, CRAP IS HAPPENING, NO WORRIES, WE GOT THIS.

 

 

I think there is something to be said though for thinking of the "little people". When a leader acknowledges that they are aware of what is going on it can have large effect in calming people down. It may be that this isn't what Rand was going for, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

 

I guess I can sort of see the intent, but really - post warnings? Just leaving it at "Tell the people" would have been better than that. The idea of making up a bunch of signs is just absurd.

 

There isn't really time for a comprehensive public reassurance campaign at this point.

 

Edit to add: And in all seriousness, what would the signs say? Expect more earthquakes, but the Dragon Reborn is on the case? Signage isn't really an effective tool of reassurance.

Edited by Neophyte

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Well I feel the same way as you, but let's be honest here, it's kinda like RL. People are sheep. Some people will be reassured just by someone saying, CRAP IS HAPPENING, NO WORRIES, WE GOT THIS.

 

 

I think there is something to be said though for thinking of the "little people". When a leader acknowledges that they are aware of what is going on it can have large effect in calming people down. It may be that this isn't what Rand was going for, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

 

I guess I can sort of see the intent, but really - post warnings? Just leaving it at "Tell the people" would have been better than that. The idea of making up a bunch of signs is just absurd.

 

There isn't really time for a comprehensive public reassurance campaign at this point.

 

Edit to add: And in all seriousness, what would the signs say? Expect more earthquakes, but the Dragon Reborn is on the case? Signage isn't really an effective tool of reassurance.

 

Have you ever worked with the extreme public? Like I mean thousands a day. Trust me, a sign will help. Again, I know it's sad to say it, but I think it was just a nod towards the realistic. Like, if this happened in RL, stuff like this would happen.

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Well I feel the same way as you, but let's be honest here, it's kinda like RL. People are sheep. Some people will be reassured just by someone saying, CRAP IS HAPPENING, NO WORRIES, WE GOT THIS.

 

 

I think there is something to be said though for thinking of the "little people". When a leader acknowledges that they are aware of what is going on it can have large effect in calming people down. It may be that this isn't what Rand was going for, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

 

I guess I can sort of see the intent, but really - post warnings? Just leaving it at "Tell the people" would have been better than that. The idea of making up a bunch of signs is just absurd.

 

There isn't really time for a comprehensive public reassurance campaign at this point.

 

Edit to add: And in all seriousness, what would the signs say? Expect more earthquakes, but the Dragon Reborn is on the case? Signage isn't really an effective tool of reassurance.

 

I agree on the signs. Passing word would probably be as effective. As effective as either could be.

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Have you ever worked with the extreme public? Like I mean thousands a day. Trust me, a sign will help. Again, I know it's sad to say it, but I think it was just a nod towards the realistic. Like, if this happened in RL, stuff like this would happen.

 

Yes, actually, in a number of capacities from retail to government. In my experience, signs are good for longstanding informational purposes and clear direction - not for short-term reassurance in a crisis.

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Everybody would have known if he were coming and going. The sky announces him.

 

I'm not sure it would make any difference if they had. For all we know she has since been informed that Rand has been visiting, or not, or maybe they met somewhere else.

Lots of possibilities

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Everybody would have known if he were coming and going. The sky announces him.

 

I'm not sure it would make any difference if they had. For all we know she has since been informed that Rand has been visiting, or not, or maybe they met somewhere else.

Lots of possibilities

 

That seems very unlikely to me. But we can just disagree on that.

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Real Life

 

The sheets had been hastily gathered by the librarians of the Thirteenth Depository.

 

(*sigh* Just a nod to a website ain't it? I get it, but it's distracting, and a plot device to hurry along and rally people quicker.)

 

This is a website, but that website's name is taken exactly from the name of a secret part of the library in the WT with information that only a few librarians and the Amyrlin (and sitters maybe?) have access to. Egwene learns of it from Siuan. It's a legit reference.

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I guess I'd call my reaction mixed. I enjoyed reading it. Most of the characters started acting somewhat calmly and responsibly, and overall I viewed it as a step back from the ledge that was ToM.

 

The Good/ToM reparis. Egwene actually utilized some of the WT's knowledge to try to solve the problem (totally missing from ToM). She's suddenly more reasonable about Rand. Elayne isn't made out to be a TOTAL idiot. She does send people to check on why no one has reported. I didn't have a problem with her agreeing with Rand's idea of breaking the seals, she's always trusted him, and there were hints that Elayne and Nyneave would/could side with Rand over Egwene on this in previous books.

 

More Goodness. I liked the insight into Demandred from Rand. As a proponent of the idea that there may be an actual Memory of Light that may be impactful (from a Darkfriend), I know view Demandred as the most viable candidate, over Cyndane. Agreed with the comment that maybe Cyndane's plea was genuine (why waste time on a trap Rand sees through so easily?) and that would make Isam's visitor most likely Graendal. Implications all over that Moridin isn't as secure as he seems. Loved Egwene's comment about what an AS should be, Servant to All. Finally!

 

Still kind of curious. Roederan accepting from Elayne, but not Egwene? Rand wearing Laman's sword instead of Justice. Rand couldn't figure out that Elyane was preggers via the bond. The first two I'll hold off judgement on, there may indeed be a good reason for each, we can't tell from just an excerpt.The last is kind of puzzling. Heck, he had a month and didn't pop in once? I really hope we get some justification for what else Rand (and Eggy) were doing for the last month since the meeting in ToM. Where was Cadsuane? Egwene doesn't think of the Seanchan who'll save her when she sees Egeanin/Leilwin.

 

The bad. Rand and Balwer apparently being best friends and Balwer getting the ball rolling in 24 hours. And that POV apparently switching around midstream. OK, so the dreamspike isn't preventing channeling anymore, so where are the damned rebel AS who've been sitting outside of the BT doing nothing? Why didn't they send word? Or help once the city fell? That thread line needs to be caught up, badly.

 

Honestly, I like the way things are headed, in terms of characters acting more logically and actions being explained better. All the damage done in ToM can't be repaired easily, in my opinion. But this at least shows there was a bit of an effort (though Chapter 11 bodes ill).

 

Still, Aviendha must meet with Rand this might. The Light must decide on what to do about Caemlyn. And Mat and Mo will get there in the morning. The BT line needs to be caught up (still).

 

In term of the ending, or the victory Rand is hoping for. I think Verin's words from tGS need to be mentioned, in that, this war isn't going to be fought in the way that Rand thinks. It isn't going to be all about battles and Trollocs, the DO is different from that. A force feeding on destruction, distrust, fear, and chaos. I think the Ogier, unity, and possibly the song have a part to play. And I'll reiterate that if ANY Forsaken (other than Moridin) has their eyes opened to the DO's true game, a change of sides could easily happen. Like Asmo said, clinging to that tuft of grass for a long as you can is better than an immediate drop. And that is what they are all facing.

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Oh, forgot to meniton. NO problem with the signs, Rand's reaction to Elayne being preggers (they all have a lot on their plates right now), or Talmanes being rescued in the nick of time.

 

Roederan and Moiraine both coming in the morning will be game changers.

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Some additional thoughts (long, and with some nitpicking/criticism, so feel free to skip if that sort of thing bothers you):

 

 

 

Rand frowned, resting his hand on Laman’s sword at his waist.

 

A gun on the mantle. It wouldn't have been mentioned if it wouldn't be used, so whom will Rand use Laman's sword against?

 

Pregnant with his children. Light! He had only just learned of it. Why hadn’t she been the one to tell him? The answer was simple. Elayne could feel Rand’s emotions as he felt hers. She would have been able to feel how he had been, recently. Before Dragonmount. Back when . . . Well, she wouldn’t have wanted to confront him with a pregnancy when he’d been in such a state. Beyond that, he hadn’t exactly made himself easy to find.

 

That answer contradicts what was said in KoD—Rand's emotions were "vague as stone" to Elayne beyond some pain from when he lost his hand, but she was able to tell his location. I'm guessing RJ never left any valid explanation as to why Elayne or anyone else never bothered telling Rand about her pregnancy—Min definitely should have since it might've given Dark Rand a little more reason to care about the world—so Brandon had to come up with some excuse. So, this is entirely RJ's mess, but it would honestly have been better not to explain it than to offer such a weak explanation.

 

I’m going to be a father, he thought, not for the first time. Yes, Lews Therin had had children, and Rand could remember them and his love for them.

 

I liked this part; I always found it strange that Ilyena was always the only one mentioned of LTT's slain family members. I suspect that was at least partly because RJ had no children of his own and had an easier time relating to love of a spouse.

 

“Go,” Egwene said to Gawyn, weaving her own gateway—one to the Traveling grounds in the White Tower camp nearby. “Send for as many Aes Sedai as we can rouse. Tell Bryne to ready his soldiers, tell them to do as Elayne orders and send them through gateways to the outskirts of Caemlyn.”

 

Egwene is sending a large number of Aes Sedai and Bryne's men to Andor, which means she won't have many people left to send to Tar Valon if/when the Seanchan attack. Also, they're tiring themselves out Healing the wounded. I think Brandon has a tendency to make channelers a little too easily exhausted—Nynaeve channeled massive amounts of saidar for several hours at the Cleansing, and now she's tired just from Healing Talmanes? Moiraine had spent an entire night fighting Trollocs when she Healed Tam in TEotW.

 

“And a longer tomorrow,” Egwene said. “Here, let us link. I’ll lend you my strength.”

Nynaeve looked shocked. “Mother?”

“You are better at Healing than I.” Egwene smiled. “I may be Amyrlin, Nynaeve, but I am still Aes Sedai. Servant of all. My strength will be of use to you.”

 

Again, it's like Brandon had a checklist of common complaints about Egwene that he's quickly trying to fix in a sentence or two. Fails to research the seals? Treats Nynaeve like crap? Suddenly they're all but skipping away arm in arm, linked together. To me, the "fixes" are worse than the problems that came before them.

 

“Pray to the Light they haven’t,” Rand said. “The only Shadowspawn they managed to make that could go through gateways were gholam, and Aginor wasn’t foolish enough to make more than a few of those. No, I’d bet against Mat himself that this was the Caemlyn Waygate. I thought she had that thing guarded!”

 

Why is he putting all this on Elayne? Rand was the one who told Loial in KoD that, “I’ve sealed the Waygates I know, in Caemlyn and Cairhien, Illian and Tear, and I put a very nasty trap on the one that was cut open near Fal Dara, but I couldn’t find the one near Far Madding." Why didn't Rand add traps and do more to secure the Waygate in Caemlyn?

 

 

Edited by sleepinghour

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@sleepinghour - I agree that it is a bit hypocritical for Rand to be upset with Elayne regarding the Waygate. As far as we can tell, she did everything to safeguard it that he has done on other Waygates.

 

Given the ease with which he reached the conclusion that their entry point was the Waygate, he is clearly aware of the liability they pose. He should be aware, as well, that guards and even walls are insufficient safeguards. All this means he has no excuse for not assigning a group of Asha'man and Aes Sedai to a Waygate destruction detail. Sending about 15 channelers around the land vaporizing Waygates would have been more useful than a hundred channelers ready for the Last Battle. He basically propped the back door open for the Shadow.

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Real Life

 

The sheets had been hastily gathered by the librarians of the Thirteenth Depository.

 

(*sigh* Just a nod to a website ain't it? I get it, but it's distracting, and a plot device to hurry along and rally people quicker.)

 

This is a website, but that website's name is taken exactly from the name of a secret part of the library in the WT with information that only a few librarians and the Amyrlin (and sitters maybe?) have access to. Egwene learns of it from Siuan. It's a legit reference.

 

Duh, this is how easily I forget things lol. But my compaint on it still stands, I don't much care for abrupt plot devices, I could have dealt better with an epiphany. (And yes I know there is some ridiculousness in calling it a plot device, but I see it as unnecessary, as up to this point that is how I've viewed Nakomi as well.)

 

On Rand and the preggers thing and Min not saying anything and whatnot, I don't think I have a problem with it, just because of the fact he is KINSLAYER reborn, perhaps it's just safety measures.

 

I at least get the characters reactions to Caemlyn too; this is about damage control and seeing the big picture.

 

@sleepinghour, agree wholeheartedly!! Why do the channelers seem to tire so easily! There doesn't seem to be consistency here. Nyn at the cleansing for so long, and the bowl of winds, but healing Talmanes exhausts her, and then the implication that she isn't done yet. This has kind of irked me as well.

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A couple additional thoughts...

 

Balwer already had a Randland-wide network of Eyes and Ears -- that's what he did for Pedron Niall after all. It's not surprising that he has spies in Elayne's service, one big running plot of the whole series was the Whitecloak's play for Andor. As for Balwer's reactions to Rand, I can imagine him gasping at Rand's open discussion of spies on Balwer's staff because "enemy" agents that you are aware of are great assets -- you can feed them disinformation. Balwer doesn't like such things to be discussed openly. Also, if you were Balwer wouldn't you want to serve the Dragon? Spies are generally looked down upon by everyone and are always taking one side over the other. This would be his chance to be really useful to all of humanity.

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A couple additional thoughts...

 

Balwer already had a Randland-wide network of Eyes and Ears -- that's what he did for Pedron Niall after all. It's not surprising that he has spies in Elayne's service, one big running plot of the whole series was the Whitecloak's play for Andor. As for Balwer's reactions to Rand, I can imagine him gasping at Rand's open discussion of spies on Balwer's staff because "enemy" agents that you are aware of are great assets -- you can feed them disinformation. Balwer doesn't like such things to be discussed openly. Also, if you were Balwer wouldn't you want to serve the Dragon? Spies are generally looked down upon by everyone and are always taking one side over the other. This would be his chance to be really useful to all of humanity.

 

Yup, I thought Balwer has always had a bit of an aversion to being called a spy too hasn't he? I think it's his idea of professional courtesy, that what he does is so much more than that, not just a lowly spy.

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I'm also thinking that I REALLY hope Rhoedran is Demandred, and comes mostly alone. I would love it if he just locks eyes with Rand, there is a moment of familiarity, and they have a meeting of sorts alone. Like Rand just butts in and says they need to speak. Dem nods, and they disappear in to a tent together; whatever transpires transpires, like maybe Rand apologising for LTT, and Dem saying so be it, we will settle it on the field of battle. then Dem leaves via gateway with everyone slackjawed wondering what the hell happened.

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weird to see rand wearing Laman's sword and not Justice?

 

Laman's sword was more a reminder of Aviendha, she hasn't been with him in awhile, and she personally gave him the sword. Remember, he was shocked to sense Aviendha suddenly in the camp.

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Absolutely loved this chapter, without a doubt one of the very best in the entire series.

 

It reminds me a lot of the scenes in Return of the Jedi on board the rebel flagship. Friends seeing each other for the first time in a long time, knowing tat they might never see each other again.

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weird to see rand wearing Laman's sword and not Justice?

 

Laman's sword was more a reminder of Aviendha, she hasn't been with him in awhile, and she personally gave him the sword. Remember, he was shocked to sense Aviendha suddenly in the camp.

 

Rand is in for it too,, Avi's eggs are droppin and she don't waste no time!! She will just jump him, if nothing else for the sake of having kids to name differently than what she saw.

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Waygates can't be vapourised - his plan was for Loial to remove the inner leaf on those considered too dangerous but I think machin shin got in the way

Still I don't get how machin shin didn't eat such a massive meal of souls - that was suppose to be why large numbers were not moved around

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The most interesting point was Rand considering whether a more permanent solution to the Dark One could be found. The possibility of the Dark One being not only sealed but killed off for good has now been raised in-series.

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The most interesting point was Rand considering whether a more permanent solution to the Dark One could be found. The possibility of the Dark One being not only sealed but killed off for good has now been raised in-series.

 

I didn't read it as a possibility to kill the Dark One. I read it that a completely out of the box solution might be the real answer (almost certainly is or that phrase wouldnt be there).

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The most interesting point was Rand considering whether a more permanent solution to the Dark One could be found. The possibility of the Dark One being not only sealed but killed off for good has now been raised in-series.

 

I didn't read it as a possibility to kill the Dark One. I read it that a completely out of the box solution might be the real answer (almost certainly is or that phrase wouldnt be there).

 

One answer kept coming to Rand. A dangerous answer. One that Lews Therin hadn’t considered.

What if the answer wasn’t to seal the Dark One away again? What if the answer, the final answer, was something else? Something more permanent.

Yes, Rand thought to himself for the hundredth time. But is it possible?

 

I'd say killing the Dark One would be pretty permanent and out of the box, but we'll have to wait and see I suppose.

Edited by SuperFade

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