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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
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Spoilers! Chapter One - Eastwards the Winds Blew is up on Tor

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ok, thanks. Another small point. If I understand your theory correctly you believe that shit will seriously hit the fan (Rand dying, the darkness coming) by next noon. Whatever happens I don't believe things will move quite that quickly. That's mostly based on Mat's POV from chapter 11. Grady promised Mat that he will open a gateway for him every day at noon (TOM, Ch 53). From chapter 1 we learn that Grady is at FOM with Perrin. So I think Mat will show up at FOM at noon the next day together with Moiraine.

Or perhaps Grady will go looking for him ahead of time. (I have been arguing for a while now that he would.) Either way, I think Rand will die the next day at the latest.

 

I think it's pretty clear that by Chapter 11 (which has to happen some time after that ) Rand is still alive.

 

Yes, but we don't know how much time has passed since chapter 1. I think it's probably the same day, just because the onset of the Last Battle makes the need for the Seanchan all that much more dire.

 

Rand: OH SHI—

Egeanin: How much do you trust Mat Cauthon?

 

It's certainly interesting though what did happen in chapters 2-10. I think I recall BS mentioning somewhere that the Black Tower will be sorted out early in aMoL so perhaps that's it.

 

I think chapter 2 will be a continuation of chapter 1, probably with Mat showing up. That might extend into chapter 3, but my guess is probably no further than that. The remaining chapters will likely catch up the Black Tower, set it up to merge with the Caemlyn plotline, and maybe those chapters will also give us a glimpse of Lan and/or other Borderlanders. And Tuon. There's nothing else important going on really. Maybe a Forsaken POV.

 

PS—Slayer might come into play in chapter 2 or 3, but that's just another complication. As I've said before I think his main job is to try to kill Rand permanently after his death.

Edited by Terez

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The one thing we do know for sure is that Rand telling Egwene he's going to break the seals in a month actually got her to get the Browns to do a little research on the matter.

 

Unfortunately, the storyline we've seen thus far doesn't tell us if Rand goaded her purposely or not.

 

The only two people who aren't dead and have put thought into sealing the Bore for the last several books are Rand and Min. We know this much, Rand has an incredibly imperfect and dangerous way to seal the Bore at his disposal - the tainting of Saidin. As horrible and risky as it is, it's better than nothing.

 

Unfortunately, LTT probably knows more than anybody on the ways available to seal the Bore, and we know his way is dangerous and not even close to permanent.

 

Egwene's chapters POV are often boring or annoying because she's a humorless primadonna but I respect her.

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I can totally see him jumping in between the DO and Rand at the right moment and being the buffer needed. BUT, didn't BS say something about not wanting Fain to have a Gollum Gollum ending?

It doesn't have to happen by Fain "jumping in" between Rand and the DO. My own pet theory is that it will happen more indirectly via the wounds in Rand's side. They are bound to open when Rand fights the DO and then Fain's essence will come in contact with the DO's essence and something interesting will happen. It would also fit nicely with all the prophecies that Rand's blood will bring the Light somehow. His blood hasn't shown any miraculous properties thus far and this is really the only way I can think of it will.

 

Absolutely true. Fain's essence is there sealed off from the rest of him. So Mashadar can come flooding out and provide a buffer between the OP and the DO. It's a definite possibility.

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Because the breaking of the Seals is something she can control, and it is her duty to control. She does mention resealing in ToM, though confusingly, she says Rand should be able to do it without breaking the Seals.

 

And she's perfectly right, she should be involved, heavely, in the breaking of the seals, the why, and the when.

 

I'm very tempted to say yes. Neither Rand nor Egwene are consistent on this issue.

 

That is incredibly disheartening when I think of all the time I spent pondering the whole issue. But with all the discrepancies I guess there's really no choice.

 

You do this elsewhere too. Why is Rand facing the DO different from the Last Battle? They're exactly the same thing!

 

Those are exactly the same thing!

 

No, when I speak of fighting the Last Battle, I'm talking about fighting Moridin, and Demandred, and Moghedien, and Graendal, and Cyndane. I'm talking about Padan Fain. I'm talking about the darkfriend Ashaman and the Black Ajah, about Taim and Alviarin. I'm talking about Samma N'Sei and Slayer and the trollocs and the darkfriends and whatever the hell else Demandred has coming. That's what I mean when I say Egwene thinks Rand means to fight the Last Battle, when in reality, unless he's lying, Rand means organize them, and then leave them.

Edited by Master Ablar

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Just read the Prologue and Chp 1. Thought it was well done and I can tell the pacing is on a much increased speed. Things are beginning to happen on every page. I lok forward to the rest of the book and to the conculsion of The Wheel of Time.

 

As for all the butt-hurt going on in here, I thin kit stems from people being wrapped into these books so tightly for 10-20 years. They have built up emmense storylines, convolluted plots, and complicated story resolutions that when reality comes; it is a let down. They overhype the plot so much in the run up to the book's realease that no matter how it comes out, it appears to be a let down. Thank God I did not get so wrapped up into the fandom theorizing so I can simply enjoy the story as it comes.

 

This story ending has been known since 1990. It is what it is and it is not affected by fans.

 

People cry about how the characters seem off... of course they seem off, it isn't Robert Jordan writing this. If you assumed it was, then you assumed wrong. From the begnining of Brandon Sanderson's picking up the torch, he has said "I am not going to try and totally mimic Jordan. It will be his story but it will have Sanderson's voice as well." Did people forget that already?

 

I, for one, will sit back and enjoy the Wheel of Time ending story as told by Brandon Sanderson.

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I think this chapter shows a bit much 'we wanted to keep suspense last book, but you're gonna read it in one go now anyway so we might as well tell you'.

 

So much telling of actual ideas in one chapter, where parts of it could easily have gone into last book (like Egwene telling Elayne/Nyn: 'look guys, I don't think we need to break the seals, that's silly. We're reading, and there might be SOME reasons to do it, but seriously, Rand is much too harebrained to know that he needs to... and even then he'd do it at the wrong time'. Not as strong a statement, but if she can just tell Elayne now she could've done so then).

 

That said, it wasn't all bad. Just a bit overly expositionpacked. Especially thanks to balwer.

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ok, thanks. Another small point. If I understand your theory correctly you believe that shit will seriously hit the fan (Rand dying, the darkness coming) by next noon. Whatever happens I don't believe things will move quite that quickly. That's mostly based on Mat's POV from chapter 11. Grady promised Mat that he will open a gateway for him every day at noon (TOM, Ch 53). From chapter 1 we learn that Grady is at FOM with Perrin. So I think Mat will show up at FOM at noon the next day together with Moiraine.

Or perhaps Grady will go looking for him ahead of time. (I have been arguing for a while now that he would.) Either way, I think Rand will die the next day at the latest.

 

I think it's pretty clear that by Chapter 11 (which has to happen some time after that ) Rand is still alive.

 

Yes, but we don't know how much time has passed since chapter 1. I think it's probably the same day, just because the onset of the Last Battle makes the need for the Seanchan all that much more dire.

 

Rand: OH SHI—

Egeanin: How much do you trust Mat Cauthon?

 

It's certainly interesting though what did happen in chapters 2-10. I think I recall BS mentioning somewhere that the Black Tower will be sorted out early in aMoL so perhaps that's it.

 

I think chapter 2 will be a continuation of chapter 1, probably with Mat showing up. That might extend into chapter 3, but my guess is probably no further than that. The remaining chapters will likely catch up the Black Tower, set it up to merge with the Caemlyn plotline, and maybe those chapters will also give us a glimpse of Lan and/or other Borderlanders. And Tuon. There's nothing else important going on really. Maybe a Forsaken POV.

 

PS—Slayer might come into play in chapter 2 or 3, but that's just another complication. As I've said before I think his main job is to try to kill Rand permanently after his death.

 

Hadn't thought about Slayer being used to attempt to kill Rand permanently in TAR. I like it.

Also, we know that slayer is going to play a important role based on Gitara's foretelling that he needs to go to the blight or the world would be doomed. Paraphrasing that a bit. Don't have the books in front of me.

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ok, thanks. Another small point. If I understand your theory correctly you believe that shit will seriously hit the fan (Rand dying, the darkness coming) by next noon. Whatever happens I don't believe things will move quite that quickly. That's mostly based on Mat's POV from chapter 11. Grady promised Mat that he will open a gateway for him every day at noon (TOM, Ch 53). From chapter 1 we learn that Grady is at FOM with Perrin. So I think Mat will show up at FOM at noon the next day together with Moiraine.

Or perhaps Grady will go looking for him ahead of time. (I have been arguing for a while now that he would.) Either way, I think Rand will die the next day at the latest.

I've thought of that possibility too but I consider it unlikely. It would be a pretty strange thing to do plotwise. Why would BS write in Grady's promise to make a gateway at noon only to have to write around it soon after? If he wanted to get Mat to Merrilor before noon all he had to do was make them set up the gateway time, say, early every morning. I should think (or hope) he had a fairly good idea of where things were heading when he was writing chapter 53 of TOM.

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People cry about how the characters seem off... of course they seem off, it isn't Robert Jordan writing this. If you assumed it was, then you assumed wrong. From the begnining of Brandon Sanderson's picking up the torch, he has said "I am not going to try and totally mimic Jordan. It will be his story but it will have Sanderson's voice as well." Did people forget that already?

 

Which is of course, entirely missing the point.

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From what I see Rand intends to face the DO even without a concrete plan. He intends to do whatever he can think of at that moment to defeat the DO right after he breaks the seals and not break the seals and then sit down to think what comes next.

So... a well thought out plan failed miserably. So Rand intends to instead use a plan formulated in the heat of the moment? If so, why did he tell Min he needs her help figuring this out? Is she supposed to go to SG with him, carrying Herid Fel's books, and yell out the answer at the crucial minute? This makes no sense.

 

But your idea that Rand is basically intending to travel to Shayol Ghul break the seals and then do nothing makes even less.

 

Come on, Fionwe. If there's any rule to prophecies in fantasy it's that whenever people think they understand the prophecy you can be sure that whatever they think is wrong. The wound in his side is the biggest one that's true, but that doesn't mean that it'll be the only one.

Seriously? That's your argument here? Because interpretation of the Karaethon Cycle have led to the right conclusions in the past. Especially with Rand's plan for the Aiel, and leaving the Stone of Tear behind.

 

And Rand told us he was moving according to prophecy when he went to the Aiel when exactly? Tell me, please. Show me where he says this prophecy means that and it actually turns out to be true.

 

Ok wrong verb. She did what Rand needed not what Rand wanted. And others said there was the pattened dizzyness after the ta'veren effect released her from its grip.

Nope. The dizziness is very similar to how Tuon reacted after defying his ta'veren pull.

 

And I say Tuon didn't resist. She refused because Rand was at his darkest and the DO's influence made itself known. Had he asked after VOG I'd say Tuon would have accepted the truce.

 

There is a clear corelation between Rand's state and the effect he had on the Pattern.

Nope. There's a relation between Rand's state and how it affects the land. Since he's one with the land.

 

And since the Pattern weaves everything that happens to the land Rand's state does affect the Pattern.

 

When he was at his darkest there were times when only bad things happened and no good. In TGS but someone who traveled with him noticed exactly that. She said that there should be something good to balance the bad that happened around Rand and was surprised there wasn't anything good happening.

Because the land was being corrupted by the corruption in Rand.

 

ROFL So wait I say: When Rand was at his darkest his ta'veren effect actually worked against him, because chance was twisted against him. Only bad things happened to people around him, crucial decisions went against him etc and you say no, his ta'veren effect didn't work against him the land was corrupted by the corruption within Rand. Care to tell me just how you would call Rand's special effect on the land and people around him other than ta'veren? Cause that's what it is. Rand's ta'veren effect is his connection to the land. Mat's ta'veren effect is his luck and Perrin his steadyness I guess.

 

In that same vein is Rand threatening Cadsuane to wish her dead. She says that it was impossible, but was it really? Ta'veren is the rarest ability there is in the world, how much scientific study could there be on them. And how would anyone test those theories?

Seriously? You're asking this after knowing that in the AoL, they had machines that could read all possible futures for your thread?

 

And despite such machines they still didn't see the rise of the DO coming so I would assume that in the AOL people were as fallible as they are in the real world. We have seen two of the three ta'veren exert conscious control over their ta'veren abilities. Both Rand and Mat did it and according to what we've heard from Aes Sedai that should be impossible. So apparently the Aes Sedai were wrong and so was your understanding of whatever RJ said.

 

No, the world will actually pay the price for each day Rand not breaking the seals and facing the DO. But the price might be worth it if it increases the odds of Rand's victory by a single percent.

If your idea of Rand's confrontation is true, then any scenario where Rand faces the DO with an actual plan is going to be 100% more effective than that.

 

That is if Rand is in any shape to execute that plan. Egwene is willing to wait for months if that time is enough for her to agree to a plan. Rand knows that they don't have the luxury of so much time. That's what he told Egwene. The plan they may have may get better with time, but the shape they are in to execute it will only get worse.

 

I don't think Rand was able to feel earthquakes before VOG or sense the DO as he did in Maradon. Rand changed during VOG, he truly became the Dragon Reborn as that name is meant. That's what I mean. He wouldn't have been able to will those apples to blossom again before VOG.

That is it. After VoG, Rand knew he was one with the land. I suspect he can even manipulate it now. But he was always one with the Land. His lack of knowledge of the fact didn't change that.

 

So again you agree with me but say that you disagree. If Rand can now feel the DO's touch as a physical symptom on his body and can affect the land consciously then you have to agree that this link is new or atleast that it has changed to how it was before.

Edited by b3arz3rg3r

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People cry about how the characters seem off... of course they seem off, it isn't Robert Jordan writing this. If you assumed it was, then you assumed wrong. From the begnining of Brandon Sanderson's picking up the torch, he has said "I am not going to try and totally mimic Jordan. It will be his story but it will have Sanderson's voice as well." Did people forget that already?

 

Which is of course, entirely missing the point.

 

LOL. Its Beyond missing the point. Its like saying:

 

Of COURSE he...EDIT - NO WAY MISTER.

 

LOL. Yeah. That example probably is not appropriate.

 

I just mean that Bc something is expected doesn't mean ot should be accepted.

 

 

Fish

Edited by The Fisher King

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Hadn't thought about Slayer being used to attempt to kill Rand permanently in TAR. I like it.

Also, we know that slayer is going to play a important role based on Gitara's foretelling that he needs to go to the blight or the world would be doomed. Paraphrasing that a bit. Don't have the books in front of me.

Gitara said that to Rand's mother about the Waste. Dyelin's talk may imply she may have had a hand in Luc's decision to go to Blight but as far as I remember she thought he was overcome with grief and went away one day.

 

 

I just had an unrelated thought, couldn't Shadow use TAR more effectively? Moghedien and Cyndane are very strong in there and they were mindtrapped. Why didn't Moridin tell them to assassinate world leaders? Forsaken can snatch people from their dreams into TAR. Aes Sedai, Rand and Perrin can shield their dreams and I suppose Mat's terangreal may shield his too but the rest are as defenseless as babies. Kill Darlin in his sleep and Tear is in disarray. Kill Bryne and Salidar Aes Sedai's army goes puff and the Tower may never have been united. Kill the enemy generals and the opposition army loses great strength. Kill Aiel chiefs and Rand's best army loses their cohesion. Kill Min and Rand is devestated. It's simple, brutal and effective. Isn't DO supposed to like that sort of plan? I just don't understand it.

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Remember aes sedai can set wards on dreams - as can aiel dreamers

Moiriane got upset the 3 didn't tell her about their dreams, lanfear threatens to break the wise ones defences and egghead is miffed she can't do the same : the scene shows a haze around rand's dream iirc

What I'm saying is darlin etc are being protected

We have seen some strange deaths though - usually of minor nobles and DFs that sound like that

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There is no evidence whatsoever that anyone other than channelers and dreamers are protected. Oh, Moiraine does say in tEotW that her ward can provide protection to others, but we saw what that protection was worth when Ishamael snatched all three ta'veren repeatedly.

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Umm yeah there was that wanna be my warder talk with Perrin in the inn I guess

Or maybe she was being AS

After all they really wanted the seals

Then again it's not clear how good the forsaken are at finding specific nontaveren dreams - even egwene finds that stuff diffucult

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But remember, and Ive always believed this to be a significant distinction and not just semantics : Ishamael was not breaking through Moiraine's Wards on the three boys' dreams - THEY were entering ISHAMAEL'S.

 

 

Fish

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Hadn't thought about Slayer being used to attempt to kill Rand permanently in TAR. I like it.

Also, we know that slayer is going to play a important role based on Gitara's foretelling that he needs to go to the blight or the world would be doomed. Paraphrasing that a bit. Don't have the books in front of me.

Gitara said that to Rand's mother about the Waste. Dyelin's talk may imply she may have had a hand in Luc's decision to go to Blight but as far as I remember she thought he was overcome with grief and went away one day.

 

 

I just had an unrelated thought, couldn't Shadow use TAR more effectively? Moghedien and Cyndane are very strong in there and they were mindtrapped. Why didn't Moridin tell them to assassinate world leaders? Forsaken can snatch people from their dreams into TAR. Aes Sedai, Rand and Perrin can shield their dreams and I suppose Mat's terangreal may shield his too but the rest are as defenseless as babies. Kill Darlin in his sleep and Tear is in disarray. Kill Bryne and Salidar Aes Sedai's army goes puff and the Tower may never have been united. Kill the enemy generals and the opposition army loses great strength. Kill Aiel chiefs and Rand's best army loses their cohesion. Kill Min and Rand is devestated. It's simple, brutal and effective. Isn't DO supposed to like that sort of plan? I just don't understand it.

 

OK, just listened to the audiobook again (awesome to pass the time when driving a lot). You are right it's rumor that Dyelin mentions. However, I still think that there are some interesting parts.

 

Here are the specefic foretelling rumors that Dyelin mentions came from Gitara regarding Luc.

 

*Gitara convinced him that his fame lay in the blight or his fate.

*Or that he would find the Dragon Reborn in the blight

*or that the last battle depended on him going.

 

The last one is the one that jumped out at me.

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But remember, and Ive always believed this to be a significant distinction and not just semantics : Ishamael was not breaking through Moiraine's Wards on the three boys' dreams - THEY were entering ISHAMAEL'S.

 

 

Fish

Rand got a wound in one of those dreams. Doesn't that only happen in TAR?

 

OK, just listened to the audiobook again (awesome to pass the time when driving a lot). You are right it's rumor that Dyelin mentions. However, I still think that there are some interesting parts.

 

Here are the specefic foretelling rumors that Dyelin mentions came from Gitara regarding Luc.

 

*Gitara convinced him that his fame lay in the blight or his fate.

*Or that he would find the Dragon Reborn in the blight

*or that the last battle depended on him going.

 

The last one is the one that jumped out at me.

Hmm, didn't remember those. You're right.

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But remember, and Ive always believed this to be a significant distinction and not just semantics : Ishamael was not breaking through Moiraine's Wards on the three boys' dreams - THEY were entering ISHAMAEL'S.

 

 

Fish

Rand got a wound in one of those dreams. Doesn't that only happen in TAR?

 

OK, just listened to the audiobook again (awesome to pass the time when driving a lot). You are right it's rumor that Dyelin mentions. However, I still think that there are some interesting parts.

 

Here are the specefic foretelling rumors that Dyelin mentions came from Gitara regarding Luc.

 

*Gitara convinced him that his fame lay in the blight or his fate.

*Or that he would find the Dragon Reborn in the blight

*or that the last battle depended on him going.

 

The last one is the one that jumped out at me.

Hmm, didn't remember those. You're right.

 

I think as far as we know it only happens in TAR, I believe. However, if he was pulling them into a "DreamShard" (groan) we don't really know what sort of rules apply. I would bet though wounds can be taken in a DreamShard as well.

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Hadn't thought about Slayer being used to attempt to kill Rand permanently in TAR. I like it.

Also, we know that slayer is going to play a important role based on Gitara's foretelling that he needs to go to the blight or the world would be doomed. Paraphrasing that a bit. Don't have the books in front of me.

Gitara said that to Rand's mother about the Waste. Dyelin's talk may imply she may have had a hand in Luc's decision to go to Blight but as far as I remember she thought he was overcome with grief and went away one day.

 

 

I just had an unrelated thought, couldn't Shadow use TAR more effectively? Moghedien and Cyndane are very strong in there and they were mindtrapped. Why didn't Moridin tell them to assassinate world leaders? Forsaken can snatch people from their dreams into TAR. Aes Sedai, Rand and Perrin can shield their dreams and I suppose Mat's terangreal may shield his too but the rest are as defenseless as babies. Kill Darlin in his sleep and Tear is in disarray. Kill Bryne and Salidar Aes Sedai's army goes puff and the Tower may never have been united. Kill the enemy generals and the opposition army loses great strength. Kill Aiel chiefs and Rand's best army loses their cohesion. Kill Min and Rand is devestated. It's simple, brutal and effective. Isn't DO supposed to like that sort of plan? I just don't understand it.

 

Do we have any more information on how people are pulled into dreams? I know that BA pulled Amathera into TAR, but they were physically there. Eg spends some time looking for Elayne and Nyns dreams and she knows them well. If its like Eg looking for dreams then it could be because the FS can't find the allies. If that's true then it doesn't explain Amathera. If they could pull Amathera into the dream because they were there then why can't they travel to Tear and do the same there? It's a tricky one, and an excellently fiendish plan:) I think I'm glad you're not in charge of dark side policy.

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I didn't see anything other than it is done and it's considered evil. So as many rules as wanted can be made I suppose if my plan is to be debunked.

 

I have other thoughts on assassination though. Using gateways for example. Get your target's bedroom description from his maid then open a gateway right through his bed. Result: the target is cut neatly and Lord of Chaos is let rule, lol.

Edited by Cem Önal

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ok, thanks. Another small point. If I understand your theory correctly you believe that shit will seriously hit the fan (Rand dying, the darkness coming) by next noon. Whatever happens I don't believe things will move quite that quickly. That's mostly based on Mat's POV from chapter 11. Grady promised Mat that he will open a gateway for him every day at noon (TOM, Ch 53). From chapter 1 we learn that Grady is at FOM with Perrin. So I think Mat will show up at FOM at noon the next day together with Moiraine.

Or perhaps Grady will go looking for him ahead of time. (I have been arguing for a while now that he would.) Either way, I think Rand will die the next day at the latest.

I've thought of that possibility too but I consider it unlikely. It would be a pretty strange thing to do plotwise. Why would BS write in Grady's promise to make a gateway at noon only to have to write around it soon after?

 

Because it was necessary, plotwise, for them to have a meeting time. But with things going haywire, there are a couple of plausible reasons why they might go looking for him early, namely Rand being told about Mat's marriage, or a spying via the colors. But just because Brandon is anticipating this happening doesn't mean he can have Grady drop Mat off with no plan for how to get him back.

 

If he wanted to get Mat to Merrilor before noon all he had to do was make them set up the gateway time, say, early every morning.

 

It lends to the feeling of haywire if they have to change those plans. Events moving forward more quickly than anticipated.

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I remember brandon saying something like the black tower is 6 chapters behind in tom, so im guessing 3 chapters of merrilor then onto the black tower. I still think the black tower will be rought in blood and sisters will walk its ground means black sisters, since elaides other foretelling turned around so much with the "amyrlins anger"

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