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Daniel Hill

Egwene will die

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I'm also very glad there is no TAR in real life because people like you would be running around trying to interject attorneys into an imaginary dream world.

 

Step 1: Enter TAR.

 

Step 2: Someone scares you and you get sad.

 

Step 3: Sue them for inexcusable actions!!!!!

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Neophyte, I would continue this discussion with you. But predictably, Egwene has been compared to a father arranging to sexually assault his daughter, and we've seen someone say Egwene enjoyed "torturing" Nynaeve. The nuance in our discussion has been destroyed. Maybe we can continue ours some other time. I'm bowing out of this.

 

Post 28.

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If you cut away all the fat, all Egwene did was give Nynaeve a BAD DREAM or a few moments. Pretty sure that's not "inexcusable". It's just childish.

 

People who are being waterboarded aren't actually in danger of drowning.

 

So now you're comparing a bad dream to intentional torture and interrogation?

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1) You're her parent, not her peer.

2) These are real people really assaulting your daughter.

3) You cannot instantly repair her clothes and show her that the people never existed in the first place.

 

If you think this is in any way a valid analogy, you're a nut.

 

Really? That's what you've got?

 

1) You're her parent, not her peer. So if I arranged the same treatment for a female co-worker, that would be just hunky-dory? Christ.

 

2) These are real people really assaulting your daughter. What happens in TAR is real, while it is happening, and has impact that can continue afterward. For example, the thorns. And as you may know, one of the prevailing theories about what will be strange about Avi's kids is that they will be concieved in TAR.

 

3) You cannot instantly repair her clothes and show her that the people never existed in the first place. Absolutely irrelevent. I take it you believe that inflicting any sort of phychological injury is OK, and can be "made all better" by saying, "Don't worry, it wasn't real?"

 

Since your name's popped up in here several times already before you even showed up, I'm going to go against my better judgement and assume you're - somehow - not playing some sort of one-dimensional parody of a 12-year-old autistic whose mother locks him in his room on Christmas.

 

1) So if I arranged the same treatment for a female co-worker, that would be just hunky-dory? Christ.

 

No, not at all. You can't dissect three points that go hand-in-hand individually while ignoring the sum of the whole.

 

2) What happens in TAR is real, while it is happening, and has impact that can continue afterward. For example, the thorns. And as you may know, one of the prevailing theories about what will be strange about Avi's kids is that they will be concieved in TAR.

 

I know that. But there's a huge difference between real, sentient people tearing your clothes off, touching your body, seeing you crying, beat up, and naked, than unthinking dream-things.

 

3) Absolutely irrelevent. I take it you believe that inflicting any sort of phychological injury is OK, and can be "made all better" by saying, "Don't worry, it wasn't real?"

 

Was Nynaeve psychologically scarred by this? Has she referenced it at all in the thousands of pages since then, verbally or internally? It illustrated a point that needed illustrating and caused her no lasting harm, physically or emotionally, because she understands that the "men" were unreal, unthinking, unfeeling, essentially imaginary constructs. No real burly rapist tore her clothes off, no real burly rapist saw her naked, no real burly rapist touched her body. There was no harm done in any way.

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If you cut away all the fat, all Egwene did was give Nynaeve a BAD DREAM or a few moments. Pretty sure that's not "inexcusable". It's just childish.

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Neophyte, I would continue this discussion with you. But predictably, Egwene has been compared to a father arranging to sexually assault his daughter, and we've seen someone say Egwene enjoyed "torturing" Nynaeve. The nuance in our discussion has been destroyed. Maybe we can continue ours some other time. I'm bowing out of this.

 

Post 28.

 

19th Amendment still galls you, eh?

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This thread has gotten totally derailed for 3 pages. One of the few things I'll point out is that Egwene is one of the few YOUNG characters in the entire book who consistently sought out positions of power and influence. Rand, Perrin, Matt, Nynaeve....not so much. Nynaeve simply wants to bully people and have them do things her way. Egwene sought power and control over events. Not ascribing evil motives to that, but it is a very different personality.

 

...

 

I think she's going to die. I also think she may betray Rand, and then regret it, and turn back. One of the most dissapointing things to me is how Egwene has been written in the last book - she's smart and capable, and maybe even has a logical argument for why the seals can't be broken. But she doesn't make it, she never considers Rand's point, and she shows no consideration of HOW Rand is expected to best the Dark One....or an alternative way of doing it driven by her.

 

It reads like modern politics actually; stop the other party even if you don't have a plan of your own or have thought through the ramifications.

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I assure you, my piece on the side is very posiitve.

 

Classic.

 

And "love of learning?" Come on. She didn't want to be punished.

 

Come on mate. Love of learning is why she was in Tar to begin with and she was more than capable at this point to people can put that "shouldn't have been there" to bed. She lied and atoned for it.

 

I think she's going to die. I also think she may betray Rand, and then regret it, and turn back. One of the most dissapointing things to me is how Egwene has been written in the last book - she's smart and capable, and maybe even has a logical argument for why the seals can't be broken. But she doesn't make it, she never considers Rand's point, and she shows no consideration of HOW Rand is expected to best the Dark One....or an alternative way of doing it driven by her.

 

Considering Rand's point would be hard to do given he has refused to discuss it and plan. All he offered was a cryptic phrase from Fel with no explanation of what he plans to do and how. Now granted this may be because he doesn't have the answers yet but still until he lasy out a rational course of action Egwene is right to question him.

Edited by Suttree

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Ditto on the betray Rand and turn back. Or else she is going to be the only one to NOT want to betray him and will flip everyone to his side at the last second in some event that costs her life.

 

I dont think she actively sought out positions of power though. I could be wrong, but I cant recall any evidence of that.

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Ditto on the betray Rand and turn back. Or else she is going to be the only one to NOT want to betray him and will flip everyone to his side at the last second in some event that costs her life.

 

I dont think she actively sought out positions of power though. I could be wrong, but I cant recall any evidence of that.

 

Why is there such a recurring hatred of ambition in this thread?

Or am I reading that wrong?

Edited by Zewe

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Ditto on the betray Rand and turn back. Or else she is going to be the only one to NOT want to betray him and will flip everyone to his side at the last second in some event that costs her life.

 

I dont think she actively sought out positions of power though. I could be wrong, but I cant recall any evidence of that.

 

Why is there such a recurring hatred of ambition in this thread?

Or am I reading that wrong?

 

Reading it wrong if thats what you took out of my post. I just meant that I literally dont think she did seek out positions of power and influence. The only difference between the three ta'averns and her is that she didn't throw a tantrum when responsibility was given to her.

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I assure you, my piece on the side is very posiitve.

 

Classic.

 

And "love of learning?" Come on. She didn't want to be punished.

 

Come on mate. Love of learning is why she was in Tar to begin with and she was more than capable at this point to people can put that "shouldn't have been there" to bed. She lied and atoned for it.

 

So, in my original analogy, if it was me, in a ski mask, would that have been OK? Since then the situation would have been entirely in my control?

 

Or, to put this another way:

 

Egwene compares Nynaeve to a child playing with fire. I have more reason to know and care about the dangers of that than most people. I also have access to a piped-gas burn room. There is fire, for training purposes, that is very real, and for many very scary. But I can turn it off in a moment. Would it be acceptable to "teach" a child not to play with fire, by subjecting him to this room? Entirely controlled remember. Or, if not a child, how about a landlord with outstanding code violations?

 

I appreciate that you're not the one taking an extreme position here, and admit her action was inappropriate. Ironically, of all the things we see this character do, this falls low on my list of bad acts. I actually think this was supposed to be a "student becomes the master" moment, and Jordan put a good deal less thought into it than we have.

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Ambition is fine. Ambition that results in other people getting hurt and acting like a colossal hypocrite is not so fine.

 

Like I said, I'm new here and not entirely caught up on prevalent opinions on this forum - who, exactly, has Egwene hurt?

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I assure you, my piece on the side is very posiitve.

 

Classic.

 

And "love of learning?" Come on. She didn't want to be punished.

 

Come on mate. Love of learning is why she was in Tar to begin with and she was more than capable at this point to people can put that "shouldn't have been there" to bed. She lied and atoned for it.

 

So, in my original analogy, if it was me, in a ski mask, would that have been OK? Since then the situation would have been entirely in my control?

 

Or, to put this another way:

 

Egwene compares Nynaeve to a child playing with fire. I have more reason to know and care about the dangers of that than most people. I also have access to a piped-gas burn room. There is fire, for training purposes, that is very real, and for many very scary. But I can turn it off in a moment. Would it be acceptable to "teach" a child not to play with fire, by subjecting him to this room? Entirely controlled remember. Or, if not a child, how about a landlord with outstanding code violations?

 

I appreciate that you're not the one taking an extreme position here, and admit her action was inappropriate. Ironically, of all the things we see this character do, this falls low on my list of bad acts. I actually think this was supposed to be a "student becomes the master" moment, and Jordan put a good deal less thought into it than we have.

 

Are you deliberately choosing the most insane, outlandish attempts at parallels that you can come up with, or is this really what you think constitutes a valid counterpoint?

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Ambition is fine. Ambition that results in other people getting hurt and acting like a colossal hypocrite is not so fine.

 

Like I said, I'm new here and not entirely caught up on prevalent opinions on this forum - who, exactly, has Egwene hurt?

 

Pretty much nobody. She just has an attitude similar to Rand's where she starts to see her friends as objects to manipulate in her position of authority. She basically comes off as being a bitch who isn't loyal to her friends and uses people for her own motives. Rand gets a pass on this because hes going insane, is under intense pressure to save the world, and we see some screen time with him showing him to actually be loyal to his friends. Egwene doesn't get the tender moment screen time and has no madness as an excuse so everyone just writes her off as being a bad person.

Edited by Mark D

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Ambition is fine. Ambition that results in other people getting hurt and acting like a colossal hypocrite is not so fine.

 

Like I said, I'm new here and not entirely caught up on prevalent opinions on this forum - who, exactly, has Egwene hurt?

 

Pretty much nobody. She just has an attitude similar to Rand's where she starts to see her friends as objects to manipulate in her position of authority. She basically comes off as being a bitch who isn't loyal to her friends and uses people for her own motives. Rand gets a pass on this because hes going insane, is under intense pressure to save the world, and we see some screen time with him showing him to actually be loyal to his friends. Egwene doesn't get the tender moment screen time and has no madness as an excuse so everyone just writes her off as being a bad person.

 

I like you.

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Zewe, why not try to understand the other side instead of reflexively asserting that everything egwene does is amazing? She was an amazing bully in the scene. You can argue it was so she could teach a lesson (despite that teaching not being asked for and despite egwenes own thoughts that it was to distract), but your insistence on denying even the basic issues in this scene make your other critiques and thoughts invalid.

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Soooooo bout that Egwene dyin huh? lol Anyways, no I don't think she will. If she does who does that really leave to lead the WT afterwards? I'm hoping that the FoM finally brings the original group of Two Rivers to leave in tEotW back together (including Mo and hopefully Lan) and they realize that this all began with a close-knit purpose and it will end with a close-knit purpose.

 

I've been waiting the entire series to see the main characters back together and it's about time for it to happen.

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Ambition is fine. Ambition that results in other people getting hurt and acting like a colossal hypocrite is not so fine.

 

Like I said, I'm new here and not entirely caught up on prevalent opinions on this forum - who, exactly, has Egwene hurt?

 

Pretty much nobody. She just has an attitude similar to Rand's where she starts to see her friends as objects to manipulate in her position of authority. She basically comes off as being a bitch who isn't loyal to her friends and uses people for her own motives. Rand gets a pass on this because hes going insane, is under intense pressure to save the world, and we see some screen time with him showing him to actually be loyal to his friends. Egwene doesn't get the tender moment screen time and has no madness as an excuse so everyone just writes her off as being a bad person.

 

I don't actually disagree with that, mostly. Except to note that this: "has no madness as an excuse" is kinda a big deal.

Edited by randsc

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Do you let your child play with a tiger to learn not to mess with cats? No.

 

Do you let your child play with the family cat to learn not to mess with cats? Sure.

 

Why the difference? Because the chances are that the family cat is not going to do irreparable damage to your child. Maybe a scratch on the arm or leg which won't even leave a scar. In doing so, you allow your child to learn the lesson that animals can hurt and should be treated with a proper level of respect. Then when they come across a pitbull loose on the street, they know not to do something stupid and piss it off.

 

Egwene knew that she could fix/stop anything that happened that got too far out of hand. That is simply a form of parenting. Maybe younger readers don't like that approach because they're too close to being the "child" to be able to see it from the parent point of view? Not sure, but it makes sense to me ... only in the understanding that she knew the environment was controllable.

This is pretty much exactly how I think of it.

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Zewe, why not try to understand the other side instead of reflexively asserting that everything egwene does is amazing? She was an amazing bully in the scene. You can argue it was so she could teach a lesson (despite that teaching not being asked for and despite egwenes own thoughts that it was to distract), but your insistence on denying even the basic issues in this scene make your other critiques and thoughts invalid.

 

I don't think everything Egwene does is amazing; I've never even implied as much. I'm pretty sure one of the first posts I made in this thread was something to the effect of "I don't agree with a good bit of what she does," in fact.

 

"He" is also a new posting name, but not a new poster.

 

Forgive me if I'm assuming too much, but are you referring to me here? I am indeed a new poster. I've lurked these forums for years, but I've only recently taken the time to join in.

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The hardest thing to do when you become a leader in any capacity is establishing that role with those who you've been closest to and now are responsible for. Especially if those people were once responsible for you.

 

And whether she was supposed to be there or not, when you see opportunities to parent or lead and that is your responsibility then you MUST take those opportunities.

 

And, yes ... sometimes even parents have fun at their children's expense while teaching them a lesson at the same time. It's one of joys of the job ;)

 

Egwene was not a leader at that point. She was actually still a learner herself, still being tutored by the Wise Ones. She had no authority to punish Nynaeve, particularly since she herself was violating her teacher's orders at the same time. There really is no possible way to excuse her actions here.

 

Yeah, that's the way I remember it, too. This was at a point in the Eg-Nyna relationship where Eg had broken away completely from being Nyna's apprentice and was turning the tables to show her who is boss.

 

But, there are many times throughout the books where friends and allies do things to each other that I'm like "what?" I've decided to interperet these things as, this is a different world (yes, even if it's our world at a different age, it's different) and people are just more violent and vindictive in this world - at least compared to much of modern day Western society.

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Zewe, why not try to understand the other side instead of reflexively asserting that everything egwene does is amazing? She was an amazing bully in the scene. You can argue it was so she could teach a lesson (despite that teaching not being asked for and despite egwenes own thoughts that it was to distract), but your insistence on denying even the basic issues in this scene make your other critiques and thoughts invalid.

 

I don't think everything Egwene does is amazing; I've never even implied as much. I'm pretty sure one of the first posts I made in this thread was something to the effect of "I don't agree with a good bit of what she does," in fact.

 

"He" is also a new posting name, but not a new poster.

 

Forgive me if I'm assuming too much, but are you referring to me here? I am indeed a new poster. I've lurked these forums for years, but I've only recently taken the time to join in.

 

Perhaps I was wrong. The content, syntax and tone of your posts is remarkably similar to someone who used to post here.

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