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Daniel Hill

Egwene will die

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Do you let your child play with a tiger to learn not to mess with cats? No.

 

Do you let your child play with the family cat to learn not to mess with cats? Sure.

 

Why the difference? Because the chances are that the family cat is not going to do irreparable damage to your child. Maybe a scratch on the arm or leg which won't even leave a scar. In doing so, you allow your child to learn the lesson that animals can hurt and should be treated with a proper level of respect. Then when they come across a pitbull loose on the street, they know not to do something stupid and piss it off.

 

Egwene knew that she could fix/stop anything that happened that got too far out of hand. That is simply a form of parenting. Maybe younger readers don't like that approach because they're too close to being the "child" to be able to see it from the parent point of view? Not sure, but it makes sense to me ... only in the understanding that she knew the environment was controllable.

 

Unfortunately none of this is relevant because the point of the whole horrendous event was to cover up the fact that Egwene did not have permission to be there. She actually giggles about it in her POV. Egwene wasn't setting out to teach Nynaeve anything, the whole event was to keep Nynaeve wrong footed so she would stop asking about the Wise Ones.

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The reason this incident is so reprehensible to many people is her motivation behind it. She was not trying to teach Nyneave a lesson about the dangers of Tar, she was trying to intimidate her to the point she would be so frightened that the Wise One's would not discover that Egwene had broken her oath, again. She did not even think of just telling Nyneave what was going on and asking her to keep quiet. Then after all of this we see how excited she was about torturing her supposed friend, she liked the feeling.

 

It is really no surprise that she something similar during Nyneave's testing, going above and beyond an already above and beyond test because she gets high off of denegrating Nyneave, who had formerly been ranked above her.

 

If I had to think of one person that Egwene reminds me off it would be Andrew Carnegie. He was an absolute monster in business, destorying everything around him to ensure that he was the most powerful business man. However, he used his power and wealth for the betterment of the people he had crushed, acomplishing incredible things that still effect people in a positive way a hundred years later.

Edited by meeker

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The hardest thing to do when you become a leader in any capacity is establishing that role with those who you've been closest to and now are responsible for. Especially if those people were once responsible for you.

 

And whether she was supposed to be there or not, when you see opportunities to parent or lead and that is your responsibility then you MUST take those opportunities.

 

And, yes ... sometimes even parents have fun at their children's expense while teaching them a lesson at the same time. It's one of joys of the job ;)

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The hardest thing to do when you become a leader in any capacity is establishing that role with those who you've been closest to and now are responsible for. Especially if those people were once responsible for you.

 

And whether she was supposed to be there or not, when you see opportunities to parent or lead and that is your responsibility then you MUST take those opportunities.

 

And, yes ... sometimes even parents have fun at their children's expense while teaching them a lesson at the same time. It's one of joys of the job ;)

 

Egwene was not a leader at that point. She was actually still a learner herself, still being tutored by the Wise Ones. She had no authority to punish Nynaeve, particularly since she herself was violating her teacher's orders at the same time. There really is no possible way to excuse her actions here.

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Then after all of this we see how excited she was about torturing her supposed friend, she liked the feeling.

 

There is no excuse to her actions but this the tough part when discussing Egwene. A legitimate discussion ensues and then someone dives in with absurd hyperbole like she enjoyed "torturing her supposed friend". Again it was obviously written as a coming of age moment, Nynaeve had been bullying Egwene for ages and she was happy that their relationship was shifting. Her being happy had nothing to do with taking some sadistic pleaure in Nynaeve's pain.

 

Btw it is wrong to say that she wasn't also teaching her a lesson. We as readers know that Egwene is far more skilled and had a slegitimate point.

 

@meeker please show support for your claim that she get's "high" off what happened in Nyn's testing.

Edited by Suttree

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Egwene was not a leader at that point. She was actually still a learner herself, still being tutored by the Wise Ones. She had no authority to punish Nynaeve, particularly since she herself was violating her teacher's orders at the same time. There really is no possible way to excuse her actions here.

 

It was even worse than that. t was not just that she was told not go there she had given her oath(as an Aes Sedai no less) that she would not go into Tar on her own.

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Then after all of this we see how excited she was about torturing her supposed friend, she liked the feeling.

 

There is no excuse to her actions but this the tough part when discussing Egwene. A legitimate discussion ensues and then someone dives in with absurd hyperbole like she enjoyed "torturing her supposed friend". Again it was obviously written as a coming of age moment, Nynaeve had been bullying Egwene for ages and she was happy that their relationship was shifting. Her being happy had nothing to do with taking some sadistic pleaure in Nynaeve's pain.

 

Btw it is wrong to say that she wasn't also teaching her a lesson. We as readers know that Egwene is far more skilled and had a slegitimate point.

 

@meeker please show support for your claim that she get's "high" off what happened in Nyn's testing.

 

Which happened first in this thread, hyperbole about Egwene taking pleasure in turturing Nynaeve, or the typical, idiotic, knee-jerk "You just don't like strong womynz!!!!"

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Egwene was not a leader at that point. She was actually still a learner herself, still being tutored by the Wise Ones. She had no authority to punish Nynaeve, particularly since she herself was violating her teacher's orders at the same time. There really is no possible way to excuse her actions here.

 

It was even worse than that. t was not just that she was told not go there she had given her oath(as an Aes Sedai no less) that she would not go into Tar on her own.

 

Which she atoned for and the Aiel no longer hold it against her. Funny that Nyn doesn't hold either incident against her either and yet the fans are so indignant. Weird that they focus on a teenage misstep and yet Rand gets a pass for things like slaughtering his own men in the Damona Mountains. I just find it very interesting how skewed viewpoints get and wish their could be more balance. Egwene's actions were very wrong yes, but let's not turn this into something it is not.

 

Which happened first in this thread, hyperbole about Egwene taking pleasure in turturing Nynaeve, or the typical, idiotic, knee-jerk "You just don't like strong womynz!!!!"

 

I missed it, if it did happen it is of course wrong. Regardless neither excuses the other.

Edited by Suttree

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The hardest thing to do when you become a leader in any capacity is establishing that role with those who you've been closest to and now are responsible for. Especially if those people were once responsible for you.

 

And whether she was supposed to be there or not, when you see opportunities to parent or lead and that is your responsibility then you MUST take those opportunities.

 

And, yes ... sometimes even parents have fun at their children's expense while teaching them a lesson at the same time. It's one of joys of the job ;)

 

Egwene was not a leader at that point. She was actually still a learner herself, still being tutored by the Wise Ones. She had no authority to punish Nynaeve, particularly since she herself was violating her teacher's orders at the same time. There really is no possible way to excuse her actions here.

 

How about...her actions didn't harm anything or anyone and they had nothing but positive results? There's nothing to excuse. This is just picking on Egwene because she's Egwene and you're all a bunch of chauvinists. That's really what it comes down to.

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This is just picking on Egwene because she's Egwene and you're all a bunch of chauvinists. That's really what it comes down to.

 

Here comes randsc in 3, 2, 1...

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Nah, it's just disliking the character and trying to invent legitimate reasons for that dislike. She isn't a likable character. She is inentionally written that way. There is no reason to exaggerate or read too far into the details of some of her childish actions just to justify your dislke.

Edited by Mark D

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The correct analogy (and yes, I have used it before. But no one has very successfully refuted it):

 

My teenage daughter has a tendancy to walk home alone, through a dangerous neighborhood. This concerns me, and I wish to make her stop. So I recruit a couple of my friends, who waylay her on her next trip through the neighborhood, drag her into an alley, and tear off her clothes. She is of course terrified, and never again walks home alone through a dangerous neighborhood.

 

Am I a good parent?

 

Or even better:

 

My teenage daughter has a tendancy to walk home alone, through a dangerous neighborhood. This concerns me, and I wish to make her stop. Also, this neighborhood is home to my piece on the side, and I am concerned that my daughter will see me there and tell my wife. So I recruit a couple of my friends, who waylay her on her next trip through the neighborhood, drag her into an alley, and tear off her clothes. She is of course terrified, and never again walks home alone through a dangerous neighborhood, and my wife never finds out that I am getting a little strange.

 

Am I a good parent?

 

Note that in neither of these scenarios does it matter that the rapists were not "real", and that my daughter was never in actual danger of being raped. Is my behavior appropriate?

 

If you say yes, you're a nut. If no, just acknowledge that even if you won't accept any other criticism of Egwene, her conduct in this instance was inexcusable.

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Who is randsc and why does he keep popping up in this thread?

 

She isn't a likable character. She is inentionally written that way.

 

Really? Barring the first couple books, I've always liked Egwene quite a bit. Not just because she's an interesting, very real character or anything; I think she's a genuinely likable girl.

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The correct analogy (and yes, I have used it before. But no one has very successfully refuted it):

 

My teenage daughter has a tendancy to walk home alone, through a dangerous neighborhood. This concerns me, and I wish to make her stop. So I recruit a couple of my friends, who waylay her on her next trip through the neighborhood, drag her into an alley, and tear off her clothes. She is of course terrified, and never again walks home alone through a dangerous neighborhood.

 

Am I a good parent?

 

Or even better:

 

My teenage daughter has a tendancy to walk home alone, through a dangerous neighborhood. This concerns me, and I wish to make her stop. Also, this neighborhood is home to my piece on the side, and I am concerned that my daughter will see me there and tell my wife. So I recruit a couple of my friends, who waylay her on her next trip through the neighborhood, drag her into an alley, and tear off her clothes. She is of course terrified, and never again walks home alone through a dangerous neighborhood, and my wife never finds out that I am getting a little strange.

 

Am I a good parent?

 

Note that in neither of these scenarios does it matter that the rapists were not "real", and that my daughter was never in actual danger of being raped. Is my behavior appropriate?

 

If you say yes, you're a nut. If no, just acknowledge that even if you won't accept any other criticism of Egwene, her conduct in this instance was inexcusable.

 

1) You're her parent, not her peer.

2) These are real people really assaulting your daughter.

3) You cannot instantly repair her clothes and show her that the people never existed in the first place.

 

If you think this is in any way a valid analogy, you're a nut.

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Which happened first in this thread, hyperbole about Egwene taking pleasure in turturing Nynaeve, or the typical, idiotic, knee-jerk "You just don't like strong womynz!!!!"

 

I missed it, if it did happen it is of course wrong. Regardless neither excuses the other.

 

Post 28.

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The correct analogy (and yes, I have used it before. But no one has very successfully refuted it):

 

My teenage daughter has a tendancy to walk home alone, through a dangerous neighborhood. This concerns me, and I wish to make her stop. So I recruit a couple of my friends, who waylay her on her next trip through the neighborhood, drag her into an alley, and tear off her clothes. She is of course terrified, and never again walks home alone through a dangerous neighborhood.

 

Am I a good parent?

 

Or even better:

 

My teenage daughter has a tendancy to walk home alone, through a dangerous neighborhood. This concerns me, and I wish to make her stop. Also, this neighborhood is home to my piece on the side, and I am concerned that my daughter will see me there and tell my wife. So I recruit a couple of my friends, who waylay her on her next trip through the neighborhood, drag her into an alley, and tear off her clothes. She is of course terrified, and never again walks home alone through a dangerous neighborhood, and my wife never finds out that I am getting a little strange.

 

Am I a good parent?

 

Note that in neither of these scenarios does it matter that the rapists were not "real", and that my daughter was never in actual danger of being raped. Is my behavior appropriate?

 

If you say yes, you're a nut. If no, just acknowledge that even if you won't accept any other criticism of Egwene, her conduct in this instance was inexcusable.

 

Now pretend that all happened in an imaginary dream world where the hired rapists can appear and vanish in the blink of an eye. Then pretend she's not your daughter anymore and is a friend of your mothers who doesnt know what she's doing but is bossing you around. Weird how those tiny details change quite a bit.

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Really? Barring the first couple books, I've always liked Egwene quite a bit. Not just because she's an interesting, very real character or anything; I think she's a genuinely likable girl.

 

I wish you meet a girl like that and you have a wonderful life =] ... just make sure you dont dream in the space as her or your might get butt hurt.

 

As someone said, this incident happen when she was learning. how is egwene now that she's matured?

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The correct analogy (and yes, I have used it before. But no one has very successfully refuted it):

 

My teenage daughter has a tendancy to walk home alone, through a dangerous neighborhood. This concerns me, and I wish to make her stop. So I recruit a couple of my friends, who waylay her on her next trip through the neighborhood, drag her into an alley, and tear off her clothes. She is of course terrified, and never again walks home alone through a dangerous neighborhood.

 

Am I a good parent?

 

Or even better:

 

My teenage daughter has a tendancy to walk home alone, through a dangerous neighborhood. This concerns me, and I wish to make her stop. Also, this neighborhood is home to my piece on the side, and I am concerned that my daughter will see me there and tell my wife. So I recruit a couple of my friends, who waylay her on her next trip through the neighborhood, drag her into an alley, and tear off her clothes. She is of course terrified, and never again walks home alone through a dangerous neighborhood, and my wife never finds out that I am getting a little strange.

 

Am I a good parent?

 

Note that in neither of these scenarios does it matter that the rapists were not "real", and that my daughter was never in actual danger of being raped. Is my behavior appropriate?

 

If you say yes, you're a nut. If no, just acknowledge that even if you won't accept any other criticism of Egwene, her conduct in this instance was inexcusable.

 

The difference as others have pointed out to you over the years is first it is ridiculous using the second example to in any way associate something positive like love of learning to having a "piece on the side". The most important point however is regardless of them being your friends you have zero control over their independent actions. It is a far different situation if you take into account Nyn's own reactions control how your friends act and that you can wish them away with a thought.

 

Again to be clear this is her lowest moment. There is no excuse, however Egwene did atone for her lie and Nynaeve doesn't hold it against her in the slightest.

Edited by Suttree

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1) You're her parent, not her peer.

2) These are real people really assaulting your daughter.

3) You cannot instantly repair her clothes and show her that the people never existed in the first place.

 

If you think this is in any way a valid analogy, you're a nut.

 

Really? That's what you've got?

 

1) You're her parent, not her peer. So if I arranged the same treatment for a female co-worker, that would be just hunky-dory? Christ.

 

2) These are real people really assaulting your daughter. What happens in TAR is real, while it is happening, and has impact that can continue afterward. For example, the thorns. And as you may know, one of the prevailing theories about what will be strange about Avi's kids is that they will be concieved in TAR.

 

3) You cannot instantly repair her clothes and show her that the people never existed in the first place. Absolutely irrelevent. I take it you believe that inflicting any sort of phychological injury is OK, and can be "made all better" by saying, "Don't worry, it wasn't real?"

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The correct analogy (and yes, I have used it before. But no one has very successfully refuted it):

 

My teenage daughter has a tendancy to walk home alone, through a dangerous neighborhood. This concerns me, and I wish to make her stop. So I recruit a couple of my friends, who waylay her on her next trip through the neighborhood, drag her into an alley, and tear off her clothes. She is of course terrified, and never again walks home alone through a dangerous neighborhood.

 

Am I a good parent?

 

Or even better:

 

My teenage daughter has a tendancy to walk home alone, through a dangerous neighborhood. This concerns me, and I wish to make her stop. Also, this neighborhood is home to my piece on the side, and I am concerned that my daughter will see me there and tell my wife. So I recruit a couple of my friends, who waylay her on her next trip through the neighborhood, drag her into an alley, and tear off her clothes. She is of course terrified, and never again walks home alone through a dangerous neighborhood, and my wife never finds out that I am getting a little strange.

 

Am I a good parent?

 

Note that in neither of these scenarios does it matter that the rapists were not "real", and that my daughter was never in actual danger of being raped. Is my behavior appropriate?

 

If you say yes, you're a nut. If no, just acknowledge that even if you won't accept any other criticism of Egwene, her conduct in this instance was inexcusable.

 

Now pretend that all happened in an imaginary dream world where the hired rapists can appear and vanish in the blink of an eye. Then pretend she's not your daughter anymore and is a friend of your mothers who doesnt know what she's doing but is bossing you around. Weird how those tiny details change quite a bit.

 

They change nothing at all. That you think they do makes me very glad there is no TAR in real life, where you could torture people but then say, "But it's not real!"

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The correct analogy (and yes, I have used it before. But no one has very successfully refuted it):

 

My teenage daughter has a tendancy to walk home alone, through a dangerous neighborhood. This concerns me, and I wish to make her stop. So I recruit a couple of my friends, who waylay her on her next trip through the neighborhood, drag her into an alley, and tear off her clothes. She is of course terrified, and never again walks home alone through a dangerous neighborhood.

 

Am I a good parent?

 

Or even better:

 

My teenage daughter has a tendancy to walk home alone, through a dangerous neighborhood. This concerns me, and I wish to make her stop. Also, this neighborhood is home to my piece on the side, and I am concerned that my daughter will see me there and tell my wife. So I recruit a couple of my friends, who waylay her on her next trip through the neighborhood, drag her into an alley, and tear off her clothes. She is of course terrified, and never again walks home alone through a dangerous neighborhood, and my wife never finds out that I am getting a little strange.

 

Am I a good parent?

 

Note that in neither of these scenarios does it matter that the rapists were not "real", and that my daughter was never in actual danger of being raped. Is my behavior appropriate?

 

If you say yes, you're a nut. If no, just acknowledge that even if you won't accept any other criticism of Egwene, her conduct in this instance was inexcusable.

 

The difference as others have pointed out to you over the years is first it is ridiculous using the second example to in any way associate something positive like love of learning to having a "piece on the side". The most important point however is regardless of them being your friends you have zero control over their independent actions. It is a far different situation if you take into account Nyn's own reactions control how your friends act and that you can wish them away with a thought.

 

Again to be clear this is her lowest moment. There is no excuse, however Egwene did atone for her lie and Nynaeve doesn't hold it against her in the slightest.

 

I assure you, my piece on the side is very posiitve.

 

And "love of learning?" Come on. She didn't want to be punished.

Edited by randsc

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Neophyte, I would continue this discussion with you. But predictably, Egwene has been compared to a father arranging to sexually assault his daughter, and we've seen someone say Egwene enjoyed "torturing" Nynaeve. The nuance in our discussion has been destroyed. Maybe we can continue ours some other time. I'm bowing out of this.

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If you cut away all the fat, all Egwene did was give Nynaeve a BAD DREAM or a few moments. Pretty sure that's not "inexcusable". It's just childish.

 

People who are being waterboarded aren't actually in danger of drowning.

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