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Daniel Hill

Egwene will die

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Save yourself the time, and gate out of this discussion now. You're not going to get anything resembling rational discussion on this issue. This is the issue where teenage behavior gets compared to the various horrendous actions of the Foresaken, but only in the case of Egwene.

Edited by fionwe1987

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Save yourself the time, and gate out of this discussion now. You're not going to get anything resembling rational discussion on this issue. This is the issue where teenage behavior gets compared to the various horrendous actions of the Foresaken, but only in the case of Egwene.

 

Because summoning a pack of thugs who proceed to tear at their target's clothing in a manner akin to sexual assualt is simply teenage behavior, right.

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She wasn't maliciously bullying her, she was illustrating the very real, omnipresent dangers of TAR. Running into a pack of rogue nightmarerapists is indeed a possibility, and likely a much more effective manner of demonstrating the dangers for her as opposed to, say, summoning things that would just physically intimidate/threaten her. Nynaeve is stronger than that and more stubborn than that, it would do absolutely nothing to put the fear of the Light into the girl. Some nasty, randy men pawing at her while she's powerless to stop it, though, is something else entirely, given how Nynaeve is.

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Save yourself the time, and gate out of this discussion now. You're not going to get anything resembling rational discussion on this issue. This is the issue where teenage behavior gets compared to the various horrendous actions of the Foresaken, but only in the case of Egwene.

 

Because summoning a pack of thugs who proceed to tear at their target's clothing in a manner akin to sexual assualt is simply teenage behavior, right.

Not what she did, though.

 

I made these, and unmade them, but even I have trouble with those I just find. And I did not try to hold them, Nynaeve. If you

knew how to unmake them, you could have."

 

Egwene made the brutes. She didn't hold them, and didn't instruct them. What they did was all based on Nynaeve's projected fears.

 

I'm not saying this absolves Egwene, but nor was it "sexual assault". :rolleyes:

Edited by fionwe1987

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She wasn't maliciously bullying her, she was illustrating the very real, omnipresent dangers of TAR. Running into a pack of rogue nightmarerapists is indeed a possibility, and likely a much more effective manner of demonstrating the dangers for her as opposed to, say, summoning things that would just physically intimidate/threaten her. Nynaeve is stronger than that and more stubborn than that, it would do absolutely nothing to put the fear of the Light into the girl. Some nasty, randy men pawing at her while she's powerless to stop it, though, is something else entirely, given how Nynaeve is.

 

Nonono, that wasn't the intention at all. Egwene thinks to herself in her next POV scene that the only reason she did that was to deflect Nynaeve's questions about whether she had permission to be in T.A.R herself. Which she didn't, as a matter of fact - she herself was still not fully trained and as such had no authority to punish Nynaeve for coming into the Dream in any case.

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Egwene is a snooty bitch that definitely could have been nicer to her friends at times, but I found her situation to be very realistic given the position of authority she was thrust into at such a young age against so many people who never intended for her to function as an actual authority figure.

 

Frankly, it's some of the best writing in the entire series. The fact that she actually IS so unlikable is testament to how well written the character is. Having been in a position of leadership at a younger age myself, I can say that it is very difficult and you essentially end up doing exactly what Egwene did. You alienate your friends because you can't be seen as their friend anymore in the work environment and actually need to discipline them at times. That slowly seeps over to your life out of work as well. There is a reason that leadership is described as extremely lonely.

 

Egwene is good shit - she's just very realistic whereas most of the other characters fit firmly into a fantasy world.

Edited by Mark D

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Verin was the only good one. Lots of people bring up Ingtar and I might have agreed with that if he had been better developed.

Melindhra, Nalesean, Hopwil, Fedwin Morr, Jain Farstrider, all very well done.

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Verin was the only good one. Lots of people bring up Ingtar and I might have agreed with that if he had been better developed.

Melindhra, Nalesean, Hopwil, Fedwin Morr, Jain Farstrider, all very well done.

 

I honestly didn't care about the deaths of any of those characters except -perhaps- Jain Farstrider. Most of those are barely secondary characters to begin with who barely recieved any development at all. If those characters had all recieved the same development as Verin, if we had seen their thoughts, hopes and dreams as we do other major characters then I would agree with you.

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Save yourself the time, and gate out of this discussion now. You're not going to get anything resembling rational discussion on this issue. This is the issue where teenage behavior gets compared to the various horrendous actions of the Foresaken, but only in the case of Egwene.

 

Because summoning a pack of thugs who proceed to tear at their target's clothing in a manner akin to sexual assualt is simply teenage behavior, right.

Not what she did, though.

 

I made these, and unmade them, but even I have trouble with those I just find. And I did not try to hold them, Nynaeve. If you

knew how to unmake them, you could have."

 

Egwene made the brutes. She didn't hold them, and didn't instruct them. What they did was all based on Nynaeve's projected fears.

 

I'm not saying this absolves Egwene, but nor was it "sexual assault". :rolleyes:

 

Egwene loosed them. She's responsible for their existence. Whatever they do afterwards is certainly her fault. Victim blaming is disgusting at the best of times.

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Egwene loosed them. She's responsible for their existence. Whatever they do afterwards is certainly her fault. Victim blaming is disgusting at the best of times.

As Egwene made clear, she was not responsible for their existence. Only their creation.

Egwene loosed two brutes on Nynaeve. Nynaeve, naturally, was filled with horror. As is the way of TAR, that horror only strengthened the apparitions and made them do exactly what Nynaeve feared. I'm not blaming Nynaeve. I'm saying that while you can blame Egwene for loosing the brutes, you can't blame her for what they did in response to Nynaeve's thoughts. Nynaeve's reaction is entirely natural, and hardly something anyone blames her for.

Edited by fionwe1987

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Egwene loosed them. She's responsible for their existence. Whatever they do afterwards is certainly her fault. Victim blaming is disgusting at the best of times.

Egwene loosed two brutes on Nynaeve. Nynaeve, naturally, was filled with horror. As is the way of TAR, that horror only strengthened the apparitions and made them do exactly what Nynaeve feared. I'm not blaming Nynaeve. I'm saying that while you can blame Egwene for loosing the brutes, you can't blame her for what they did in response to Nynaeve's thoughts. Nynaeve's reaction is entirely natural, and hardly something anyone blames her for.

 

Actually, in most legal systems, you could blame Egwene for what they did. Since she deliberately created them, with the purpose of teaching Nynaeve a lesson, whether she specifically instructed them how to act or not she would be legally (and in my mind is morally) responsible for the results.

 

I'm not normally with the Egwene-haters, but this particular example was pretty egregious.

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Egwene loosed them. She's responsible for their existence. Whatever they do afterwards is certainly her fault. Victim blaming is disgusting at the best of times.

Egwene loosed two brutes on Nynaeve. Nynaeve, naturally, was filled with horror. As is the way of TAR, that horror only strengthened the apparitions and made them do exactly what Nynaeve feared. I'm not blaming Nynaeve. I'm saying that while you can blame Egwene for loosing the brutes, you can't blame her for what they did in response to Nynaeve's thoughts. Nynaeve's reaction is entirely natural, and hardly something anyone blames her for.

 

Actually, in most legal systems, you could blame Egwene for what they did. Since she deliberately created them, with the purpose of teaching Nynaeve a lesson, whether she specifically instructed them how to act or not she would be legally (and in my mind is morally) responsible for the results.

 

I'm not normally with the Egwene-haters, but this particular example was pretty egregious.

That's like saying that if I gave you some gasoline to emphasize its dangers, and you lit it on fire by accidentally throwing a match at it, I'm responsible for the fire. If you were a child, that would be true. But not otherwise.

 

That said, I do agree that this was a low point for Egwene. She's trying to get rid of Nynaeve's remaining yoke, and is coming to terms with her own growing strength of personality, and she went way too far. But it is also clear that this doesn't start a trend. Egwene realizes she no longer has to bow down to Nynaeve, and when she became Amyrlin, she could simply have reinforced that, but she didn't.

Edited by fionwe1987

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Egwene loosed them. She's responsible for their existence. Whatever they do afterwards is certainly her fault. Victim blaming is disgusting at the best of times.

Egwene loosed two brutes on Nynaeve. Nynaeve, naturally, was filled with horror. As is the way of TAR, that horror only strengthened the apparitions and made them do exactly what Nynaeve feared. I'm not blaming Nynaeve. I'm saying that while you can blame Egwene for loosing the brutes, you can't blame her for what they did in response to Nynaeve's thoughts. Nynaeve's reaction is entirely natural, and hardly something anyone blames her for.

 

Actually, in most legal systems, you could blame Egwene for what they did. Since she deliberately created them, with the purpose of teaching Nynaeve a lesson, whether she specifically instructed them how to act or not she would be legally (and in my mind is morally) responsible for the results.

 

I'm not normally with the Egwene-haters, but this particular example was pretty egregious.

That's like saying that if I gave you some gasoline to emphasize its dangers, and you lit it on fire by accidentally throwing a match at it, I'm responsible for the fire. If you were a child, that would be true. But not otherwise.

 

That said, I do agree that this was a low point for Egwene. She's trying to get rid of Nynaeve's remaining yoke, and is coming to terms with her own growing strength of personality, and she went way too far. But it is also clear that this doesn't start a trend. Egwene realizes she no longer has to bow down to Nynaeve, and when she became Amyrlin, she could simply have reinforced that, but she didn't.

 

False analogy. What Egwene did is more like pouring gas all around a person already holding a lit match - Egwene knew what Tel'aran'rhiod was like, and intentionally created a situation with a predictable outcome for a specific purpose.

 

I agree that her actions since have been much better - as evidenced by contrasting this incident with her handling of Nynaeve in their meeting in ToM chapter 14. But her subsequent improvement doesn't change the nature of her previous actions.

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Egwene loosed them. She's responsible for their existence. Whatever they do afterwards is certainly her fault. Victim blaming is disgusting at the best of times.

Egwene loosed two brutes on Nynaeve. Nynaeve, naturally, was filled with horror. As is the way of TAR, that horror only strengthened the apparitions and made them do exactly what Nynaeve feared. I'm not blaming Nynaeve. I'm saying that while you can blame Egwene for loosing the brutes, you can't blame her for what they did in response to Nynaeve's thoughts. Nynaeve's reaction is entirely natural, and hardly something anyone blames her for.

 

Actually, in most legal systems, you could blame Egwene for what they did. Since she deliberately created them, with the purpose of teaching Nynaeve a lesson, whether she specifically instructed them how to act or not she would be legally (and in my mind is morally) responsible for the results.

 

I'm not normally with the Egwene-haters, but this particular example was pretty egregious.

That's like saying that if I gave you some gasoline to emphasize its dangers, and you lit it on fire by accidentally throwing a match at it, I'm responsible for the fire. If you were a child, that would be true. But not otherwise.

 

That said, I do agree that this was a low point for Egwene. She's trying to get rid of Nynaeve's remaining yoke, and is coming to terms with her own growing strength of personality, and she went way too far. But it is also clear that this doesn't start a trend. Egwene realizes she no longer has to bow down to Nynaeve, and when she became Amyrlin, she could simply have reinforced that, but she didn't.

 

False analogy. What Egwene did is more like pouring gas all around a person already holding a lit match - Egwene knew what Tel'aran'rhiod was like, and intentionally created a situation with a predictable outcome for a specific purpose.

It was not predictable. That was the entire point of the "lesson". Egwene had no way of knowing whether Nynaeve would dismiss the apparitions, channel at them, or disappear from there and appear somewhere else. All of those were entirely plausible options that Egwene did nothing to prevent. Same as if I gave you some gas. You can walk far from it. You can douse the area in water, any number of things...

I agree that her actions since have been much better - as evidenced by contrasting this incident with her handling of Nynaeve in their meeting in ToM chapter 14. But her subsequent improvement doesn't change the nature of her previous actions.

Of course not. I'm not saying her future actions change the implications of this one. Only that there is no trend of bullying her friends that others imagine.

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It's Egwene's fault. Actually, in the America legal system - Torts - that's the fragile eggshell rule - you take your victim as you find them. If Egwene created those two brutes to attack Nynaeve - whether or not she knew that Nynaeve's fear would make them more real - she's responsible for whatever happened afterwards.

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It was not predictable. That was the entire point of the "lesson". Egwene had no way of knowing whether Nynaeve would dismiss the apparitions, channel at them, or disappear from there and appear somewhere else. All of those were entirely plausible options that Egwene did nothing to prevent. Same as if I gave you some gas. You can walk far from it. You can douse the area in water, any number of things...

 

Sorry, but the entire purpose of creating them was that she knew that Nynaeve wasn't strong enough, or focused enough to dismiss them. The purpose of the exercise was to cow Nynaeve. Let's review the scene in detail, shall we?

 

From TFoH chapter 15:

 

"There are nightmares walking Tel'aran'rhiod, Nynaeve."

"Will you let me speak?" Nynaeve barked. Or rather, she tried to bark it; there was rather too much frustrated pleading in there to suit her. Any at all would have been too much.

"No, I will not," Egwene said firmly. "Not until you want to say something worth listening to. I said nightmares, and I meant nightmares, Nynaeve. When someone has a nightmare while in Tel'aran'rhiod, it is real too. And sometimes it survives after the dreamer has gone. You just don't realize, do you?"

Suddenly rough hands enveloped Nynaeve's arms. Her head whipped from side to side, eyes bulging. Two huge, ragged men lifted her into the air, faces half-melted ruins of coarse flesh, drooling mouths full of sharp, yellowed teeth. She tried to make them vanish-if a Wise One dreamwalker could, so could she-and One of them ripped her dress open down the front like parchment. The other seized her chin in a horny, callused hand and twisted her face toward him; his head bent toward her, mouth opening. Whether to kiss or bite, she did not know, but she would rather die than allow either. She flailed for saidar and found nothing; it was horror fillingher, not anger. Thick fingernails dug into her cheeks, holding her head steady. Egwene had done this, somehow. Egwene. "Please, Egwene!" It was a squeal, and she was too terrified to care. "Please!"

The men-creatures-vanished, and her feet thudded to the floor. For a moment all she could do was shudder and weep. Hastily she repaired the damage to her dress, but the scratches from long fingernails remained on her neck and chest. Clothing could be mended easily in Tel'aran'rhiod, but whatever happened to a human. . . Her knees shook so badly that it was all she could do to stay upright.

She half-expected Egwene to comfort 'her, and for once she would have accepted it gladly. But the other woman only said, "There are worse things here, but nightmares are bad enough. I made these, and unmade them, but even I have trouble with those I just find. And I did not try to hold them, Nynaeve. If you knew how to unmake them, you could have."

Nynaeve tossed her head angrily, refusing to scrub the tears from her cheeks. "I could have dreamed myself away. To Sheriam's study, or back to my bed." She did not sound sulky. Of course she did not.

"If you had not been too scared spitless to think of it," Egwene said dryly. "Oh, take that sullen look off your face. It looks silly on you."

 

Egwene begins with the end in mind - the whole purpose of the conversation is to demonstrate to Nynaeve that she is ill equipped to deal with the terrors of Tel'aran'rhiod. If Egwene expected her to be able to dismiss the creatures, then summoning them would only have undermined her point, because it would have allowed Nynaeve to say "See, I can handle myself." But she knew that Nynaeve wouldn't be able to - that is the point of the lesson. The outcome was precisely predictable for Egwene.

 

Second, she didn't just create random men, who were subsequently shaped by Nynaeve's terror. Egwene did not passively "loose" them - she created them already in the act of assaulting Nynaeve. They were deliberately inhuman - that is their initial description, not a change wrought on them by Nynaeve's terror. Nynaeve's fear made her unable to dispel them, but Egwene created them with the intent to assault Nynaeve and cause that terror - all with the ultimate purpose of teaching Nynaeve a lesson about her limitations.

 

Egwene's callous attitude at the end of the sequence is particularly disturbing. The entire tone of this incident is, quite possibly, the worst that Egwene ever gets. The sequence is truly indefensible.

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It was not predictable. That was the entire point of the "lesson". Egwene had no way of knowing whether Nynaeve would dismiss the apparitions, channel at them, or disappear from there and appear somewhere else. All of those were entirely plausible options that Egwene did nothing to prevent. Same as if I gave you some gas. You can walk far from it. You can douse the area in water, any number of things...

 

Sorry, but the entire purpose of creating them was that she knew that Nynaeve wasn't strong enough, or focused enough to dismiss them. The purpose of the exercise was to cow Nynaeve. Let's review the scene in detail, shall we?

 

From TFoH chapter 15:

 

"There are nightmares walking Tel'aran'rhiod, Nynaeve."

"Will you let me speak?" Nynaeve barked. Or rather, she tried to bark it; there was rather too much frustrated pleading in there to suit her. Any at all would have been too much.

"No, I will not," Egwene said firmly. "Not until you want to say something worth listening to. I said nightmares, and I meant nightmares, Nynaeve. When someone has a nightmare while in Tel'aran'rhiod, it is real too. And sometimes it survives after the dreamer has gone. You just don't realize, do you?"

Suddenly rough hands enveloped Nynaeve's arms. Her head whipped from side to side, eyes bulging. Two huge, ragged men lifted her into the air, faces half-melted ruins of coarse flesh, drooling mouths full of sharp, yellowed teeth. She tried to make them vanish-if a Wise One dreamwalker could, so could she-and One of them ripped her dress open down the front like parchment. The other seized her chin in a horny, callused hand and twisted her face toward him; his head bent toward her, mouth opening. Whether to kiss or bite, she did not know, but she would rather die than allow either. She flailed for saidar and found nothing; it was horror fillingher, not anger. Thick fingernails dug into her cheeks, holding her head steady. Egwene had done this, somehow. Egwene. "Please, Egwene!" It was a squeal, and she was too terrified to care. "Please!"

The men-creatures-vanished, and her feet thudded to the floor. For a moment all she could do was shudder and weep. Hastily she repaired the damage to her dress, but the scratches from long fingernails remained on her neck and chest. Clothing could be mended easily in Tel'aran'rhiod, but whatever happened to a human. . . Her knees shook so badly that it was all she could do to stay upright.

She half-expected Egwene to comfort 'her, and for once she would have accepted it gladly. But the other woman only said, "There are worse things here, but nightmares are bad enough. I made these, and unmade them, but even I have trouble with those I just find. And I did not try to hold them, Nynaeve. If you knew how to unmake them, you could have."

Nynaeve tossed her head angrily, refusing to scrub the tears from her cheeks. "I could have dreamed myself away. To Sheriam's study, or back to my bed." She did not sound sulky. Of course she did not.

"If you had not been too scared spitless to think of it," Egwene said dryly. "Oh, take that sullen look off your face. It looks silly on you."

 

Egwene begins with the end in mind - the whole purpose of the conversation is to demonstrate to Nynaeve that she is ill equipped to deal with the terrors of Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

I usually find myself defending Egwene but this was indeed a low point. The point of this was to show she is ill equipped but it was also partly covering up for the fact that she herself wasn't supposed to be in Tar.

 

TFoH

"You nearly frightened ten years out of me," Nynaeve muttered. "So the Wise Ones have finally decided to let you come and go as you please? Or is Melaine behind—""You should be frightened," Egwene snapped, color rising in her cheeks. "You are a fool, Nynaeve. A child playing in the barn with a candle."

 

Regardless the scene was quite obviously written to underline Egwene's coming of age and the balance of power shifting between the two. It is hardly the forsaken like act some make it out to be. I've actually seen it argued that Egwene "raped" Nynaeve. :rolleyes:

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I honestly didn't care about the deaths of any of those characters except -perhaps- Jain Farstrider. Most of those are barely secondary characters to begin with who barely recieved any development at all. If those characters had all recieved the same development as Verin, if we had seen their thoughts, hopes and dreams as we do other major characters then I would agree with you.

Perhaps you skimmed over their development, and I agree that some of these were mostly on the peripheral but it was there if you paid attention. But that isn't what you said in the first place, that he did a poor job killing characters. When he does kill characters, he does an excellent job of it, and they are very powerful moments. He just doesn't have as many characters die as some other authors might.

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I usually find myself defending Egwene but this was indeed a low point. The point of this was to show she is ill equipped but it was also partly covering up for the fact that she herself wasn't supposed to be in Tar.

 

TFoH

"You nearly frightened ten years out of me," Nynaeve muttered. "So the Wise Ones have finally decided to let you come and go as you please? Or is Melaine behind—""You should be frightened," Egwene snapped, color rising in her cheeks. "You are a fool, Nynaeve. A child playing in the barn with a candle."

 

Regardless the scene was quite obviously written to underline Egwene's coming of age and the balance of power shifting between the two. It is hardly the forsaken like act some make it out to be. I've actually seen it argued that Egwene "raped" Nynaeve. :rolleyes:

 

You're right about Egwene's motives being less than pure, which adds another sad dimension to the incident. I also agree that it is not equivalent to rape, and yes, equating Egwene with the Forsaken is absurd hyperbole. But it certainly is assault and battery. Depending on her judge and her record, Egwene would be jailed for it in the US. (Not that it is hard to get jailed in the US ...)

 

The cogent point is that Egwene clearly bears responsibility for the entire sequence of events.

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Do you let your child play with a tiger to learn not to mess with cats? No.

 

Do you let your child play with the family cat to learn not to mess with cats? Sure.

 

Why the difference? Because the chances are that the family cat is not going to do irreparable damage to your child. Maybe a scratch on the arm or leg which won't even leave a scar. In doing so, you allow your child to learn the lesson that animals can hurt and should be treated with a proper level of respect. Then when they come across a pitbull loose on the street, they know not to do something stupid and piss it off.

 

Egwene knew that she could fix/stop anything that happened that got too far out of hand. That is simply a form of parenting. Maybe younger readers don't like that approach because they're too close to being the "child" to be able to see it from the parent point of view? Not sure, but it makes sense to me ... only in the understanding that she knew the environment was controllable.

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Egwene knew that she could fix/stop anything that happened that got too far out of hand. That is simply a form of parenting. Maybe younger readers don't like that approach because they're too close to being the "child" to be able to see it from the parent point of view? Not sure, but it makes sense to me ... only in the understanding that she knew the environment was controllable.

 

This is indeed true.

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I usually find myself defending Egwene but this was indeed a low point. The point of this was to show she is ill equipped but it was also partly covering up for the fact that she herself wasn't supposed to be in Tar.

 

TFoH

"You nearly frightened ten years out of me," Nynaeve muttered. "So the Wise Ones have finally decided to let you come and go as you please? Or is Melaine behind—""You should be frightened," Egwene snapped, color rising in her cheeks. "You are a fool, Nynaeve. A child playing in the barn with a candle."

 

Regardless the scene was quite obviously written to underline Egwene's coming of age and the balance of power shifting between the two. It is hardly the forsaken like act some make it out to be. I've actually seen it argued that Egwene "raped" Nynaeve. :rolleyes:

 

You're right about Egwene's motives being less than pure, which adds another sad dimension to the incident. I also agree that it is not equivalent to rape, and yes, equating Egwene with the Forsaken is absurd hyperbole. But it certainly is assault and battery. Depending on her judge and her record, Egwene would be jailed for it in the US. (Not that it is hard to get jailed in the US ...)

 

The cogent point is that Egwene clearly bears responsibility for the entire sequence of events.

 

Wait, we're applying US law and contemporary ideas of morality to Randland now?

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Do you let your child play with a tiger to learn not to mess with cats? No.

 

Do you let your child play with the family cat to learn not to mess with cats? Sure.

 

Why the difference? Because the chances are that the family cat is not going to do irreparable damage to your child. Maybe a scratch on the arm or leg which won't even leave a scar. In doing so, you allow your child to learn the lesson that animals can hurt and should be treated with a proper level of respect. Then when they come across a pitbull loose on the street, they know not to do something stupid and piss it off.

 

Egwene knew that she could fix/stop anything that happened that got too far out of hand. That is simply a form of parenting. Maybe younger readers don't like that approach because they're too close to being the "child" to be able to see it from the parent point of view? Not sure, but it makes sense to me ... only in the understanding that she knew the environment was controllable.

I don't know about you, but if a friend of mine tries to parent me as if I am a small child, I'd be pretty angry and feel insulted. Especially if this friend is much younger than myself and still a teenager, as Egwene is in this case.

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Do you let your child play with a tiger to learn not to mess with cats? No.

 

Do you let your child play with the family cat to learn not to mess with cats? Sure.

 

Why the difference? Because the chances are that the family cat is not going to do irreparable damage to your child. Maybe a scratch on the arm or leg which won't even leave a scar. In doing so, you allow your child to learn the lesson that animals can hurt and should be treated with a proper level of respect. Then when they come across a pitbull loose on the street, they know not to do something stupid and piss it off.

 

Egwene knew that she could fix/stop anything that happened that got too far out of hand. That is simply a form of parenting. Maybe younger readers don't like that approach because they're too close to being the "child" to be able to see it from the parent point of view? Not sure, but it makes sense to me ... only in the understanding that she knew the environment was controllable.

I don't know about you, but if a friend of mine tries to parent me as if I am a small child, I'd be pretty angry and feel insulted. Especially if this friend is much younger than myself and still a teenager, as Egwene is in this case.

 

You're running up and down the freeway, blindfolded, insisting that you'll be able to hear oncoming traffic in time to get out of its way. I call my friend up to sneak his car up close to you and rev the engine because you're not listening to the fact that you're being an idiot no matter how many times I tell you. Am I wrong, and "parenting" you, even if you're twenty years my senior?

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