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Mazrim Taim aka "Guaire Amalason"


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Several people have mentioned that Taim is just Taim and is just a "minor" character. Do you really think that someone with so much mystery surrounding them, someone who has taken control of one of the most powerful factions in all of WoT the Black Tower, someone who has turned hundreds of the most powerful of the Black Tower's initiates to the dark, and someone who was introduced as a Forsaken by none other then Moridin himself.....is really JUST a minor character????

 

I'm not sure the exact number but I think Taim has only appears in four or five chapters in the entire series.

 

1. Recruited

2. Rand visits black tower

3. Dumai wells

4. Visiting rand in Caemlyn?

5. Laughing evilly with friends at Black Tower.

 

In a series as big as this it's not much. He's interesting but still just a minor character.

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Several people have mentioned that Taim is just Taim and is just a "minor" character. Do you really think that someone with so much mystery surrounding them, someone who has taken control of one of the most powerful factions in all of WoT the Black Tower, someone who has turned hundreds of the most powerful of the Black Tower's initiates to the dark, and someone who was introduced as a Forsaken by none other then Moridin himself.....is really JUST a minor character????

 

I'm not sure the exact number but I think Taim has only appears in four or five chapters in the entire series.

 

1. Recruited

2. Rand visits black tower

3. Dumai wells

4. Visiting rand in Caemlyn?

5. Laughing evilly with friends at Black Tower.

 

In a series as big as this it's not much. He's interesting but still just a minor character.

 

I believe he appears in 12 chapters.

Edited by Master Ablar
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Semi instigated the Seanchan stuff, what I want to know is who is driving Galgan now? Galgan was loyal back when Suroth was still trying to run things.

 

Galgan may well still be quite loyal. The High Blood play ... games, for lack of a better word ... with people; sending incompetent assassins isn't necessarily disloyal in the Seanchan High Blood People Are Pawns Playbook.

 

That's a pretty big assumption. Given the Seanchans belief in honor and respect/reverence towards their betters, I think sending assassins after the Empress is a bit too forward and offensive to be tolerated whatsoever.

 

Um .. Fortuona wonders to herself if Mat will actually be loyal - as in like "weird, I wonder what it will be like to have a loyal Prince of the Ravens?" She seems to expect Galgan to try something.

 

The commoners among the Seanchan would never dream of doing anything to the Empress, or any of the Blood really. But the Blood, and especially the High Blood, plot to kill each other all the time. The tricky part is the in between stuff, the posturing. Galgan isn't really trying to kill her - it appears to be common knowledge (or James' Jame's special knowledge) that the assassins aren't intended to succeed. Galgan is just playing politics.

 

That doesn't mean he might not be dangerous. It just means that he doesn't appear to be actively disloyal at the moment. Mat, however, doesn't seem aware of that (for obvious reasons).

 

Ya I get what youre saying but I really dont see the evidence in the books to suggest that as a realistic explanation.

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Semi instigated the Seanchan stuff, what I want to know is who is driving Galgan now? Galgan was loyal back when Suroth was still trying to run things.

 

Galgan may well still be quite loyal. The High Blood play ... games, for lack of a better word ... with people; sending incompetent assassins isn't necessarily disloyal in the Seanchan High Blood People Are Pawns Playbook.

 

That's a pretty big assumption. Given the Seanchans belief in honor and respect/reverence towards their betters, I think sending assassins after the Empress is a bit too forward and offensive to be tolerated whatsoever.

 

Um .. Fortuona wonders to herself if Mat will actually be loyal - as in like "weird, I wonder what it will be like to have a loyal Prince of the Ravens?" She seems to expect Galgan to try something.

 

The commoners among the Seanchan would never dream of doing anything to the Empress, or any of the Blood really. But the Blood, and especially the High Blood, plot to kill each other all the time. The tricky part is the in between stuff, the posturing. Galgan isn't really trying to kill her - it appears to be common knowledge (or James' Jame's special knowledge) that the assassins aren't intended to succeed. Galgan is just playing politics.

 

That doesn't mean he might not be dangerous. It just means that he doesn't appear to be actively disloyal at the moment. Mat, however, doesn't seem aware of that (for obvious reasons).

 

Ya I get what youre saying but I really dont see the evidence in the books to suggest that as a realistic explanation.

 

I'll be happy to provide it for you:

 

Fortuona's thoughts, from Towers of Midnight chapter 47:

 

So far as she knew, since his raising, Beslan hadn't made any plans to have her assassinated. Remarkable. Any Seanchan would have immediately begun scheming. Some would have tried an assassination; others would have decided to make only plans, but remain supportive. But all would have considered killing her.

 

You'll note first her surprise at Beslan's loyalty, then her thought that "Any Seanchan [who was raised to the High Blood like Beslan] would have immediately begun scheming ... all would have considered killing her."

 

Later, in that same chapter:

 

Galgan clasped his hands behind his back. He was a curious one. He'd met with assassins in the city, and had inquired about the cost for having Fortuona killed. Then, he'd had each of the men who quoted him a price executed. A very subtle maneuver—it was meant to show that she should consider him a threat, as he was not afraid of meeting with assassins. However,

it was also a visible sign of loyalty. I follow you for now, the move said, but I am watching, and I am ambitious.

 

By making inquiries with assassins, Galgan is sending her a message. The message is that she should consider him a threat, but he's loyal for now. This is how the High Blood send their little subtle messages to each other. In many ways, it is a game, and it is what Fortuona both expects and understands.

 

Next paragraph:

 

 

In many ways, his careful maneuvering was more comforting to her than Beslan's apparently unwavering loyalty. The first, she could anticipate. The second . . . well, she wasn't certain what to make of it yet. Would Matrim be equally loyal? What would it be like, to have a Prince of the Ravens whom she did not have to plot against? It seemed almost a fantasy, the type of tale told to common children to make them dream of an impossible marriage.

She is stunned to consider that Mat might actually be loyal. It is so foreign to her that it seems like a fairy tale.

 

In the context of that kind of society, hiring assassins that are meant to fail is just another way of sending a message, not an act of disloyalty. To quote Jame's Seanchan assessment of the situation from the Chapter 11 preview of A Memory of Light:

 

“This isn’t what you think,” Jame said. “He isn’t hiring the best assassins. They’re foreigners, so they aren’t meant to succeed.”

 

Galgan isn't actively disloyal, at least not yet. He's just sending Fortuona a different kind of subtle, Seanchan-style message.

 

I hope that you've enjoyed this episode of "evidence in the books."

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Several people have mentioned that Taim is just Taim and is just a "minor" character. Do you really think that someone with so much mystery surrounding them, someone who has taken control of one of the most powerful factions in all of WoT the Black Tower, someone who has turned hundreds of the most powerful of the Black Tower's initiates to the dark, and someone who was introduced as a Forsaken by none other then Moridin himself.....is really JUST a minor character????

 

I'm not sure the exact number but I think Taim has only appears in four or five chapters in the entire series.

 

1. Recruited

2. Rand visits black tower

3. Dumai wells

4. Visiting rand in Caemlyn?

5. Laughing evilly with friends at Black Tower.

 

In a series as big as this it's not much. He's interesting but still just a minor character.

 

I believe he appears in 12 chapters.

But was I roughly correct about the scenes he's in? They may have been spread over a few chapters.

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an okay theory, if unlikely. Taim surfaces in tGH as a false dragon in Saldaea, and is described to look like a Saldaean. During this time frame, it is unlikely that Amalason's soul had been transmigrated since only one seal was broken and the prison is fairly strong. He is then captured due to the events at the end of tGH, and escapes in tSR. Ishamael was dead and had not yet resurfaced so he couldn't have broken him free. That was likely just the Black Ajah carrying out a plan. Next, Amalason wouldn't have been put into a stasis box. He would have been put in a vacuole, which according to moghediens PoV in COS, experiments could be done in because time moves slower or faster in them. The only problem is that I thought that Amalason, like all other channeling false dragons, was severed. So, if Amalason had been put in a vacuole then brought out to be Mazrim Taim, he'd be unable to channel since not even Moridin knew about healing severing. And also, I agree that the timelines for Guaire and Ishamaels time on earth didn't coincide.

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an okay theory, if unlikely. Taim surfaces in tGH as a false dragon in Saldaea, and is described to look like a Saldaean. During this time frame, it is unlikely that Amalason's soul had been transmigrated since only one seal was broken and the prison is fairly strong. He is then captured due to the events at the end of tGH, and escapes in tSR. Ishamael was dead and had not yet resurfaced so he couldn't have broken him free. That was likely just the Black Ajah carrying out a plan. Next, Amalason wouldn't have been put into a stasis box. He would have been put in a vacuole, which according to moghediens PoV in COS, experiments could be done in because time moves slower or faster in them. The only problem is that I thought that Amalason, like all other channeling false dragons, was severed. So, if Amalason had been put in a vacuole then brought out to be Mazrim Taim, he'd be unable to channel since not even Moridin knew about healing severing. And also, I agree that the timelines for Guaire and Ishamaels time on earth didn't coincide.

 

All true. As well, the Dark Lord can't transmigrate just any soul. From what we've seen he can only pull out those that have forsaken the light, and maybe even only forsaken themselves. If it was possible for him to transmigrate any important lackey he would be doing it left and right to all the most important Friends of the Dark. And you are right, Amalason was gentled at the white tower.

 

However as a side note, it's been bandied about that at least some of the Red Ajah, and rememeber the Red has the MOST Darkfriends of per capita of any Ajah, have been setting up false Dragons for quite some time now, only to "bring them down". While I don't believe the theory this thread is positing because it doesn't make sense in light of things form the prologue, it's possible that the Red's have been pretending to Gentle men and really just letting them go if they are False Dragons.

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an okay theory, if unlikely. Taim surfaces in tGH as a false dragon in Saldaea, and is described to look like a Saldaean. During this time frame, it is unlikely that Amalason's soul had been transmigrated since only one seal was broken and the prison is fairly strong. He is then captured due to the events at the end of tGH, and escapes in tSR. Ishamael was dead and had not yet resurfaced so he couldn't have broken him free. That was likely just the Black Ajah carrying out a plan. Next, Amalason wouldn't have been put into a stasis box. He would have been put in a vacuole, which according to moghediens PoV in COS, experiments could be done in because time moves slower or faster in them. The only problem is that I thought that Amalason, like all other channeling false dragons, was severed. So, if Amalason had been put in a vacuole then brought out to be Mazrim Taim, he'd be unable to channel since not even Moridin knew about healing severing. And also, I agree that the timelines for Guaire and Ishamaels time on earth didn't coincide.

 

All true. As well, the Dark Lord can't transmigrate just any soul. From what we've seen he can only pull out those that have forsaken the light, and maybe even only forsaken themselves. If it was possible for him to transmigrate any important lackey he would be doing it left and right to all the most important Friends of the Dark. And you are right, Amalason was gentled at the white tower.

 

However as a side note, it's been bandied about that at least some of the Red Ajah, and rememeber the Red has the MOST Darkfriends of per capita of any Ajah, have been setting up false Dragons for quite some time now, only to "bring them down". While I don't believe the theory this thread is positing because it doesn't make sense in light of things form the prologue, it's possible that the Red's have been pretending to Gentle men and really just letting them go if they are False Dragons.

Elaida can't lie and she was directly involved in the gentling (Alviarin's convo with Elaida).

Also Cadsuane's references and Moiraine's suggests that gentling happened without sanction or trial and was done clandestinely- not that the Reds pretended to gentle men.

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I think a number of the major characters of the series are "reborn" people, not just Rand. Many have remarked upon how Elayne and Ilyena are nearly anagrams, similar in description, etc. Egwene appears to be very much the "Shadow Cutter" lady discussed in the Big Book of WoT.

 

The Foresaken were not available to be reborn, because they were locked away in the DO's prison. What does the pattern do then? To a certain degree I believe that this accounts for their spectacular run of fail up to this point -- they just don't belong in the current age and so despite their best efforst they get wiped out.

 

But, I think a few of them belonged in this age and the pattern tries to come up with a substitute. Taim is exhibit A. He's so much like Demandred many people believed him to BE Demandred. But, in actuality Taim is a nutri-Demandred -- a soul the pattern gave the same kinds of choices to that Demandred had and made the same choices that Demandred did.

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  • 2 weeks later...

this would be an interesting theory except for the fact that Amalasan was gentled (BWB). This rules out any transmigration, stasis box or vacuole theories and so on. I suppose it might be possible that Taim is Amalasan reborn but that would have no practical effect as he wouldn't know it and would not remember anything about his past life.

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This is my first post ever to dragonmount, so I am eager to get everyone's opinion on this. Enjoy!

 

Welcome. Very lucidly put for such a obscure hypothesis! I love these after all these years and this close to the end that readers are still putting forth new theories and sluething things out. :jordan:

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