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Prologue Spoilers - Emarin


Luckers
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Okay, everyone be calm, I'm bringing up the gay character in aMoL question. As some of you know Brandon mentioned a while back that there was a character in TofM who was gay, but the scene involving it got pushed back to aMoL. Now lets not got back into whether that was right or not--we have a standing instant lock in place for if that subject gets out of hand--this is purely about the fact of identifying him--or rather, them. I believe Emarin (who is of course actually Algarin).

 

Firstly, it fits--we know the Androl scene was originally intended for TofM, just as we know the scene revealing the gay character was originally meant for TofM before being relocated. Secondly it was always pretty much a given that the gay character would be at the Black Tower given that Jordan always offered the logic that we hadn't seen inside institutions where men lived closely together as being a big reason as to why we havn't seen any gay male characters active in the past books.

 

From there we also know that the character Brandon spoke of was one of Jordan's characters--and Algarin is probably the big one that's been shown in a new light and new circumstances.

 

What I picked up on though that made me more or less assume it as fact--which, looking back, was actually fairly loose--was this.

 

As he sat down a rap on the door announced the entrance of Emarin and Canler. Although both were wet from the rain, they were nearly as opposite as men could be. One was tall, refined and careful, the other crotchety and prone to gossip. They had found common ground, somewhere, and seemed to enjoy one another's company.

 

So yes, loose, but also much in the form of sexuality in the wheel--opposites attracting, and so forth. And frankly I'd like for it to be handled as lightly as this.

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If you're right and this is what there is to it, I'm astounded that Brandon has this feathery touch in his repertoire. He should have used it 1000 times more than he did.

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I'm not so sure. Brandon said that he chose this gay character because the notes didn't indicate anything one way or the other (though later he said that the character's sexual orientation was in the notes). But Algarin was married, and had children. And okay, maybe he's bi, but that's not what Brandon said. And maybe he just married to have children, but that doesn't seem to fit with the first statement (which I believe is the true one). And finally, this would be two gay male characters rather than one.

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Okay, everyone be calm, I'm bringing up the gay character in aMoL question. As some of you know Brandon mentioned a while back that there was a character in TofM who was gay, but the scene involving it got pushed back to aMoL. Now lets not got back into whether that was right or not--we have a standing instant lock in place for if that subject gets out of hand--this is purely about the fact of identifying him--or rather, them. I believe Emarin (who is of course actually Algarin).

 

I like the idea of it being two older men; it's a nice change from RJ's lesbians/pillow friends who were usually young-looking and pretty. It was said in CoT that Algarin had children (and was presumably married at one point), which of course doesn't mean he can't be gay or bisexual, and Canler was also said to have family living at the Black Tower. Unlike many of the White Tower's pillow friends, they're not hormonal teenagers who haven't yet had any experience with the opposite sex.

 

However, if this is the case, I wish we'd gotten a stronger indication than "they seemed to enjoy one another's company." I don't think many people would have taken that to mean anything besides friendship unless they had been clued into the fact that there would be a gay couple, and no other candidates were available. It's (and this is not a complaint I usually make about Brandon's writing :p) a bit too subtle for my liking.

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If I'm right, I'm coining the phrase 'A Friend of Cadsuane' as the male term for a pillowfriend. I used to like Bedfellows, but I like this much better.

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Edit:

 

I originally thought Algarin was the gay guy, and still do, it is a sound theory, but what about Canler when Androl thinks that he would be hesitant because his family would be hostages?

 

It is handled pretty well, if that will be the reference, but it raises a heap of questions that would make the whole thing a bit ham-fisted.

 

Algarin is perfectly normal for me. A guy who has lived live, he has had children and a wife - possibly beacuse of noble duty- who are gone now, and he either is openly homosexual now that his wife and children are gone, or he has newly discovered his feelings.

 

Canler is the problem for me. The guy has a family he brings to the Black Tower, which suggests a wife and/or children. I don't see the need to even raise the question, it takes away from the purpose, to me, so that he is more of a cheating husband having an affair. I mean, perfectly valid feelings, many men do get married and realise they are gay, but for something that is supposed to just be an aknowledgement, I would prefer it to be something much more "direct" to the point. That this guy is gay and everyone is fine with it, no drama.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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It's not Androl, there is subtle hints that Androl and Pevara will end up together.

 

Yes, quite likely from what has been written. Bonded, I think would be certain. I was surprised to read the prologue with them not yet bonded. Lovers? Yes, I'd say it's very likely. The mistrust between them (especially from Pevara's ingrained Red attitudes) thawing slowly into admiration...

 

Yes, they do appear headed in that direction.

 

@Luckers - I think you've spotted the gay male(s) here, and I do like the light touch. But is the touch too light? If the exploration goes no further than this, it's a red herring. I figure writing is about making bold choices and living or dying (as an author) with the consequences. Right now, they're really just companions / comrades in arms.

 

If you are right, I hope that we read a little more of their story.

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Eh I think its kind of stupid to insert a gay character into the series anyways just for the sake of having one. It's been mentioned before that gay/lesbianism exists in the WoT world and I think that's plenty. Why do we have to have someone in the story who is confirmed gay without any purpose? Just really pointless to do so IMO. Especially this late in the series.

Edited by Mark D
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I am of the opinion that no one in world would notice a gay character. Women in WoT think all men are slightly retarded and would think two men hanging around each other all the time must hate each other. Men in WoT can't even tell when they themselves like some, let alone someone else.

 

With that reasoning, pretty much any secondary character could be gay and no PoV would ever pick up on it.

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Good point on Canler; that means both of Luckers' proposed gay characters are established heteros. And Brandon said gay, not bi, and he established that the notes didn't say either way. Androl is still the best bet IMO; I didn't get the slightest hint of romance between him and Pevara. Warder bond, probably. Sex, highly unlikely.

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Good point on Canler; that means both of Luckers' proposed gay characters are established heteros. And Brandon said gay, not bi, and he established that the notes didn't say either way. Androl is still the best bet IMO; I didn't get the slightest hint of romance between him and Pevara. Warder bond, probably. Sex, highly unlikely.

 

One can have been in previous heterosexual relationships then determine that they are in fact gay without ever being bisexual.

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Good point on Canler; that means both of Luckers' proposed gay characters are established heteros. And Brandon said gay, not bi, and he established that the notes didn't say either way. Androl is still the best bet IMO; I didn't get the slightest hint of romance between him and Pevara. Warder bond, probably. Sex, highly unlikely.

Actually, there were multiple instances of them being surprised at each other, of Androl admiring Pevara's calm control, of her being surprised at him being the weakest channeler (yet the leader), etc. all of which point to a budding romance.

 

On the other hand, the mere act of marriage and having children doesn't make a gay person bi.

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Good point on Canler; that means both of Luckers' proposed gay characters are established heteros. And Brandon said gay, not bi, and he established that the notes didn't say either way. Androl is still the best bet IMO; I didn't get the slightest hint of romance between him and Pevara. Warder bond, probably. Sex, highly unlikely.

 

One can have been in previous heterosexual relationships then determine that they are in fact gay without ever being bisexual.

 

It's far less likely in a world where there is no prejudice against homosexuality. No reason for denial. Aside from that, again, I don't see why Brandon would say that the notes didn't specify sexuality in the case of married men. Why choose married men when there are characters who truly have no designated orientation, like Androl?

Edited by Terez
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Good point on Canler; that means both of Luckers' proposed gay characters are established heteros. And Brandon said gay, not bi, and he established that the notes didn't say either way. Androl is still the best bet IMO; I didn't get the slightest hint of romance between him and Pevara. Warder bond, probably. Sex, highly unlikely.

 

One can have been in previous heterosexual relationships then determine that they are in fact gay without ever being bisexual.

 

It's far less likely in a world where there is no prejudice against homosexuality. No reason for denial. Aside from that, again, I don't see why Brandon would say that the notes didn't specify sexuality in the case of married men. Why choose married men when there are characters who truly have no designated orientation, like Androl?

 

Because we don't know that Androl truly has no designation. For all we know the notes could say Androl isn't oriented in either way. I still believe that Androl and Pevara are headed down the path though. The hints are way more obvious then the Moiraine and Thom hints. Pevara asking around about Androl, Androl knowing about it. The interactions between the two of them.

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Good point on Canler; that means both of Luckers' proposed gay characters are established heteros. And Brandon said gay, not bi, and he established that the notes didn't say either way. Androl is still the best bet IMO; I didn't get the slightest hint of romance between him and Pevara. Warder bond, probably. Sex, highly unlikely.

 

One can have been in previous heterosexual relationships then determine that they are in fact gay without ever being bisexual.

 

It's far less likely in a world where there is no prejudice against homosexuality. No reason for denial. Aside from that, again, I don't see why Brandon would say that the notes didn't specify sexuality in the case of married men. Why choose married men when there are characters who truly have no designated orientation, like Androl?

 

Because we don't know that Androl truly has no designation.

 

So? That has nothing to do with my point, which is that Emarin and Canler do.

 

The hints are way more obvious then the Moiraine and Thom hints.

 

Not hardly.

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Good point on Canler; that means both of Luckers' proposed gay characters are established heteros. And Brandon said gay, not bi, and he established that the notes didn't say either way. Androl is still the best bet IMO; I didn't get the slightest hint of romance between him and Pevara. Warder bond, probably. Sex, highly unlikely.

 

One can have been in previous heterosexual relationships then determine that they are in fact gay without ever being bisexual.

 

It's far less likely in a world where there is no prejudice against homosexuality. No reason for denial. Aside from that, again, I don't see why Brandon would say that the notes didn't specify sexuality in the case of married men. Why choose married men when there are characters who truly have no designated orientation, like Androl?

 

Because we don't know that Androl truly has no designation. For all we know the notes could say Androl isn't oriented in either way. I still believe that Androl and Pevara are headed down the path though. The hints are way more obvious then the Moiraine and Thom hints. Pevara asking around about Androl, Androl knowing about it. The interactions between the two of them.

 

First thing that popped in to my head too; hopefully they both survive the BT so we know for sure.

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The Moiraine and Thom hints were fairly obvious. The only surprising bit about that was that it seemed like they never had any significant length of time together to develop a relationship beyond initial attraction.

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IMO the Moiraine + Lan hints were stronger than the Androl + Pevara hints. The Moiraine + Thom hints were blatantly romantic/sexual.

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IMO the Moiraine + Lan hints were stronger than the Androl + Pevara hints. The Moiraine + Thom hints were blatantly romantic/sexual.

But they had several scenes. We've had one scene between Pevara and Androl, and in that, the hints for romantic intererest are fairly strong. Add in a dose of Sanderson Unsubtlety Syndrome and it does seem more "obvious".

 

ETA: What about Talmanes btw? Not that there were hints here, but the idea may be to have him be this big hero then reveal him as a gay guy. Do we know if he's heterosexual? Also, I always thought Jimar Chubain was also a likely candidate.

Edited by fionwe1987
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IMO the Moiraine + Lan hints were stronger than the Androl + Pevara hints. The Moiraine + Thom hints were blatantly romantic/sexual.

 

Moiraine and Thom seemed more obvious after a few scenes, probably more so in tGH. But just this one interaction between Pevara and Androl, all I could think was "Oh Pevara's totally gonna open up a gateway for Androl if you know what I'm sayin"

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It's far less likely in a world where there is no prejudice against homosexuality. No reason for denial. Aside from that, again, I don't see why Brandon would say that the notes didn't specify sexuality in the case of married men. Why choose married men when there are characters who truly have no designated orientation, like Androl?

 

I agree. My problem with it is the convolution of the scenario. Why would Brandon choose to pick two characters who have a history of hetrosexual interactions (one of them still ongoing), and with no indication that they are homosexual, go and make them suddenly gay? It happens in real life, but it is a very poor option when it is messing with the history and story of the character, for no more than a nod of the head to the readers with a male homosexual.

 

It makes more sense to have someone with no hint to their sexual preference in the books, there is no lack of single male Asha'man who have shown no interest in women we have seen.

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IMO the Moiraine + Lan hints were stronger than the Androl + Pevara hints. The Moiraine + Thom hints were blatantly romantic/sexual.

But they had several scenes. We've had one scene between Pevara and Androl, and in that, the hints for romantic intererest are fairly strong. Add in a dose of Sanderson Unsubtlety Syndrome and it does seem more "obvious".

 

ETA: What about Talmanes btw? Not that there were hints here, but the idea may be to have him be this big hero then reveal him as a gay guy. Do we know if he's heterosexual? Also, I always thought Jimar Chubain was also a likely candidate.

 

We don't know for sure about Talmanes, but Mat seems to think he likes women. Mat scopes out a maid and think that "she would be good for Talmanes." So I think they've been out wenching before.

 

Frankly, I hope that there isn't some big reveal just for the purpose of saying "Look, here's a gay dude!" That would be silly. If a character happens to be gay, then fine - it shouldn't be that big a deal.

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