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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
TootThatHorn

CAUTION: Super Spoiler Prologue discussion; Leave the cops out of it :)

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The constraints that held them did not hold him.

Moghedien told us that channeling in Thakan'dar is forbidden by the DO. Perhaps some of that restriction extends to the Town (say, drawing too deeply on the Source).

 

In that regard, it's interesting to note that on the two times Rand came close to directly confronting the DO, he was drawing as deeply as he could on the Source while in or near the Blight. Coincidental? There must be a reason why the DO forbids it, after all.

 

Worth noting is that in both cases, he is also described as channeling Light

 

Interesting, good catch Mansch!

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The constraints that held them did not hold him.

Moghedien told us that channeling in Thakan'dar is forbidden by the DO. Perhaps some of that restriction extends to the Town (say, drawing too deeply on the Source).

 

In that regard, it's interesting to note that on the two times Rand came close to directly confronting the DO, he was drawing as deeply as he could on the Source while in or near the Blight. Coincidental? There must be a reason why the DO forbids it, after all.

 

There is this too: Isam nearly left right then, stepping into the dream. He couldn’t kill both of these men. He’d have been reduced to ash before he managed to take down one of them. He’d seen Samma N’Sei kill; they often did it just to explore new ways of using their powers.

 

Its mere assumption but Isam has seen them kill already; I wouldn't think that he would witness that anywhere but the Town, given he is pretty ready to jump away as it is. I'm guessing they aren't close enough to Thakan'dar? An assumption, like I said, but feeling safe enough about it.

Edited by TootThatHorn

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There is no twisting of words, and the only person misled is you, because you're unnecessarily confusing the terms. There is no implied directionality to a verb like "confront". X confronts Y and Y confronts X are the same. Its no different from saying X faced Y or Y faced X. Both mean the same. Which is why when I'm paraphrasing the quote, I don't bother distinguishing between Rand confronting Egwene and Egwene confronting Rand.

 

You are on drugs! Perhaps you can be let off as obviously English is not your first language.

 

Should I confront someone then they do not confront me. I confront and they respond, having been confronted. Within the context of that situation they cannot confront me as I have instigated the interaction by being the confrontee. The word confrontation can be used to describe such an interaction, but cannot be used as you have. In you example X confronts Y. Y responds to X, it is impossible for your explanation (#circlejerk) to be possible, contextually and in reality.

 

SHEESH

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There is no twisting of words, and the only person misled is you, because you're unnecessarily confusing the terms. There is no implied directionality to a verb like "confront". X confronts Y and Y confronts X are the same. Its no different from saying X faced Y or Y faced X. Both mean the same. Which is why when I'm paraphrasing the quote, I don't bother distinguishing between Rand confronting Egwene and Egwene confronting Rand.

 

 

You are saying that X + Y have a confrontation. This is not what the quote says.

 

It says:

 

X is confronting Y + Z.

 

 

Let's have a look at it.

 

 

Here is the direct quote:

Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan.

 

 

 

"Confront" : con·front (kschwa.gifn-frubreve.gifntprime.gif)

v. con·front·ed, con·front·ing, con·fronts

v.tr.

1. To come face to face with, especially with defiance or hostility: I wish to confront my accuser in a court of law.

2. To bring face to face with: The defendant was confronted with incontrovertible evidence of guilt.

3. To come up against; encounter: confronted danger at every turn.

 

 

Definition of CONFRONT

 

1

: to face especially in challenge : oppose <confront an enemy>

 

2

a : to cause to meet : bring face-to-face <confront a reader with statistics>

b : to meet face-to-face : encounter <confronted the possibility of failure>

 

Examples of CONFRONT

  1. They confronted the invaders at the shore.
     
  2. She confronted him about his smoking.
     
  3. The country is reluctant to confront its violent past.
     
  4. The photographs confront the viewer with images of desperate poverty.
     
  5. I confronted her with the evidence.

So you are seriously suggesting that all of these are non-directional? All of these are actions by one party on another.

 

"They confront -> invaders" Invaders are not confronting them. They are being confronted.

 

"She confronted -> him" He is not confronting her, "she" is initiating the confrontation. He is the one being confronted.

 

"Rand confronting -> Women" Rand is in the act of confronting -> women.

 

You could say that perhaps in this case it is a mutual confrontation.

 

You cannot however, say: There is absolutely no way this is directional. Grammatically, the implication is that Rand initiates the act of confrontation against women. To suggest it can go both ways is an assumption, which changes the direct meaning and is "unnecessarily confusing the terms"

 

 

That there is a confrontation is not changed, if that is what you mean. But who initiates it is entirely relevant.

 

For example it is highly likely Egwene would confront Rand about the Seals, since she wishes to initiate such a confrontation.

 

However, it is far less likely that Rand would initiate a confrontation on the same subject.

 

Are you also seriously saying any refusal to help would be taken seriously?

 

DO you sreiously believe that if anyone objects, and he simply does it anyway, that any sane person would say "Oh, you've done it now, Rand. I am going to leave the world to be destroyed by the Shadow now!"

 

That is absolutely ludicrous.

 

 

This is pages ago, I haven't caught up yet. I just wanted to say this is the most asperger's post I've ever read on here, and that's saying something.

 

Look yourself in the mirror and just repeat this, "Who, fucking, cares?" Hopefully the answer "No one" will dawn on you and you'll realize effortposts like this look really bad and also accomplish nothing. Put this effort into the real world man, damn.

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Does a "dreamshard" have anything to do with the Dark Crystal? THE SHARD!!! We must find the Shard!

 

Seriously kept thinking that when this Branderson term popped up in the prologue.

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Does a "dreamshard" have anything to do with the Dark Crystal? THE SHARD!!! We must find the Shard!

 

Seriously kept thinking that when this Branderson term popped up in the prologue.

 

Funny, that movie popped in to my head when Mat lost his eye.

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A dream pocket makes sense, like a vacuole, The Ways, Skimming area, etc etc etc. We all know there's these pockets in the Pattern, it'd be easy to explain it well. I just think his naming is awful. I'm so glad RJ named the blight Aiel, it rolls off the tongue.

 

Edit: To clarify, I feel it's just the opposite of a nightmare you can't control, it's a dream you can control. They're all connected to TAR in some way, else random people wouldn't pop into TAR. It's just Dreamshard is a stupid ass name.

Edited by JustCharlie

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The one big thing that annoys me in the prologue is like luckers said the introduction of sleete like its some big character that is exciting and we've missed. He was minorily talked about by gawyn and only got his tiny bit of exciting cause he had bested lan a couple of times. Its really annoying how brandon trys to make his characters so important when the fans would much rather passed warders/warriors from the earlier books (like hurrin) to make a big impact. Same thing happened with naffe(sp) in tom narishma or flynn could have taken the roles he played in tom but brandon felt he needed his character to make an impact.

 

The real question on cyndane is not how she is being punished but why? whats the reason for robert jordans plan of having her being the most punished one she obviously hasnt done worse then grendal or moghedian so the whole point of her being set up as the most punished is for some sort of switch to the light side its the only thing that makes sense? why make the extra effort the dream in tom epilogue, if she is just going to continue being just another one of the forsaken.

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Cyndane being the most punished probably rests on two things.

 

1. Her attitude following her first death. I don't find it particularly hard to believe that she's generally been more defiant than Moggy, considering the characterization of each.

 

2. Rather than simply screwing up horribly like the others, she actively worked to help Rand learn to channel and tried to create an alliance with him to overthrow both the Dark One and the Creator. Even if it had never worked, this is likely a much more significant offense in the Dark One's eyes (or whatever equivalent it may have). Even Asmo and Moggy were forced into their situation--the former by Cyndane herself.

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I think Talmanes just made himself one of my favorite characters. Loved his part, and am so hoping Nyn shows up to heal him.

 

I loved seeing slayer seem semi-human, being scared of things and feeling compassion for the urchin, after hearing over and over from Perrin how he smelled stale and inhuman. Nice to finally figure more out about the red veiled aiel.

 

Seeing Taim named Chosen was nuts. We have known he was bad for a while, and we were pretty sure it was 13x13...but still, having the 13x13 brought up and having Taim named a forsaken really made it sink in. That and Androl and Pevara. The combination of those two POVs made Taim seem like a much scarier villain.

 

I was a little frustrated that the forsaken reveal was naming Taim instead of showing us what Demandred is up to...

 

Really liked Avi with the WOs, and loved the suggestion that she change one of their names...great start to changing the future...I kept thinking, well her kids said she told them there must be peace, so Idk if she can change anything...but hey, thats a start.

 

I really love the writing Brandon has done for these, and I can't wait to read this last one. I loved his writing of Talmanes's character...made him absolutely one of the best heros of the series. I loved getting inside his head and finally seeing him smile and laugh. I am so glad Brandon is doing this...His two books have been among my favorite in the series. His writing is different, but it feels like it picks up the pace, and thats what we need...this is the last battle! Things needed to get moving! I'm glad he was able to not only bring about a change of pace, but also to give us the finale!

Edited by nathabj

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The one big thing that annoys me in the prologue is like luckers said the introduction of sleete like its some big character that is exciting and we've missed. He was minorily talked about by gawyn and only got his tiny bit of exciting cause he had bested lan a couple of times. Its really annoying how brandon trys to make his characters so important when the fans would much rather passed warders/warriors from the earlier books (like hurrin) to make a big impact. Same thing happened with naffe(sp) in tom narishma or flynn could have taken the roles he played in tom but brandon felt he needed his character to make an impact.

 

The real question on cyndane is not how she is being punished but why? whats the reason for robert jordans plan of having her being the most punished one she obviously hasnt done worse then grendal or moghedian so the whole point of her being set up as the most punished is for some sort of switch to the light side its the only thing that makes sense? why make the extra effort the dream in tom epilogue, if she is just going to continue being just another one of the forsaken.

 

I think he did it on purpose to make a point.

If he uses unknown characters to fill in minor points people complain that new characters keep popping up when old characters are available.

If he uses an old character for minor parts, people complain that he didnt nail it.

 

 

I enjoyed all of it.

 

Like someone pointed out, I feel the "He is chosen" was directed at the Forsaken to drill it home. Even know I still have a hard time putting him on the same level as the other Forsaken, imagine how they must feel.

 

When Isam is in the real world, does that mean Luc has to go into TAR?

 

It would be absolutely WONDERFUL if the Band's escape coincides with the arrival of ANYONE who could possibly heal Talmanes. I dont think it will happen, but I sure would LOVE for it to happen.

 

Taim has to belong to Logain, I will be disappointed any other way. Logain needs to hit the tower and seriously damage the "dreadlords" before the final confrontation.

Even if Taim escapes ( I am certain many of the dreadlords will escape) a good thumping is in order.

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I loved Sorilea's reaction to the news...

I was not particularly fond of Sorilea's reaction because it was a non-subtle (and ultimately pointless) theory reference.

In what way?

 

Like this:

 

"But why," Bair said softly, "would the columns show a despair that cannot change? No. I refuse to believe it. Rhuidean has always shown us what we needed to see. To help us, not destroy us. This vision must have a purpose as well. To encourage us toward greater honor?"

 

"It's unimportant," Sorilea said curtly.

 

"But—" Aviendha began.

 

"It's unimportant," Sorilea repeated. "If this vision were unchangeable, if our destiny is to...fall...as you have spoken, would any of us stop fighting to change it?"

 

The room grew still. Aviendha shook her head.

 

"We must treat it as if it can be changed," Sorilea said. "Best not to dwell on your question, Aviendha. We must decide what course to take."

 

Somewhat literarily cheap, like Kashgar, but boiled down. Her first statement is misleading, in words and tone.

 

...even the parts that were supposed to be Pevara being cool were distasteful. If a woman were in a room acting like that I'd probably turn some snark on her. In many ways they reminded me of Brandon's depiction of Cadsuane, or Silviana, or many of the Wise Ones--is this truly what he thinks powerful, intelligent, experienced women act like?

 

Silviana is the comparison that came to mind for me, but Cadsuane fits the mold too. I tend to think of Cadsuane separately because of Brandon's feelings about her.

 

That reminds me. Terez, what do you think of Sorilea? To me, she didn't sound all that Dark (but of course, she never did sound that way, it's mostly inconsistencies that point to that possibility.

 

She's still the same old Sorilea. She's never missed a step in her leadership role; I don't see why she should start now. But I did find this comment interesting:

 

"Almost," Amys said, "I wish for the vision to be unchangeable, for at least it proves we win this fight."

 

"It proves nothing," Sorilea said. "Sightblinder's victory would break the Pattern, and so no vision of the future can be sure or trusted. Even with prophecies of what might happen in Ages to come, if Sightblinder wins this battle, all will become nothing."

 

I still find it hard to believe that Sorilea is not a Darkfriend, but if she is one, then she's a nihilist like Moridin. But again, just like Corele was a stupidity prop for this point, Amys becomes one too. It's absolutely unbelievable that anyone could understand the nature of prophecy better than a Dreamwalker, even Sorilea. It bothers me even more for being essentially a duplicate of Corele/Min/Cadsuane.

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Afraid Talmanes is toast. He is a disposable character and the last book was supposed to be a blood bath that opens with a bang. Talmanes looks to be the first casualty - a heroes death at least.

 

And to Terez - I would rather have cheap disposable characters made of cardboard than totally mucked up ones like Avi and Mat. ;/

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Can we agree the Sanderson hate is pointless now? You don't have to read any more his stuff and you now have no impact on the final product (if you ever did). [comment removed]

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Can we agree the Sanderson hate is pointless now? You don't have to read any more his stuff and you now have no impact on the final product (if you ever did). [comment removed]

 

It's not hate, this is a discussion forum. Besides it's just as annoying to see people get upset about seeing the criticism; all complaining about people dissecting his work does is add unnecessary content to the conversation.

Edited by Luckers

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The way I read it is that Graendal was killed, given the new body of an old woman and is now known as Cyndayne. Did I read that wrong? Further, I believe it was she who met with Isam as the Chosen was a woman who stared at her reflection in the glass.....as someone would who is not used to seeing her face. She is curious, but we already learned that much of her vanity was an act.

 

Isam/Luc/Slayer are the same being...but with different personalities.

 

Aviendha may be able to change the outcome of her vision. We'll see. Yet, the reader may NEVER know.

 

Taim is not Demandred, but is a new Chosen, as suspected.

 

Moggy is back, but on a leash. Cyndane/Graendal stands higher than she.

 

Caemlyn is sacked, the dragons are saved. Tormanes is surviving the poison of Thakan 'dor blades. Is the dark one losing power? Or maybe Padan Fain has something to do with that?

 

 

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The way I read it is that Graendal was killed, given the new body of an old woman and is now known as Cyndayne. Did I read that wrong?

 

Yes. Lanfear = Cyndane, and she was introduced in TPOD. Graendal = Hessalam, who was introduced in this scene.

 

Moggy is back, but on a leash.

 

She was on a leash before. She's slightly less leashed now.

 

Cyndane/Graendal stands higher than she.

 

She stands higher than both, but only just barely, and not in a sense that gives her any authority.

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Oops. Thanks for the correction.

 

I think hessalem/graendal was the one meeting isam in the town.

 

Moggy can channel while she holds the cor'souvre, but if it taken by someone she may not be able to channel around it. This would be a good moggy/nynaeve scene.

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