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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

CAUTION: Super Spoiler Prologue discussion; Leave the cops out of it :)


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Barid, you've chosen your handle yourself. Don't ruin everyone else's fun by taking away our best villain, okay? We've been waiting for some real evil for a long time now :wink:

 

Heh, fair enough, I wont be unhappy to see some major Shadow-victory from him.

 

Although personally I have sufficient evil with Moridin, from what we see of him in the Prologue, he is more evil than I anticipated. I knew he was a nasty one, but jeez, he REALLY is a nasty one.

 

Brandon's comment about Moridin being nastier than Fain sure makes a lot more sense now. I saw him as the fatalist resigned to oblivion, but he likes his cruelty.

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There were a fair number of Kinswomen we knew already, so why not use one them in the text instead of creating a new one? Why introduce new characters nobody can identify with when there's no need for it? You'd think it would be easier to use someone with an established personality (no matter how minute) that you could elude to, rather than creating a new one.

 

Actually, I imagine not only for Sanderson, but for many authors, it would not actually "be easier to use someone with an established personality." Much of the criticism he gets is for not getting many of the characters we already know right. I don't know Brandon, so this is pure speculation, but he may have simply made the calculation that risking that criticism with minor characters as well as the major ones he had to keep was just not worth it.

 

 

Not to stomp over anyone's parade, but do you guys mind foregoing the regular argument about criticism and its validity, for the time being at least? We actually have some new tidbits to debate; why not make good use of that?

 

Indeed, perhaps another topic can be made about it. I mean, I don't usually mind, criticism is valid, but since we only have one thread to discuss this in, it makes it difficult.

 

Anyway, what do people think about Moggyrachnid's thought about "What happened to Demandred, he had changed" and his insistence on killing Rand. It seemed to be a big point in the PoV, what with Taim contending with him, and his persistent insistence (heh) that he has to kill Rand.

 

To fit it with my own theory of Demandred not keen on the Shadow, I think he wants to get rid of Rand ASAP and fulfil his mission of "vengance". With anything else, he is usually pretty calm, but LTT angers him. I think he either wants to kill LTT and die, or even take his "rightful" place (i mean, it doesn't make sense, but strong hatred like this often doesn't).

 

I am also reminded of the fact that it seems simply killing the Dragon doesn't set the DO free, that there are special requirements for the DO's victory. Also the fact that it looks like Rand has to die to win. "To live you must die" "Blood on the rocks" etc..

 

So I can see this two ways, the DO has tasked him with killing Rand properly, to ensure the DO's victory. It would explain why Moridin is willing to suffer these "requirements", and would be more interesting than simply lying to him.

 

The second is far fetched, true, but it makes sense in a way. I have already extrapolated on the potential foreshadowing for Demandred betraying the Shadow, and not being keen on the Shadow's victory. If he somehow knows that Rand has to die before he is able to defeat the DO (apparently Demandred figured out Rand's plan the moment he realized he was in Shadar Logoth, and he observes pretty much everything that other characters miss) Demandred thinks "This is a sweet way to get what I want. Kill Lews Therin, without dooming the world to be consumed by Shadow. Win-Win right there."

 

Obviously, it might just be an idle comment, but you never know what is foreshadowing and what isn't. It seems redundant to put that in without specific reason, it is pretty clear. (although, referring to the criticism, it may just be another case of stating the obvious)

 

I'm not sure I agree the specifics of this, but then again, I'm not sure I disagree with them. However, I do think that if Demandred has figured out what victory for the Shadow really means (and seriously, shouldn't he have by now?) then he is far and away the most likely to betray the Shadow, not because he's such a nice guy, but because it is in his own interest.

 

The most interesting point you make that Demandred may have concluded that he needs Rand al'Thor to make sure the Shadow doesn't win. In that case, it would be exactly as you say - he would think: "This is a sweet way to get what I want. Kill Lews Therin, without dooming the world to be consumed by Shadow. Win-Win right there."

 

So, he helps Rand to die in the right place at the right time, and uses the resources he's accumulated to position himself for a power grab in a post Tarmon Gai'don world. Plausible, at least.

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Not to stomp over anyone's parade, but do you guys mind foregoing the regular argument about criticism and its validity, for the time being at least? We actually have some new tidbits to debate; why not make good use of that?

 

Indeed, perhaps another topic can be made about it. I mean, I don't usually mind, criticism is valid, but since we only have one thread to discuss this in, it makes it difficult.

 

Anyway, what do people think about Moggyrachnid's thought about "What happened to Demandred, he had changed" and his insistence on killing Rand. It seemed to be a big point in the PoV, what with Taim contending with him, and his persistent insistence (heh) that he has to kill Rand.

 

To fit it with my own theory of Demandred not keen on the Shadow, I think he wants to get rid of Rand ASAP and fulfil his mission of "vengance". With anything else, he is usually pretty calm, but LTT angers him. I think he either wants to kill LTT and die, or even take his "rightful" place (i mean, it doesn't make sense, but strong hatred like this often doesn't).

 

I am also reminded of the fact that it seems simply killing the Dragon doesn't set the DO free, that there are special requirements for the DO's victory. Also the fact that it looks like Rand has to die to win. "To live you must die" "Blood on the rocks" etc..

 

So I can see this two ways, the DO has tasked him with killing Rand properly, to ensure the DO's victory. It would explain why Moridin is willing to suffer these "requirements", and would be more interesting than simply lying to him.

 

The second is far fetched, true, but it makes sense in a way. I have already extrapolated on the potential foreshadowing for Demandred betraying the Shadow, and not being keen on the Shadow's victory. If he somehow knows that Rand has to die before he is able to defeat the DO (apparently Demandred figured out Rand's plan the moment he realized he was in Shadar Logoth, and he observes pretty much everything that other characters miss) Demandred thinks "This is a sweet way to get what I want. Kill Lews Therin, without dooming the world to be consumed by Shadow. Win-Win right there."

 

Obviously, it might just be an idle comment, but you never know what is foreshadowing and what isn't. It seems redundant to put that in without specific reason, it is pretty clear. (although, referring to the criticism, it may just be another case of stating the obvious)

 

I was actually operating under the premise that in the grand scheme of things the Shadow has already lost. The wheel of time wont be broken and the DO isn't going to be released. The only thing they are fighting for now is whether or not this thing turns out a stalemate or not - meaning will civilization be annihilated and the next age be a terrible future or a bright future.

 

I had personally assumed that Rand's moment on the mountain was when the Shadow lost the ability to win. Moridin's comments in the prologue seem to indicate that this is not true though.

Edited by Mark D
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I'm not sure I agree the specifics of this, but then again, I'm not sure I disagree with them. However, I do think that if Demandred has figured out what victory for the Shadow really means (and seriously, shouldn't he have by now?) then he is far and away the most likely to betray the Shadow, not because he's such a nice guy, but because it is in his own interest.

 

The most interesting point you make that Demandred may have concluded that he needs Rand al'Thor to make sure the Shadow doesn't win. In that case, it would be exactly as you say - he would think: "This is a sweet way to get what I want. Kill Lews Therin, without dooming the world to be consumed by Shadow. Win-Win right there."

 

So, he helps Rand to die in the right place at the right time, and uses the resources he's accumulated to position himself for a power grab in a post Tarmon Gai'don world. Plausible, at least.

 

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I am in no way suggesting he will be "good". Simple fact is, being one of the CHosen, he won't be good. He has done too many evil things.

 

I just think he has figured out the DO's pulling the wool over their eyes. Why else would he need "requirements", if he wanted the Shadow to win? It suggests he wont help out unless he can kill Rand.

 

As I mentioned, throughout the series he is noted to be quick on the uptake. He is supsicious of the DO when he asks if he would use Balfire. He nearly instantly figured Rand's plan out, he was quick to spot Graendal's angreal and other little things.

 

The conjecture about the reasons for killing Rand (like making sure they win) is fairly insubstantial, just throwing things out there.

 

What I do think is very, very likely is Demandred fighting/killing some of the Chosen. He definitely wants Taim dead, and I think Moridin as well. Not to mention anyone else that is keen on killing Rand.

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I'm not sure I agree the specifics of this, but then again, I'm not sure I disagree with them. However, I do think that if Demandred has figured out what victory for the Shadow really means (and seriously, shouldn't he have by now?) then he is far and away the most likely to betray the Shadow, not because he's such a nice guy, but because it is in his own interest.

 

The most interesting point you make that Demandred may have concluded that he needs Rand al'Thor to make sure the Shadow doesn't win. In that case, it would be exactly as you say - he would think: "This is a sweet way to get what I want. Kill Lews Therin, without dooming the world to be consumed by Shadow. Win-Win right there."

 

So, he helps Rand to die in the right place at the right time, and uses the resources he's accumulated to position himself for a power grab in a post Tarmon Gai'don world. Plausible, at least.

 

I like this theory the most and it is what I am leaning towards as well. It seems a bit of a stretch honestly because it doesnt have the "feel" of WoT in it so I wouldnt bet my life on this...but it makes a lot of sense when we consider Demandreds visit to SG. DO asks him if he will unleash balefire and his first reaction in his mind is to question the wisdom of that and to wonder if there will be anything left of the world to rule. He remains off screen doing his own thing the entire time and clearly separates himself from the rest of the Forsaken intentionally. It is very likely that Demandred has a plan of his own above and beyond the shadow going on.

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I would love to see some sort of titanic battle between two of the forsaken. I don't mean knife in the dark, I mean full on power vs power battle between two of them. If such happens, I'd be shocked if Demandred wasn't one of the combatants.

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I, too, have been under the premise that the Shadow has effectively lost already and is now fighting for stalemate.

 

The main thing I have to keep reminding myself of is this: Fain is a wildcard. He is power unto himself, opposing both Light and Dark and he could effectively ruin everything for either or for both. I imagine him to be like throwing a gray queen into a chessboard that is nearing the end of a match with a player who wants to win while doing as much harm to the other two as possible.

 

I've been holding the thought that one of those deep in the Shadow would come back and that one thought to be strong for the Light would change sides, and I don't count Taim as that one. I think he's been of the Shadow since before he became a False Dragon. Maybe Bashere, maybe Dobraine, maybe someone else like one of the Band's subcommanders - think of how much confusion that would cause if the Band was messed with in some fashion beyond what they lose at Caemlyn. That the person who came back could be Demandred is an interesting thought to me, though I'm disinclined to agree. I think his hatred is too strong. Given the Prologue, I think we can discount Moridin as well. It will be interesting to watch play out.

 

Also, Luckers, thank you, very much.

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I don't think the shadow has lost. I think that turning Rand or breaking him was by far the 'easy' way. Now they have to go the hard way which is not nearly certain for them, which they have definitely accounted for. If that was the only way for them to win, then almost the entire series worth of planning for the shadow has been for the consolation prize of "well, we've lost but we'll make everyone pay for it".

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I, too, have been under the premise that the Shadow has effectively lost already and is now fighting for stalemate.

 

The main thing I have to keep reminding myself of is this: Fain is a wildcard. He is power unto himself, opposing both Light and Dark and he could effectively ruin everything for either or for both. I imagine him to be like throwing a gray queen into a chessboard that is nearing the end of a match with a player who wants to win while doing as much harm to the other two as possible.

 

I've been holding the thought that one of those deep in the Shadow would come back and that one thought to be strong for the Light would change sides, and I don't count Taim as that one. I think he's been of the Shadow since before he became a False Dragon. Maybe Bashere, maybe Dobraine, maybe someone else like one of the Band's subcommanders - think of how much confusion that would cause if the Band was messed with in some fashion beyond what they lose at Caemlyn. That the person who came back could be Demandred is an interesting thought to me, though I'm disinclined to agree. I think his hatred is too strong. Given the Prologue, I think we can discount Moridin as well. It will be interesting to watch play out.

 

Also, Luckers, thank you, very much.

 

Two things:

 

1) Moridins comments in the prologue seem to indicate that the shadow has not effectively lost yet. He says that the end is coming and implies that he is talking about the end of everything. So this throws our thoughts about Rand having already won in one sense for a loop.

 

2) I dont think Moridin can be discounted at all yet. Everyone else comes away with a very dark and new feeling for Moridin in this chapter. I disagree - there was a few key sentences from Moghedien that point out how he has changed lately. He is no longer interested in punishing them and seems to only continue by routine whereas before he thoroughly enjoyed it. He also spends a lot of time brooding and staring into the fire thinking. He's been planning this ending now for 1000's of years...is it really something he needs to think on so often? To me, this is alluding to conflict that is rising up in him. Considering the link with Rand, it is actually a bit ridiculous to assume that Rand's change would not have SOME impact on Moridin. The question is whether or not it will be enough to influence him against the shadow or if it will just make him more dangerous/change him as Moghedien speculated.

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The glimpses of Isam and the town were very well done. It was awesome to actually get inside his head and feel some of the pain from his youth. Very touching moment when he noticed the child in the alley. Also really like the Talmanes arc over all except for the "dreadbane" part. Ughh. The Androl and Pevara section was a bit rough. Somewhat bummed because I am really looking forward to events at the BT.

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1) He almost has to believe that after all of the time he's put into it, whether it is true or not. He's no more likely to give up a tightly held belief than anyone else. So his thoughts on the subject aren't proof of anything. Nor it is it lack of proof, it's just his opinion. RJ has made it clear that people in this series are misinformed or misunderstand with regularity and it may very well apply again. As I stated in my reply, I have to remind myself about Fain, that he throws a wrench in everything. I no longer believe it's truly settled (regardless of whether my initial opinion was right), because of Fain. I guess I was unclear in that. I tend to ramble at times when I post.

 

2) Maybe you're right. Maybe he is having second thoughts. Or maybe the hopelessness and/or doubt that appear to have led him to the Shadow is reasserting itself in a form of depression and his heart just isn't in those things that he enjoyed atm, particularly after having lost at the gambit of winning everything without having to go through the Battle - he came oh so very close. Having been depressed on more than one occasion, I can fully identify with that, and in any case I don't believe he's the sort to take defeat well under the best of circumstances. So my take is depression reasserting itself, not doubts about his cause. I guess we'll find out in a bit over three months. :) I can say that I wouldn't mind at all if you're right. I just don't think that's the likely outcome at this moment.

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Well, I'm still a book away from BS's work. However, I don't see the big deal about this one line. And, considering the books seem to have a lot of people with a lot of question, maybe it's not a big deal to just say instead of imply; he's Chosen.

 

Well yeah, if it was just that one line it wouldn't really be a big deal. But as you will soon find out it happens constantly.

 

As for the second part you don't think "That name has been discarded," Moridin said. "Just as each of us, upon being Chosen, discarded what we were and the names men called us. From this moment on, this man shall be known only as M'Hael" is saying he is chosen?

 

Come on. You're telling me I'm the only one who does stuff like that in real life or in meetings to get their point across? I do it quite often. All the time. Daily...

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1) He almost has to believe that after all of the time he's put into it, whether it is true or not. He's no more likely to give up a tightly held belief than anyone else. So his thoughts on the subject aren't proof of anything. Nor it is it lack of proof, it's just his opinion. RJ has made it clear that people in this series are misinformed or misunderstand with regularity and it may very well apply again. As I stated in my reply, I have to remind myself about Fain, that he throws a wrench in everything. I no longer believe it's truly settled (regardless of whether my initial opinion was right), because of Fain. I guess I was unclear in that. I tend to ramble at times when I post.

 

2) Maybe you're right. Maybe he is having second thoughts. Or maybe the hopelessness and/or doubt that appear to have led him to the Shadow is reasserting itself in a form of depression and his heart just isn't in those things that he enjoyed atm, particularly after having lost at the gambit of winning everything without having to go through the Battle - he came oh so very close. Having been depressed on more than one occasion, I can fully identify with that, and in any case I don't believe he's the sort to take defeat well under the best of circumstances. So my take is depression reasserting itself, not doubts about his cause. I guess we'll find out in a bit over three months. :) I can say that I wouldn't mind at all if you're right. I just don't think that's the likely outcome at this moment.

 

I like the depression idea, but I just dont see the author treading that far into the character to develop something like that. I am OK with either way it goes really though. The one thing we know for sure is that Rand and Moridin end up as one person and one of them dies and one lives. Unless that particular bit of prophecy is a piece of clever misdirection (which wouldnt be surprising), it is suggesting that Moridin will remain a bad guy. Otherwise, we are in for some crazy twists.

Edited by Mark D
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Well, I'm still a book away from BS's work. However, I don't see the big deal about this one line. And, considering the books seem to have a lot of people with a lot of question, maybe it's not a big deal to just say instead of imply; he's Chosen.

 

Well yeah, if it was just that one line it wouldn't really be a big deal. But as you will soon find out it happens constantly.

 

As for the second part you don't think "That name has been discarded," Moridin said. "Just as each of us, upon being Chosen, discarded what we were and the names men called us. From this moment on, this man shall be known only as M'Hael" is saying he is chosen?

 

Come on. You're telling me I'm the only one who does stuff like that in real life or in meetings to get their point across? I do it quite often. All the time. Daily...

 

Let's take this over to the Brandon thread so as not to sidetrack prologue discussion.

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I haven't read the whole prologue yet, so some of this is probably conjecture, but what i did read was awesome. as far as, everyone nit picking , completely your opinion. there are some things that grate on me, but i am more impressed with brandon doing this. without him we don't get the oppurtunity to finish the story. that is what matters.

 

what i was able to see before the google doc closed down i really enjoyed it all. wish there would have been some actual BT action, but it will happen sometime in this book. so i can wait. Talmanes is the man. loved it. I never have been super happy with avi scenes but even it wasnt that bad. still don't think any of the major aiel characters are DF. but again we will see.

 

Man I can't wait for January.

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That reminds me. Terez, what do you think of Sorilea? To me, she didn't sound all that Dark (but of course, she never did sound that way, it's mostly inconsistencies that point to that possibility.

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I really doubt Sorilea is a DF. I think if she was, the Aiel would be in far more disarray then they are, just due to her authority and competency.

 

If she's a DF, she's playing a far deeper game then I think would be plausible to be held this far into the series.

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Oh... and back to Demandred...

I think everyone that has mentioned it is right that his secret is not (or at least not solely) Murandy.

 

You will know the fruits I have harvested, Moridin," Demandred said, voice low. "You will know them in bushels and droves. Just remember my requirement:

 

I can't think of anything short of Shara being brought in for the Shadow that would be large enough for those claims based on the players on the field (and the Black Tower being credited to M'Hael and the Eyeblinder Aiel being seemingly Moridin's).

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I really doubt Sorilea is a DF. I think if she was, the Aiel would be in far more disarray then they are, just due to her authority and competency.

 

If she's a DF, she's playing a far deeper game then I think would be plausible to be held this far into the series.

So Sorilea is Demandred then? XD

 

On a more serious note: something is up with Sorilea I feel. We haven't really had a (major?) Darkfriend in the Aiel. We had the Forsaken helping the Shaido, but we haven't actually seen a DF Aiel (red-veils aside).

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I think there might be something about Rhuidean which would reject potential clan chiefs/wise ones from succeeding there. I don't have a lot of evidence for it, but it would not surprise me if such protections could be put into place there.

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There seems to be some confusion regarding Graendal's current status in regards to whether she or not she is mindtrapped and if so who holds it. I was hoping that somebody with possesion of the complete prologue could definitively answer this. Thanks in advance.

 

Aqua

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I think there might be something about Rhuidean which would reject potential clan chiefs/wise ones from succeeding there. I don't have a lot of evidence for it, but it would not surprise me if such protections could be put into place there.

Hmm I don't know, the two ter'angreal Wise-ones use seem to be altruistic to me, as does every ter'angreal so far.

The glass columns ter'angreal seems to rely on people to do themselves damage judging by what Rand saw of the Shaido potential clan-chief.

And the rings ter'angreal admittedly has less evidence either way, but the fact no other ter'angreal we have seen has built-in dark-detectors to me says that it doesn't have any special measures either.]

 

And naturally if she became a DF after becoming a wise-one then the argument is mute about these ter'angreal.

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There seems to be some confusion regarding Graendal's current status in regards to whether she or not she is mindtrapped and if so who holds it. I was hoping that somebody with possesion of the complete prologue could definitively answer this. Thanks in advance.

 

Aqua

 

There is no mention of Graendal being mindtrapped in the prologue. The Moggyrachnid has been given her own mindtrap by Moridin (which apparently now allows her to channel in proximity to it without discomfort or danger). But Moridin is only mentioned as wearing one other mindtrap - apparently Cyndane's. Graendal's punishment, it seems, was to be killed (likely after being ... abused ... by Shaidar Haran) and transmigrated into a body utterly at odds with her sensual desires, and to be renamed Hessalam (which means "without forgiveness"). Hence, her new unofficial official (in my head) title, the Graeffalump.

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So... some theories that have been killed:

 

Taim is Moridin (though I suppose there's still a small chance of that).

 

Demandred is in Murandy (unlikely, since he claims what he brings to the table is more important than Taim's DF Asha'man. A ludicrous claim given the location of the BT and with Caemlyn taken.)

 

Any number of perfectly ridiculous ideas about the red-veils and the blank in the Blight.

 

It's actually strange that nobody caught it, especially since it's a male Mesaana case all over again, with Taim being the male Amyrlin seat for the shadow...

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