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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

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When did you first know Dashiva was Osan'gar/Aginor? On my initial read through, I didn't really pay much attention to him, especially as the books he's featured in are mostly ACoS, TPoD, and WH, which kind of lost my interest a bit. But in WH we find out Dashiva is really Osan'gar, who was first seen in LoC before Dashiva came to Taim, or Taim to him?, to the Black Tower. And we learn in WH that Osan'gar was really Aginor reincarnated.

 

But now on my second read through, I can see a lot of subtle hints that Dashiva was a Forsaken. In ACoS, we learn that he was pushing Flinn to learn things that most of the Asha'man didn't know how to do, and that's how Flinn (I think it was Flinn) was able to Heal Rand after the Shadar Logoth knife stab wound. Later we hear from Rand's PoV that Dashiva was holding almost as much of the One Power as Rand himself possibly could when Rand awakens from his wounds. And when, in the same chapter, Rand discusses going to attack Sammael that very day, Dashiva seems concerned and the only one unhappy with the plan.

 

So how did you first know Dashiva was a Forsaken, and that he was Osan'gar?

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Anyone who holds nearly as much Saidin as Rand rings a warning bell for me. Two: Taim and Dashiva. Because Rand is the most powerful male channeler of all time; and anyone slightly weaker would probably be a Foresaken, whom we know were only slightly weaker than Rand.

 

But I didn't think that Dashiva was Osan'gar till it was stated in the books.

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Anyone who holds nearly as much Saidin as Rand rings a warning bell for me. Two: Taim and Dashiva. Because Rand is the most powerful male channeler of all time; and anyone slightly weaker would probably be a Foresaken, whom we know were only slightly weaker than Rand.

 

But I didn't think that Dashiva was Osan'gar till it was stated in the books.

 

In hindsight is seems obvious, but I always rationalised that if it was possible to have people in the AoL as strong as LTT, then it should be possible now. Nyn's as strong as Moggy after all. I think I twigged him as a DF when I twigged he was close to Taim, but some stuff I can't remember from my first read through, so not entirely sure.

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What gave it away for me was the scene in Path of Daggers where he undergoes a complete personality change and starts to lecture Rand on the "strangeness" of Saidin (during Rand's campaign against the Seanchan in Altara). He's suddenly a different person altogether, angry and pedantic instead of his typical aloof and apathetic self, which made me think the whole "guy with his head in the clouds" thing was a front. The fact that we knew Aginor was in his new body trying to position himself made him the prime suspect.

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What gave it away for me was the scene in Path of Daggers where he undergoes a complete personality change and starts to lecture Rand on the "strangeness" of Saidin (during Rand's campaign against the Seanchan in Altara). He's suddenly a different person altogether, angry and pedantic instead of his typical aloof and apathetic self, which made me think the whole "guy with his head in the clouds" thing was a front. The fact that we knew Aginor was in his new body trying to position himself made him the prime suspect.

Especially because after that Rand mentions the Forsaken and Dashiva flinches. The Ashaman dont flinch from anything. They watch others die or go mad all the time.

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As when he tells them in PoD I think that "noone stands toe to toe with the Dragon Reborn, even the forsaken could tell you that. Right Dashiva." And he flinches, cuz its true he had been killed by Rand once already.

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As when he tells them in PoD I think that "noone stands toe to toe with the Dragon Reborn, even the forsaken could tell you that. Right Dashiva." And he flinches, cuz its true he had been killed by Rand once already.

Thanks for the quote I was missing. I also never considered the fact that Rand had killed him once. hm...

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As when he tells them in PoD I think that "noone stands toe to toe with the Dragon Reborn, even the forsaken could tell you that. Right Dashiva." And he flinches, cuz its true he had been killed by Rand once already.

 

Technically Rand didn't really kill him, Aginor overdosed on the power...

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iirc didn't rand say he burned him up with the power when mor asked what had happened?

 

From Encyclopedia WoT

Aginor follows Rand and begins using the Eye of the World. He brags that he faced Lews Therin in the Hall of the Servants. When Rand starts using it also, Aginor draws too much and burns himself up. (TEotW,Ch51)

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In hindsight is seems obvious, but I always rationalised that if it was possible to have people in the AoL as strong as LTT, then it should be possible now. Nyn's as strong as Moggy after all. I twigged him as a DF when I twigged he was close to Taim,

 

This

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I did not realize that Dashiva was a foresaken until it came out in the books. Reading back through there are a whole lot of hints.

 

I thought any strange behavior for the Ashaman was due to madness for the most part.

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I didn't realize it until we were flat out told so in the books. I thought Taim was obviously Demandred and therefore there would be no reason for there to be two forsaken in the Black Tower. Before the reveal in WH I just figured Dashiva was a DF who would eventually succomb to his madness and in the process give up a hint to Rand who Taim really was. Then I discovered Dragonmount and R.J.'s quotes totally squashing my oh so unique Taim is Demandred theory.

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A bit like my 'Olver is Gaidal Cain' theory..... :rolleyes::wink:

 

Yes. Yes. I know. I KNOW!! :tongue:

 

But seriously, it's amazing how many newcomers to these forums think along those lines..

Edited by FarShainMael

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I didn't figure it out, too. Although in retrospect, the scene in Altara (TPoD) was a dead giveaway;

"I am well aware how long you have channeled," he said in an icy, almost contemptuous voice, "but surely even you can feel it.

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Well we can see earlier on that hes hiding who he really is, and how hes been instructing some of the other ashaman like when Rand was wounded by the dagger. (The healing)

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What gave it away for me was the scene in Path of Daggers where he undergoes a complete personality change and starts to lecture Rand on the "strangeness" of Saidin (during Rand's campaign against the Seanchan in Altara). He's suddenly a different person altogether, angry and pedantic instead of his typical aloof and apathetic self, which made me think the whole "guy with his head in the clouds" thing was a front. The fact that we knew Aginor was in his new body trying to position himself made him the prime suspect.

 

This, though from dim memory I don't think I actually clued in that he was Osan'gar specifically, just that there was more to him than met the eye.

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This takes me back a ways. :smile:

 

I remember knowing something was up with Dashiva after he coached Flinn with Healing, and thought he might be Osan'gar or at least someone other than what he seemed (especially after his outburst in Altara), but then again I was also just about positive Taim was Demandred, too.

 

I was on my first re-read like, maybe on book 5? and all the great foreshadowing I found prompted me to search online for discussion of the series, and that was one of the first topics I came upon. This was between TPOD and WH and people had pretty much collected all the evidence and it seemed all but certain. So I didn't really figure it out for sure myself, but needless to say that by the time WH came out, the reveal was simply a concrete confirmation rather than any surprise.

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What gave it away for me was the scene in Path of Daggers where he undergoes a complete personality change and starts to lecture Rand on the "strangeness" of Saidin (during Rand's campaign against the Seanchan in Altara). He's suddenly a different person altogether, angry and pedantic instead of his typical aloof and apathetic self, which made me think the whole "guy with his head in the clouds" thing was a front. The fact that we knew Aginor was in his new body trying to position himself made him the prime suspect.

 

This for me...I just love all of the writing in the Damona Mountain Campaign.

 

TPoD. Ch. 24

For that reason, it was something of a shock when Dashiva awkwardly booted his slab-sided mount ahead of the rest. That plain face, so often vague or bemused with the fellow’s own thoughts, was fixed in a worried frown. It was morethan something of a shock when he seized saidinas soon as he reached Rand and wove a barrier around them against eavesdropping. Lews Therin did not waste breath – if a disembodied voice hadbreath – on mutters about killing; he lurched for the Source snarling wordlessly, tried to claw the Power away from Rand. And just as abruptly fell silent and vanished.

"There’s something askew with saidinhere, something amiss," Dashiva said, sounding not at all vague. In fact, he sounded... precise. And testy. A teacher lecturing a particularly dense pupil. He even stabbed a finger at Rand. "I don’t know what it is. Nothing can twist saidin, and if it could be twisted, we’d have felt it back in the mountains. Well, there wassomething there, yesterday, but so small... I feel it clearly here, though. Saidinis... eager. I know; I know. Saidinis not alive. But it... pulses, here. It is difficult to control."

Rand forced his hand to loosen its grip on the Dragon Scepter. He had always been sure Dashiva was nearly as mad as Lews Therin himself. Usually the man maintained a better hold on himself, though, however precariously. "I’ve been channeling longer than you, Dashiva. You’re just feeling the taint more." He could not soften his tone. Light, he could not go mad yet, and neither could they! "Get to your place. We’ll be moving soon." The scouts had to return soon. Even in this flatter country, even limited to no further than they could see, ten miles would not take long to cover, Traveling.

Dashiva made no move to obey. Instead, he opened his mouth angrily, then snapped it shut. Shaking visibly, he drew a deep breath. "I am well aware how long you have channeled," he said in an icy, almost contemptuous voice, "but surely even you can feel it. Feel, man! I don’t like ‘strange’ applied to saidin, and I don’t want to die or... or be burned out because you’re blind! Look at my ward! Look at it!"

Rand stared. Dashiva pushing himself forward was peculiar enough, but Dashiva in a temper?

Edited by Suttree

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Exactly Suttree, awesome scene and great overall sequence.

 

And I felt the same way about Demandred, Sid. I cling to my being correct about Dashiva because it's one of the few spot-on guesses I made amidst a far larger amount of incorrect ones...

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There are so many flying cluebats that a re-read is an occupational hazard...but on my first reading, I definitely did not make the Dashiva connection until he's revealed in WH. I always did like Dashiva. Thought he was much cooler than Halima.

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