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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

A poor bargain?


chongjasmine
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Just read the part where nynaeve and elayne agree to let 20 sisters teach the sea folks whatever they want in exchange for their help in using the bowl of the wind. I thought that was an example of poor bargaining.

 

Giving the bowl of the wind to the sea folks after they use the bowl of the wind should be enough, in my opinion.

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No arguments here, the bowl should have been enough. Since the WF needed the weather to change as well, they should have done it because it needed to be done, but never mind.

 

I guess on the other hand, 20 sisters to teach the WF, would also have allowed those 20 sisters to learn from the WF, Elayne and Nyn know that the WF have far more skill in manipulating teh weather than the AS. Unfortunately they sent the wrong sisters, instead of sending the ones to weak to get out of it they should have sent strong sisters that would have stood up for themselves. Since the terms for teachers weren't set, the AS could have demanded to be treated as they'd expect a teacher to be treated, instead of accepting how the WF generally treat teachers.

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The Sea Folk definitely got the best of the bargain.

 

However, I don't blame them. Elayne I suppose would be somewhat able to bargain, but Nynaeve is totally unsuited to diplomacy.

 

The Sea Folk, on the other hand, are notorious for their hard bargaining.

 

Two women who have barely any experience (Nynaeve having only left the country backwater of the TR not 2 years ago, Elayne closed up in the Palace until becoming a novice) up against Nesta din Reas Two Moons, Mistress of the Ships of the Atha'an Miere.

 

If that was not enough, the Sea Folk held all of the advantage. Elayne and Nynaeve needed the Sea Folk, they knew that AS couldn't do what needed to be done. They knew that the Bowl needed to be used, or the world would burn up.

 

When bargaining for the fate of the world, any price is worth it. It was more the Sea Folk's greed and selfishness that led to the poor bargain, not fault on the girls' part.

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Yup, it was a poor bargain. It should have contained an exchange program instead of the teaching being only one way. But since the Windfinders were needed for the Bowl, I guess that was out of the question.

 

The way the Sea Folk treat their Aes Sedai teachers is completely unacceptable though. I don't know what happened to Merilille, but I understand her running away whatever the consequences. And the way they treat the Brown (can't remember her name) in KoD just pissed me off, she was basically a servant/slave.

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Beggars can not be choosers. Like several of you have said Nynaeve and Elyane are just young when it comes to matters like barganing and with the fate of the world at hand its hard to drive a hard bargain.

 

I find it hard to believe Elayne would have no diplomatic training. And the bargin wasn't just poor, it was HORRIBLE.

 

I mean, what benefit did the WT get? Nothing to be honest. The weather was a benefit to all, the entire world. I know the girls were desperate, but the got screwed pretty damn bad. It's almost to the point of being dishonorable.

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No arguments here, the bowl should have been enough. Since the WF needed the weather to change as well, they should have done it because it needed to be done, but never mind.

 

I guess on the other hand, 20 sisters to teach the WF, would also have allowed those 20 sisters to learn from the WF, Elayne and Nyn know that the WF have far more skill in manipulating teh weather than the AS. Unfortunately they sent the wrong sisters, instead of sending the ones to weak to get out of it they should have sent strong sisters that would have stood up for themselves. Since the terms for teachers weren't set, the AS could have demanded to be treated as they'd expect a teacher to be treated, instead of accepting how the WF generally treat teachers.

 

You raise up quite an interesting point. I never thought that the Aes Sedai could have learnt from the sea folks as much as they could have taught the sea folks.

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It was a crappy bargain - Nyna didn't realize how WFs treated their teachers for one. Two, they were desperate.

 

To give them a little credit - even though, there's no way they could have known this - it may not have worked as well without the WFs to create the weaves.

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To give them a little credit - even though, there's no way they could have known this - it may not have worked as well without the WFs to create the weaves.

 

No, they did know this. They knew Aes Sedai couldn't do it. That's why they went to the Sea Folk in the first place. They were the only people who would be able to use it successfully.

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To give them a little credit - even though, there's no way they could have known this - it may not have worked as well without the WFs to create the weaves.

 

No, they did know this. They knew Aes Sedai couldn't do it. That's why they went to the Sea Folk in the first place. They were the only people who would be able to use it successfully.

Ah, well, they did what they had to do then. The experienced sisters didn't fair much better with their negotiations on behalf of Rand.

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To give them a little credit - even though, there's no way they could have known this - it may not have worked as well without the WFs to create the weaves.

 

No, they did know this. They knew Aes Sedai couldn't do it. That's why they went to the Sea Folk in the first place. They were the only people who would be able to use it successfully.

Ah, well, they did what they had to do then. The experienced sisters didn't fair much better with their negotiations on behalf of Rand.

 

Indeed. I mean, I am not saying that they did well, they obviously didn't. But it wasn't their fault. It was the Sea Folk being greedy bastards and having WAY more experience than them. Merana a gray, with a ta'veren boost head start made a mess of things against Harine, a "second" in the Sea Folk chain of command.

 

Elayne and Nynaeve went up against the ruler herself. Nesta din Reas, with less than half of Merana's experience, no ta'veren luck and the burden of the entire world leaving them with a distinct disadvantage.

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To give them a little credit - even though, there's no way they could have known this - it may not have worked as well without the WFs to create the weaves.

 

No, they did know this. They knew Aes Sedai couldn't do it. That's why they went to the Sea Folk in the first place. They were the only people who would be able to use it successfully.

Ah, well, they did what they had to do then. The experienced sisters didn't fair much better with their negotiations on behalf of Rand.

 

Indeed. I mean, I am not saying that they did well, they obviously didn't. But it wasn't their fault. It was the Sea Folk being greedy bastards and having WAY more experience than them. Merana a gray, with a ta'veren boost head start made a mess of things against Harine, a "second" in the Sea Folk chain of command.

 

Elayne and Nynaeve went up against the ruler herself. Nesta din Reas, with less than half of Merana's experience, no ta'veren luck and the burden of the entire world leaving them with a distinct disadvantage.

Yeah, even though they both annoy me sometimes, I'd probably protect those two broads. I've got a soft spot for them.

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Ah, well, they did what they had to do then. The experienced sisters didn't fair much better with their negotiations on behalf of Rand.

 

Indeed. I mean, I am not saying that they did well, they obviously didn't. But it wasn't their fault. It was the Sea Folk being greedy bastards and having WAY more experience than them. Merana a gray, with a ta'veren boost head start made a mess of things against Harine, a "second" in the Sea Folk chain of command.

 

Rand panicked because of his claustrophobia and left, and without his ta'veren influence it went badly. I wouldn't fault Merana for that, as far as I know she didn't have any experience with the Sea Folk.

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To give them a little credit - even though, there's no way they could have known this - it may not have worked as well without the WFs to create the weaves.

 

No, they did know this. They knew Aes Sedai couldn't do it. That's why they went to the Sea Folk in the first place. They were the only people who would be able to use it successfully.

Ah, well, they did what they had to do then. The experienced sisters didn't fair much better with their negotiations on behalf of Rand.

 

Indeed. I mean, I am not saying that they did well, they obviously didn't. But it wasn't their fault. It was the Sea Folk being greedy bastards and having WAY more experience than them. Merana a gray, with a ta'veren boost head start made a mess of things against Harine, a "second" in the Sea Folk chain of command.

 

Elayne and Nynaeve went up against the ruler herself. Nesta din Reas, with less than half of Merana's experience, no ta'veren luck and the burden of the entire world leaving them with a distinct disadvantage.

 

 

I think that last part would have given them some advantage.

 

Oh you want to die alongside the entire world? Ok fine, we walk...

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I agree that in the short term it looks like a bad deal for the WT, but look at the long term. The super girls all know that the WT's numbers have been dwindling and over the course of those books they know that channelers have existed with the sea folk and the kin. They have made bonds with them that can increase their numbers, and even not, increase their power in flows. This shows that the ignorance and arrogance that the WT has been operating under isn't working, it doesn't need to be this exclusive club for them, now their doors are open to others to join their ranks, or at least exchange information and freely go back to where they came from. The diplomacy of the deal over a long term far outweighs they short term losses should they manage it properly over time.

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I agree that in the short term it looks like a bad deal for the WT, but look at the long term. The super girls all know that the WT's numbers have been dwindling and over the course of those books they know that channelers have existed with the sea folk and the kin. They have made bonds with them that can increase their numbers, and even not, increase their power in flows. This shows that the ignorance and arrogance that the WT has been operating under isn't working, it doesn't need to be this exclusive club for them, now their doors are open to others to join their ranks, or at least exchange information and freely go back to where they came from. The diplomacy of the deal over a long term far outweighs they short term losses should they manage it properly over time.

That is a good point. There's the young one who is at Nyna's level that asks Nyna if she can train at the Tower after Nyna trains her.

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I agree that in the short term it looks like a bad deal for the WT, but look at the long term. The super girls all know that the WT's numbers have been dwindling and over the course of those books they know that channelers have existed with the sea folk and the kin. They have made bonds with them that can increase their numbers, and even not, increase their power in flows. This shows that the ignorance and arrogance that the WT has been operating under isn't working, it doesn't need to be this exclusive club for them, now their doors are open to others to join their ranks, or at least exchange information and freely go back to where they came from. The diplomacy of the deal over a long term far outweighs they short term losses should they manage it properly over time.

That is a good point. There's the young one who is at Nyna's level that asks Nyna if she can train at the Tower after Nyna trains her.

 

Yes, good one, nothing wrong with networking.

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I agree that in the short term it looks like a bad deal for the WT, but look at the long term. The super girls all know that the WT's numbers have been dwindling and over the course of those books they know that channelers have existed with the sea folk and the kin. They have made bonds with them that can increase their numbers, and even not, increase their power in flows. This shows that the ignorance and arrogance that the WT has been operating under isn't working, it doesn't need to be this exclusive club for them, now their doors are open to others to join their ranks, or at least exchange information and freely go back to where they came from. The diplomacy of the deal over a long term far outweighs they short term losses should they manage it properly over time.

That is a good point. There's the young one who is at Nyna's level that asks Nyna if she can train at the Tower after Nyna trains her.

 

Yes, good one, nothing wrong with networking.

Lol. The Tower needs a marketing team and business cards. ;)

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The initial deal was poor, but still had potential, they just needed to send strong AS, timing wise that's problematic due to Last Battle approaching and the Tower split. But long-term it could have worked. Egwenes new deal should work really well, if adopted by everyone (think it had to be discussed among groups first before agreement, but fingers crossed).

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