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etched Chaos

Could Egwene turn from the light?

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HE is missing some key element, but he doesn't sound like a man without any plan.

 

But you combine the missing something "vital" with the fact that he "thinks" saidin and saidar must be used and "I don't have the answers yet". All combined it doesn't make me think he has much beyond an idea of what to do. It is probably fair to say he has the structure but not details as of yet.

Well, who would? It's not every day that someone tries to seal the hole to Hell. But, who would know more than the one man who ever tried?

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HE is missing some key element, but he doesn't sound like a man without any plan.

 

But you combine the missing something "vital" with the fact that he "thinks" saidin and saidar must be used and "I don't have the answers yet". All combined it doesn't make me think he has much beyond an idea of what to do. It is probably fair to say he has the structure but not details as of yet.

Well, who would? It's not every day that someone tries to seal the hole to Hell. But, who would know more than the one man who ever tried?

 

Again let's try to stick to what the point is. No one ever said there is someone who could do a better job or knows more. That would be totally unrealistic. As unrealistic as Egwene doing anything other than she did With Rands purposeful atangonization.

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HE is missing some key element, but he doesn't sound like a man without any plan.

 

But you combine the missing something "vital" with the fact that he "thinks" saidin and saidar must be used and "I don't have the answers yet". All combined it doesn't make me think he has much beyond an idea of what to do. It is probably fair to say he has the structure but not details as of yet.

Well, who would? It's not every day that someone tries to seal the hole to Hell. But, who would know more than the one man who ever tried?

 

Again let's try to stick to what the point is. No one ever said there is someone who could do a better job or knows more. That would be totally unrealistic. As unrealistic as Egwene doing anything other than she did With Rands purposeful atangonization.

What is the point? We're not even talking about the OP topic to begin with. Is the point that he could have discussed this with her? We've gone over that. She knows the basis of what plan he has. If she wants to talk with him she can find the time. I don't blame him for not giving over what he does know to a compromised Tower.

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HE is missing some key element, but he doesn't sound like a man without any plan.

 

But you combine the missing something "vital" with the fact that he "thinks" saidin and saidar must be used and "I don't have the answers yet". All combined it doesn't make me think he has much beyond an idea of what to do. It is probably fair to say he has the structure but not details as of yet.

Well, who would? It's not every day that someone tries to seal the hole to Hell. But, who would know more than the one man who ever tried?

 

Again let's try to stick to what the point is. No one ever said there is someone who could do a better job or knows more. That would be totally unrealistic. As unrealistic as Egwene doing anything other than she did With Rands purposeful atangonization.

What is the point? We're not even talking about the OP topic to begin with. Is the point that he could have discussed this with her? We've gone over that. She knows the basis of what plan he has. If she wants to talk with him she can find the time. I don't blame him for not giving over what he does know to a compromised Tower.

 

Damer and I were discussing how much of a plan he has It has nothing to do with anyone "knowing" better. Although it is interesting to note without Fel they would have no idea how to begin so I guess one could assume he did?

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HE is missing some key element, but he doesn't sound like a man without any plan.

 

But you combine the missing something "vital" with the fact that he "thinks" saidin and saidar must be used and "I don't have the answers yet". All combined it doesn't make me think he has much beyond an idea of what to do. It is probably fair to say he has the structure but not details as of yet.

Well, who would? It's not every day that someone tries to seal the hole to Hell. But, who would know more than the one man who ever tried?

 

Again let's try to stick to what the point is. No one ever said there is someone who could do a better job or knows more. That would be totally unrealistic. As unrealistic as Egwene doing anything other than she did With Rands purposeful atangonization.

What is the point? We're not even talking about the OP topic to begin with. Is the point that he could have discussed this with her? We've gone over that. She knows the basis of what plan he has. If she wants to talk with him she can find the time. I don't blame him for not giving over what he does know to a compromised Tower.

 

Damer and I were discussing how much of a plan he has It has nothing to do with anyone "knowing" better. Although it is interesting to note without Fel they would have no idea how to begin so I guess one could assume he did?

We actually don't know where he'd be without Fel. When Fel told him the rubble had to be removed, Rand was not even close to being intergrated with LTT. He still was asking him "are you really there", etc.

 

Well, he has the outline of a plan, and possibly more. We don't know.

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HE is missing some key element, but he doesn't sound like a man without any plan.

 

But you combine the missing something "vital" with the fact that he "thinks" saidin and saidar must be used and "I don't have the answers yet". All combined it doesn't make me think he has much beyond an idea of what to do. It is probably fair to say he has the structure but not details as of yet.

Well, who would? It's not every day that someone tries to seal the hole to Hell. But, who would know more than the one man who ever tried?

 

Again let's try to stick to what the point is. No one ever said there is someone who could do a better job or knows more. That would be totally unrealistic. As unrealistic as Egwene doing anything other than she did With Rands purposeful atangonization.

What is the point? We're not even talking about the OP topic to begin with. Is the point that he could have discussed this with her? We've gone over that. She knows the basis of what plan he has. If she wants to talk with him she can find the time. I don't blame him for not giving over what he does know to a compromised Tower.

 

Damer and I were discussing how much of a plan he has It has nothing to do with anyone "knowing" better. Although it is interesting to note without Fel they would have no idea how to begin so I guess one could assume he did?

We actually don't know where he'd be without Fel. When Fel told him the rubble had to be removed, Rand was not even close to being intergrated with LTT. He still was asking him "are you really there", etc.

 

Well, he has the outline of a plan, and possibly more. We don't know.

 

Considering LTTs first plan was flawed, the entire second plan is based around Fel's concept and the major "vital" part of the plan Min is looking for is in his books think its safe to say they wouldn't be that far without him.

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It can just be as simple as clearing out the rubble and having women weave the flows with him.

 

 

Edit to add: tainting saidin may have been made possible because only have the OP was used.

 

Edit to the Edit: Considering LTT was supposed to be a genius for his time and has already been there, done that in terms of sealing the bore, who knows what he might figure out.

Edited by thisguy

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It can just be as simple as clearing out the rubble and having women weave the flows with him.

 

 

Edit to add: tainting saidin may have been made possible because only have the OP was used.

 

Edit to the Edit: Considering LTT was supposed to be a genius for his time and has already been there, done that in terms of sealing the bore, who knows what he might figure out.

 

No it can't. As has been noted earlier in this thread per RJ if The other half had been used the only difference would be Saidar tainted as well and it was a "lucky thing" the women were not involved. Even with LTTs memories Rand says he "doesn't have the answers". The plan is based on Fel's ideas and books. You can't simply say "who knows" when that is how the books are written. In fact we do know because he wouldn't be totally relying on Min and those materials if things were different.

Edited by Suttree

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It can just be as simple as clearing out the rubble and having women weave the flows with him.

 

 

Edit to add: tainting saidin may have been made possible because only have the OP was used.

 

Edit to the Edit: Considering LTT was supposed to be a genius for his time and has already been there, done that in terms of sealing the bore, who knows what he might figure out.

 

No it can't. As has been noted earlier in this thread per RJ if The other half had been used the only difference would be Saidar tainted as well and it was a "lucky thing" the women were not involved. Even with LTTs memories Rand says he "doesn't have the answers". The plan is based on Fel's ideas and books. You can't simply say "who knows" when that is how the books are written. In fact we do know because he wouldn't be totally relying on Min and those materials if things were different.

Actually, from the books we don't know about using the whole OP. From RJ, himself, some people know. As for the rest, I guess we'll just wait and see.

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It can just be as simple as clearing out the rubble and having women weave the flows with him.

 

 

Edit to add: tainting saidin may have been made possible because only have the OP was used.

 

Edit to the Edit: Considering LTT was supposed to be a genius for his time and has already been there, done that in terms of sealing the bore, who knows what he might figure out.

 

No it can't. As has been noted earlier in this thread per RJ if The other half had been used the only difference would be Saidar tainted as well and it was a "lucky thing" the women were not involved. Even with LTTs memories Rand says he "doesn't have the answers". The plan is based on Fel's ideas and books. You can't simply say "who knows" when that is how the books are written. In fact we do know because he wouldn't be totally relying on Min and those materials if things were different.

Actually, from the books we don't know about using the whole OP. From RJ, himself, some people know. As for the rest, I guess we'll just wait and see.

 

Look thisguy, I really enjoy debating with you but do we have to split hairs down to this level? Quite obviously the part "we know" from the books is that the plan is based off Fel's concept, that Rand "doesnt have the answers" and that the "vital" part Min is looking for is coming from Fel's books. There really is nothing for us to see unless you are arguing that all that set up and those resources will be thrown out the window in favor of Rand going it alone.

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It can just be as simple as clearing out the rubble and having women weave the flows with him.

 

 

Edit to add: tainting saidin may have been made possible because only have the OP was used.

 

Edit to the Edit: Considering LTT was supposed to be a genius for his time and has already been there, done that in terms of sealing the bore, who knows what he might figure out.

 

No it can't. As has been noted earlier in this thread per RJ if The other half had been used the only difference would be Saidar tainted as well and it was a "lucky thing" the women were not involved. Even with LTTs memories Rand says he "doesn't have the answers". The plan is based on Fel's ideas and books. You can't simply say "who knows" when that is how the books are written. In fact we do know because he wouldn't be totally relying on Min and those materials if things were different.

Actually, from the books we don't know about using the whole OP. From RJ, himself, some people know. As for the rest, I guess we'll just wait and see.

 

Look thisguy, I really enjoy debating with you but do we have to split hairs down to this level? Quite obviously the part "we know" from the books is that the plan is based off Fel's concept, that Rand "doesnt have the answers" and that the "vital" part Min is looking for is coming from Fel's books. There really is nothing for us to see unless you are arguing that all that set up and those resources will be thrown out the window in favor of Rand going it alone.

No, we don't. But, I think other people need to look to their own posts for splitting hairs then as I just went through this from the other end yesterday and a distinction was made between the books and RJ's own words outside of the books. Funny that.

Anyway, it seems to me that the only thing missing from the plan is some kind of buffer.

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But, I think other people need to look to their own posts for splitting hairs then as I just went through this from the other end yesterday and a distinction was made between the books and RJ's own words outside of the books.

 

What thread? Would be interested to check it out...

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Well, just because LTT's plan failed (or rather did not succeed as well as expected), does not mean every bit of it was bad, or that LTT's knowledge of the bore, the DO, and the seals will not come in play at some point. I don't see Min suddenly figuring out everything and explaining in detail to Rand what he must do. I think either she or someone else (perhaps Moiraine) will give him the pieces, and then Rand, with LTT's understanding of the whole thing, will put together the puzzle. He's already been shown to be capable of this with the Cleansing. Of course with him needing to die at some point, I expect it's going to be quite a bit more complicated than this.

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Well, just because LTT's plan failed (or rather did not succeed as well as expected), does not mean every bit of it was bad, or that LTT's knowledge of the bore, the DO, and the seals will not come in play at some point. I don't see Min suddenly figuring out everything and explaining in detail to Rand what he must do. I think either she or someone else (perhaps Moiraine) will give him the pieces, and then Rand, with LTT's understanding of the whole thing, will put together the puzzle. He's already been shown to be capable of this with the Cleansing. Of course with him needing to die at some point, I expect it's going to be quite a bit more complicated than this.

 

Yeah of course and I think you know where I sit with that MA as we have discussed it many times over the years. thisguy seemed to be saying Rand could have done it without Fel in addition to saying it could be as easy as just doing the same thing with both sides of the OP. We know of course neither of those are correct. My point was Rand needed the base of Fel's concept and materials to shape his plan.

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But, I think other people need to look to their own posts for splitting hairs then as I just went through this from the other end yesterday and a distinction was made between the books and RJ's own words outside of the books.

 

What thread? Would be interested to check it out...

you saw it and commented on it yesterday

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Well, just because LTT's plan failed (or rather did not succeed as well as expected), does not mean every bit of it was bad, or that LTT's knowledge of the bore, the DO, and the seals will not come in play at some point. I don't see Min suddenly figuring out everything and explaining in detail to Rand what he must do. I think either she or someone else (perhaps Moiraine) will give him the pieces, and then Rand, with LTT's understanding of the whole thing, will put together the puzzle. He's already been shown to be capable of this with the Cleansing. Of course with him needing to die at some point, I expect it's going to be quite a bit more complicated than this.

 

Yeah of course and I think you know where I sit with that MA as we have discussed it many times over the years. thisguy seemed to be saying Rand could have done it without Fel in addition to saying it could be as easy as just doing the same thing with both sides of the OP. We know of course neither of those are correct. My point was Rand needed the base of Fel's concept and materials to shape his plan.

Actually, we don't know that. We can't.

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But, I think other people need to look to their own posts for splitting hairs then as I just went through this from the other end yesterday and a distinction was made between the books and RJ's own words outside of the books.

 

What thread? Would be interested to check it out...

you saw it and commented on it yesterday

 

? No idea what you are talking about. A ton of this is quick posts at work so I'm not always paying close attention. Could you point me in the right direction?

 

Well, just because LTT's plan failed (or rather did not succeed as well as expected), does not mean every bit of it was bad, or that LTT's knowledge of the bore, the DO, and the seals will not come in play at some point. I don't see Min suddenly figuring out everything and explaining in detail to Rand what he must do. I think either she or someone else (perhaps Moiraine) will give him the pieces, and then Rand, with LTT's understanding of the whole thing, will put together the puzzle. He's already been shown to be capable of this with the Cleansing. Of course with him needing to die at some point, I expect it's going to be quite a bit more complicated than this.

 

Yeah of course and I think you know where I sit with that MA as we have discussed it many times over the years. thisguy seemed to be saying Rand could have done it without Fel in addition to saying it could be as easy as just doing the same thing with both sides of the OP. We know of course neither of those are correct. My point was Rand needed the base of Fel's concept and materials to shape his plan.

Actually, we don't know that. We can't.

 

Of course we can, it's how the books were written. If he didn't need Fel and his concepts it would have happened a different way. Especially considering with all his knowledge he didn't hit on the right path the first time around.

Edited by Suttree

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But, I think other people need to look to their own posts for splitting hairs then as I just went through this from the other end yesterday and a distinction was made between the books and RJ's own words outside of the books.

 

What thread? Would be interested to check it out...

you saw it and commented on it yesterday

 

? No idea what you are talking about. A ton of this is quick posts at work so I'm not always paying close attention. Could you point me in the right direction?

 

Well, just because LTT's plan failed (or rather did not succeed as well as expected), does not mean every bit of it was bad, or that LTT's knowledge of the bore, the DO, and the seals will not come in play at some point. I don't see Min suddenly figuring out everything and explaining in detail to Rand what he must do. I think either she or someone else (perhaps Moiraine) will give him the pieces, and then Rand, with LTT's understanding of the whole thing, will put together the puzzle. He's already been shown to be capable of this with the Cleansing. Of course with him needing to die at some point, I expect it's going to be quite a bit more complicated than this.

 

Yeah of course and I think you know where I sit with that MA as we have discussed it many times over the years. thisguy seemed to be saying Rand could have done it without Fel in addition to saying it could be as easy as just doing the same thing with both sides of the OP. We know of course neither of those are correct. My point was Rand needed the base of Fel's concept and materials to shape his plan.

Actually, we don't know that. We can't.

 

Of course we can, it's how the books were written. If he didn't need Fel and his concepts it would have happened a different way. Especially considering with all his knowledge he didn't hit on the right path the first time around.

the books were also written with an infinite number of alternate realities being probabilities.

 

as for the other - i believe it's on the cadsuane thread

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But, I think other people need to look to their own posts for splitting hairs then as I just went through this from the other end yesterday and a distinction was made between the books and RJ's own words outside of the books.

 

What thread? Would be interested to check it out...

you saw it and commented on it yesterday

 

? No idea what you are talking about. A ton of this is quick posts at work so I'm not always paying close attention. Could you point me in the right direction?

 

Well, just because LTT's plan failed (or rather did not succeed as well as expected), does not mean every bit of it was bad, or that LTT's knowledge of the bore, the DO, and the seals will not come in play at some point. I don't see Min suddenly figuring out everything and explaining in detail to Rand what he must do. I think either she or someone else (perhaps Moiraine) will give him the pieces, and then Rand, with LTT's understanding of the whole thing, will put together the puzzle. He's already been shown to be capable of this with the Cleansing. Of course with him needing to die at some point, I expect it's going to be quite a bit more complicated than this.

 

Yeah of course and I think you know where I sit with that MA as we have discussed it many times over the years. thisguy seemed to be saying Rand could have done it without Fel in addition to saying it could be as easy as just doing the same thing with both sides of the OP. We know of course neither of those are correct. My point was Rand needed the base of Fel's concept and materials to shape his plan.

Actually, we don't know that. We can't.

 

Of course we can, it's how the books were written. If he didn't need Fel and his concepts it would have happened a different way. Especially considering with all his knowledge he didn't hit on the right path the first time around.

 

Glad I'm not the only one :)

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If Latra hadn't opposed LTT, the women would have gone as insane as the men. Her opposition might have been misguided, but ultimately it proved to be the correct choice. Had she not taken the stand she did, things would have been much, much worse. Also, it is worth bearing in mind that it is only by a fluke that LTT's strike actually helped the Light. The Light's forces were at risk of being overrun if any of the three major offensives they were faced with broke through - LTT's plan did absolutely nothing to counter those major offensives. It dealt only with Shai'tan and the sealing of the Bore, not the armies that the Shadow had already amassed. If he hadn't caught thirteen of the Shadow's highest ranking people, then the Light would likely still have lost.

 

Surely if you’re going to argue that with hindsight having the men only seal the bore and thus the taint only affects saidin that Latra was right, then by the same reasoning LTT was right to attack the bore and seal the Forsaken? Latra didn’t know of the taint, and so could be considered lucky that the women weren’t involved, by the same reasoning LTT was lucky the Forsaken were sealed. I also agree with his priorities. While the bore remained open any victories the light had would ultimately end up futile, closing the bore had to be the priority.

Closing the Bore but leaving the enemy forces in position to overrun you and reopen it at their leisure is surely a futile victory. And that is what LTT's plan would likely have resulted in if all went to plan. As it was a plan that offered high risk for minimal gain, opposing it was a reasonable decision - that's with the knowledge she had. She didn't predict the Taint, which was an even better reason to stay out if it, but denying LTT further resources to squander on the strike was reasonable given what she knew. And yes, LTT was ultimately right to attempt the strike - something only obvious with hindsight. Hindsight alone justifies LTT's action, hindsight and foresight both justify LPD's.

 

The Light's forces were at risk of being overrun if any of the three major offensives they were faced with broke through - LTT's plan did absolutely nothing to counter those major offensives. It dealt only with Shai'tan and the sealing of the Bore, not the armies that the Shadow had already amassed. If he hadn't caught thirteen of the Shadow's highest ranking people, then the Light would likely still have lost.

 

Not necessarily. The Forsaken aren't exactly well known for working together. With the loss of the DO's leadership, they all might well have started fighting against each other. In fact that's exactly what happened. The 13 might well have been the most power hungry and backstabbing (coughGraendalcough) of all the Forsaken. Demandred, Sammael, and Bel'al were the shadow's best commanders but they may well have been leading those armies against each other after the sealing whereas the Light would have stayed unified. Dealing with the DO was definitely the utmost priority.

After the strike, the war continued for decades, against an increasingly fractured Shadow, before the madness of the Breaking forced them to abandon hostilities. While the Chosen are going to turn on each other sooner or later, they have also demonstrated an ability to work together. In other words, those who rank most highly among them need only hold an alliance of the biggest players together for a few months to win the war, then some will turn on each other but others will turn to re-drilling the Bore, as it represents their pathway to the immortality they desire. Sealing the Bore represents an inconvenience to the Shadow, not a death blow.

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Egwene is comparable in every respect to Pedron Niall. Both think that their organization is the best suited to save the world and will not move away from that way of thinking. However she is not evil or working for the shadow in anyway. Just arrogant and sexist.

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If Latra hadn't opposed LTT, the women would have gone as insane as the men. Her opposition might have been misguided, but ultimately it proved to be the correct choice. Had she not taken the stand she did, things would have been much, much worse. Also, it is worth bearing in mind that it is only by a fluke that LTT's strike actually helped the Light. The Light's forces were at risk of being overrun if any of the three major offensives they were faced with broke through - LTT's plan did absolutely nothing to counter those major offensives. It dealt only with Shai'tan and the sealing of the Bore, not the armies that the Shadow had already amassed. If he hadn't caught thirteen of the Shadow's highest ranking people, then the Light would likely still have lost.

 

Surely if you’re going to argue that with hindsight having the men only seal the bore and thus the taint only affects saidin that Latra was right, then by the same reasoning LTT was right to attack the bore and seal the Forsaken? Latra didn’t know of the taint, and so could be considered lucky that the women weren’t involved, by the same reasoning LTT was lucky the Forsaken were sealed. I also agree with his priorities. While the bore remained open any victories the light had would ultimately end up futile, closing the bore had to be the priority.

Closing the Bore but leaving the enemy forces in position to overrun you and reopen it at their leisure is surely a futile victory. And that is what LTT's plan would likely have resulted in if all went to plan. As it was a plan that offered high risk for minimal gain, opposing it was a reasonable decision - that's with the knowledge she had. She didn't predict the Taint, which was an even better reason to stay out if it, but denying LTT further resources to squander on the strike was reasonable given what she knew. And yes, LTT was ultimately right to attempt the strike - something only obvious with hindsight. Hindsight alone justifies LTT's action, hindsight and foresight both justify LPD's.

 

The Light's forces were at risk of being overrun if any of the three major offensives they were faced with broke through - LTT's plan did absolutely nothing to counter those major offensives. It dealt only with Shai'tan and the sealing of the Bore, not the armies that the Shadow had already amassed. If he hadn't caught thirteen of the Shadow's highest ranking people, then the Light would likely still have lost.

 

Not necessarily. The Forsaken aren't exactly well known for working together. With the loss of the DO's leadership, they all might well have started fighting against each other. In fact that's exactly what happened. The 13 might well have been the most power hungry and backstabbing (coughGraendalcough) of all the Forsaken. Demandred, Sammael, and Bel'al were the shadow's best commanders but they may well have been leading those armies against each other after the sealing whereas the Light would have stayed unified. Dealing with the DO was definitely the utmost priority.

After the strike, the war continued for decades, against an increasingly fractured Shadow, before the madness of the Breaking forced them to abandon hostilities. While the Chosen are going to turn on each other sooner or later, they have also demonstrated an ability to work together. In other words, those who rank most highly among them need only hold an alliance of the biggest players together for a few months to win the war, then some will turn on each other but others will turn to re-drilling the Bore, as it represents their pathway to the immortality they desire. Sealing the Bore represents an inconvenience to the Shadow, not a death blow.

All very good points Mr Ares. We really don't know if the the Bore could be reopened again the same way because we know so little about the conditions under with the Bore was drilled, or whether the fact that there was a Patch would hindered a second attempt, but regardless the forces of light should have been concerned of the possibility. I don't think Drilling the Bore a second time would be a speedy endeavour. We don't know if it took days or years for Mierin (Lanfear) and Beidomon to drill successfully. If the Bore is opened a second time, how long would it take for the Dark One to re-establish himself? the Collapse lasted 100-110 years, but the actual overt initiation of hostilities (the War of the Shadow) didn't start until 10 years before the Strike at Shayol Ghul (BWB, page 43), so would he start from scratch and have a light touch to start, or given his previous influence, would his presence rush back in full force? I suspect it would take years. It becomes a race, determined whether forces of light would hold on long enough for the Shadow leadership to fall apart, separated from the Dark One We know the situation was dire, but most of the desperation was concerning the disappearance of a window for victory, not complete annihilation by my read of the BWB on the War of the Shadow, We don't know if military victory for the Shadow was days or months away. IF the Forces of Light switched to tactics simply trying to buy time (such as the ones Rodel Ituralde used first in Tarabon, the Almoth PLain, and finally in MAradon) would there not be ample time for the Dark side to implode? We have a Randland example with the death of Hawkwing, war broke out amongst the various factions "almost at once" (BWB 116) an these are average power hungry nobles, not shadow stained Forsaken, chosen not just for their power, but for their greed (per Verin, told to Egwene, TGS)

 

Forsaken are driven for power, so aside from Ishmael who seems an exception, would the Forsaken really want to free the Dark One again if he was trapped, and they won the War of Shadow anyway, and had no foes to fight? .Releasing the Dark One only gives another power over you, so why would they not make themselves Kings with no oversight instead? And while awful for the forces of light, even with total defeat ,iwthout the Dark One if the Forsaken are just powerful men and women, well they will eventually die either through inter-Forsaken conflict or from the ravages of time. IF the Forsaken win completely and takes over the known world, it would be a dark time for humanity as bad or worse than the breaking and the forces of light would be screwed, but at least the Pattern would keep on spinning. THe Dark One needed to be stopped at all costs, not the Forces of the Shadow, to prevent and the breaking of the Wheel of Time and the end of existence itself.

 

While Latra was right on the problems of LTT's plan both in terms of foresight AND hindsight, it was the only plan they had, given their loss of the access keys and the impending lost of the Choeden Kal themselves (BWB p46). Perhaps those of the fateful concord still saw their plan was superior (Despite the original concerns about using that much power,blah, blah, blah), but there was no way to enact it. LTT had plenty of foresight - if there were any chance of stopping the dark one, he had to do something, even with a risk of failure at the time of the Strike or after from victory over the Shadow, under your scenario... we know of no third plan that could have handled the Bore, the Dark One, and the forces of the shadow all of the problems you describe, given the resources and information available. I certain cant come up with a scenario based on what we know, anyhow.

 

This was a question of no good choices, and picking only the least bad ones. In the end, they both ended up making choices that ended up for the best (of a bad, bad situation) : LTT on a cosmic scale, preserving the Pattern, Latra, as a custodian for Saidar as a balance for the evils of the counterstroke and as a source of power against the shadow for the dawning of a new age.

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Forsaken are driven for power, so aside from Ishmael who seems an exception, would the Forsaken really want to free the Dark One again if he was trapped, and they won the War of Shadow anyway, and had no foes to fight?

Yes. Unquestionably, yes. While it might give Shai'tan power over them, He can provide them with something they would otherwise lack - immortality. (Likely some of them would be TP addicts as well, and so feel very strongly that he needed to be freed ASAP.) They were promised eternal life. They only way to get it is to unleash Shai'tan again. So they will do so. They have no other choice.

 

This was a question of no good choices, and picking only the least bad ones. In the end, they both ended up making choices that ended up for the best (of a bad, bad situation) : LTT on a cosmic scale, preserving the Pattern, Latra, as a custodian for Saidar as a balance for the evils of the counterstroke and as a source of power against the shadow for the dawning of a new age.
This last is, I would say, quite important. It doesn't boil down to a question of whether LPD was right or whether LTT was, because in a way they both were. Just men going insane was a less bad outcome than all channelers, so Latra prevented things from becoming worse than they otherwise would have done. But, without the strike the Light would have lost. Faced with no good outcomes they managed to achieve what was probably the least bad.

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Forsaken are driven for power, so aside from Ishmael who seems an exception, would the Forsaken really want to free the Dark One again if he was trapped, and they won the War of Shadow anyway, and had no foes to fight?

 

Yes. Unquestionably, yes. While it might give Shai'tan power over them, He can provide them with something they would otherwise lack - immortality. (Likely some of them would be TP addicts as well, and so feel very strongly that he needed to be freed ASAP.) They were promised eternal life. They only way to get it is to unleash Shai'tan again. So they will do so. They have no other choice.

.

 

 

Good point. Choose Ultimate Power, or be satisfied with one step below and gain immortality. You may be right. Lanfear would chose the first I think, and Asmodean definitely the second. I have wondered about that promise of immortality... how does one substantiate it? Its not like any proof could be provided, not like granting Great Powers (like the True Power). One might theorize that the Forsaken accept that the Dark Lord has sufficient power to do what ever he wants once free, including the ability bestow immortality, either because he has been show to wreak other terrible miracles or perhaps based on his penetrating influence on servants of the dark that occurs when swearing to the shadow. Was he called the Father of Lies back during the War of Power? Would that knowledge that change how the Forsaken would chose once he was bound again, or do they trust the great lord to keep all promises?

 

OF course, I am not sure that sufficient will and technology would be enough for a victorious Army of Darkness TM to drill the Bore a second time even if they so desired, with Lanfear in the lead enacting the Drilling the same way she did before. As the Dark One only emerges at the end of an age in WOT cosmology, there may need to be a confluence of events and conditions for the Pattern to allow the Dark One the opportunity to break free. An alternate scenario would be that there is no set length of time for an Age, and we go from the millennia of the Age of Legends, to 10 short ugly years of the Age of Brevity, and the Dark One is released again, IN that case, he Dragon reborn is 10 years old, and the Pattern is screwed. A third possibility is that the End of the Age doesn't end with the Dark one resealed in his prison, but only truly ends when there is no reasonable chance of him taking a mulligan and getting back out before some undetermined set of conditions expire, but that seems unlikely. The Age of Legends obvious had philosophers and the like, but did they realize at the time, the way some of Rand and Friends and Moridin do, that this is conflict was part of an eternal battle between the Dark one and the Champion of the Creator, and did this knowledge that stop the cretor once = endgame it influence their decisions?... some of the things crazy LTT and Zen Rand have mentioned make suspect it was so, but I am not certain. I should look into it more.

 

This was a question of no good choices, and picking only the least bad ones. In the end, they both ended up making choices that ended up for the best (of a bad, bad situation) : LTT on a cosmic scale, preserving the Pattern, Latra, as a custodian for Saidar as a balance for the evils of the counterstroke and as a source of power against the shadow for the dawning of a new age.

This last is, I would say, quite important. It doesn't boil down to a question of whether LPD was right or whether LTT was, because in a way they both were. Just men going insane was a less bad outcome than all channelers, so Latra prevented things from becoming worse than they otherwise would have done. But, without the strike the Light would have lost. Faced with no good outcomes they managed to achieve what was probably the least bad.

 

Agreed. Sucks to be LTT and the 113, and the rest of Saidin-kind for that matter, but hey them are the breaks. at least your sacrifice wasn't for nothing, the Wheel continued to Weave.

 

I am not as well versed as many here at Dragonmount on the many answers RJ has given in his many, many interview and conventions, so maybe someone could help; I thought at one point in the the books (which I can't find, I curse the miscreants who borrow books and never return them!) was that it was suspected that women joining the men would have only tainted saidar as well, but has that actually been confirmed but the Creator himself? Is there a chance that Sealing the Bore would have had less problems and all would have been better with Men and Women working together (one of the big themes in the books)?

 

Boy I hope Rand (and possibly Egwene, but does she even know about Latra?) have really taken those lesson to heart for AMOL

Edited by Damer Sedai

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I thought at one point in the the books (which I can't find, I curse the miscreants who borrow books and never return them!) was that it was suspected that women joining the men would have only tainted saidar as well, but has that actually been confirmed but the Creator himself? Is there a chance that Sealing the Bore would have had less problems and all would have been better with Men and Women working together (one of the big themes in the books)?

 

As far as I remember, it is never mentioned in the books that Saidar would have been tainted along with Saidin. That detail only came about in an interview.

 

Interview: Jan 18th, 2003

 

COT Signing Report - Tallis (Paraphrased)

Tallis

Other "revelations":

Robert Jordan

Saidar would have definitely been tainted had female channelers participated in the sealing.

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