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Healing Naeff

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In Towers of Midnight we see Nynaeve healing Naeff of his madness, seeing the corruption as a "darkness" on his brain and pulling it off. Compare that with this RJ quote: "In the prologue of TEOTW we saw the True Power being used to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity." (from an ACOS signing report; I looked it up an Theoryland.)

 

Is this simply a mistake on Brandon's part, or something else? I'm inclined to call it a mistake, but what does everyone think?

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In Towers of Midnight we see Nynaeve healing Naeff of his madness, seeing the corruption as a "darkness" on his brain and pulling it off. Compare that with this RJ quote: "In the prologue of TEOTW we saw the True Power being used to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity." (from an ACOS signing report; I looked it up an Theoryland.)

 

Is this simply a mistake on Brandon's part, or something else? I'm inclined to call it a mistake, but what does everyone think?

 

She wasnt really usuing the standard Healing weaves if i recall correctly. More along the lines of Anti complusion type weave then healing each rupture as she yanked them out. thats my take on it

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In Towers of Midnight we see Nynaeve healing Naeff of his madness, seeing the corruption as a "darkness" on his brain and pulling it off. Compare that with this RJ quote: "In the prologue of TEOTW we saw the True Power being used to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity." (from an ACOS signing report; I looked it up an Theoryland.)

 

Is this simply a mistake on Brandon's part, or something else? I'm inclined to call it a mistake, but what does everyone think?

 

This was recently heavily argued in another thread. I cannot for the life of me recall what thread it was. (Sutts was in it, if you search his name you can probably find it).

 

It's either a bookism, or you can argue that she didn't use the OP to Heal insanity just heal it. (Little H vs big H means the actual weave wasn't involved).

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She wasnt really usuing the standard Healing weaves if i recall correctly. More along the lines of Anti complusion type weave then healing each rupture as she yanked them out. thats my take on it

Thats how i took it. The great from Nynaeve is she does a awesome looking outside the box. Nynaeve is the best healer in truth. I mean come on she discovered how to heal gentling and stilling

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The madness of male channellers isn't the same as regular insanity. The cause is fundamentally different. Nynaeve can't heal normal insanity, what she can do is undo the effects of the DO's touch on the brains of the men.

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The madness of male channellers isn't the same as regular insanity. The cause is fundamentally different. Nynaeve can't heal normal insanity, what she can do is undo the effects of the DO's touch on the brains of the men.

 

This is what Ive always believed. Normal madness wouldn't have the darkness, it would just be messed up brains.

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The madness of male channellers isn't the same as regular insanity. The cause is fundamentally different. Nynaeve can't heal normal insanity, what she can do is undo the effects of the DO's touch on the brains of the men.

 

This is what Ive always believed. Normal madness wouldn't have the darkness, it would just be messed up brains.

 

But why couldn't that be healed? We know it's either brain damage, or chemical imbalance, in theory healing should restore that.

 

Unless their madness is something special, and pure mental.

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The madness of male channellers isn't the same as regular insanity. The cause is fundamentally different. Nynaeve can't heal normal insanity, what she can do is undo the effects of the DO's touch on the brains of the men.

 

This is what Ive always believed. Normal madness wouldn't have the darkness, it would just be messed up brains.

 

But why couldn't that be healed? We know it's either brain damage, or chemical imbalance, in theory healing should restore that.

 

Unless their madness is something special, and pure mental.

 

Greandal was the best healer in things of the mind if i remember correctly.

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yeah, but Graendal isn't the healer. Semirhage is. We know this from Semi's PoV's and from what she said. Ergo skill in Healing is not what gives the ability to fix problems of the mind, ergo something about Healing doesn't fix the problems that cause the various forms of madness. The brain is infinitely more complex than anything else in the body, given that even today we don't understand exactly how it does what it does - we don't know how or if it generates consciousness or if there is a soul. If there is a soul (and in Randland there is) then the immaterial must interact with the material in some way and we haven't the slightest clue how that works. We know the immaterial has an effect on the material because the immaterial, the soul, is where all of that beings' memories and motivations are kept, and if that is the case, then damage to the way the soul and body interact is as likely a cause of madness as any other and that is not necessarily a material problem.

 

The reason Nynaeve can Heal "madness" is because it is an outside influence doing a form of physical damage to the brains of the men who have the taint. She pries up the thorns and heals the damage and once that is done, she casts a reverse of Compulsion to nullify the Compulsion that the taint is, in effect, and that negates it going forward. The memories of the problems they had with the taint remain behind, but they no longer have those thorns in their brain to cause further issue.

 

This is all imo, but I think it makes sense, given what we know or can infer of the relationship between body and soul. Or it could all be an early book-ism that RJ later changed his mind on. /shrug

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The madness of male channellers isn't the same as regular insanity. The cause is fundamentally different. Nynaeve can't heal normal insanity, what she can do is undo the effects of the DO's touch on the brains of the men.

 

This is what Ive always believed. Normal madness wouldn't have the darkness, it would just be messed up brains.

 

But why couldn't that be healed? We know it's either brain damage, or chemical imbalance, in theory healing should restore that.

 

Unless their madness is something special, and pure mental.

 

Greandal was the best healer in things of the mind if i remember correctly.

 

I dont recall her being the healer of the mind, but that she was the expert on the mind... She could know how to cause insanity, how to manipulate the mind and such, but not cure its insanity.

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I imagine the taint works similar to implanted stimuli, and suppresses/inhibits certain pathways to cause abnormal perception or other effects. Like compulsion in a way, external. Over time neurons degenerate so even if the stimulus is removed the damage is perm, but I would think male channelers die long before then. Patterning neuron pathways to account for damage is beyond OP, but removing the stimulus would be do-able.

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In Towers of Midnight we see Nynaeve healing Naeff of his madness, seeing the corruption as a "darkness" on his brain and pulling it off. Compare that with this RJ quote: "In the prologue of TEOTW we saw the True Power being used to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity." (from an ACOS signing report; I looked it up an Theoryland.)

 

Is this simply a mistake on Brandon's part, or something else? I'm inclined to call it a mistake, but what does everyone think?

 

She wasnt really usuing the standard Healing weaves if i recall correctly. More along the lines of Anti complusion type weave then healing each rupture as she yanked them out. thats my take on it

I took it more as a removal of the taint from his mind, madness is something else. The taint made him see the Fades in the shadows if I'm thinking of the right guy. She removed it from him and now he's fine. The taint slowly corrupts the mind, eating holes in it until madness is the result. Androl and his holding the power with the shadows closing in, remnants of the taint, which was if your recall escribed as a black vileness then later deeper than black as the mass of it hovered over shadar logoth in the cleansing.

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The madness of male channellers isn't the same as regular insanity. The cause is fundamentally different. Nynaeve can't heal normal insanity, what she can do is undo the effects of the DO's touch on the brains of the men.

 

This is what Ive always believed. Normal madness wouldn't have the darkness, it would just be messed up brains.

 

But why couldn't that be healed? We know it's either brain damage, or chemical imbalance, in theory healing should restore that.

 

Unless their madness is something special, and pure mental.

 

Greandal was the best healer in things of the mind if i remember correctly.

 

I dont recall her being the healer of the mind, but that she was the expert on the mind... She could know how to cause insanity, how to manipulate the mind and such, but not cure its insanity.

I think Gr was basically a One Power Psychiatrist in the AoL, if I remember correctly. There's that one chapter where she's torturing some random AS and her Warder and thinking back to the good old days.

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The madness of male channellers isn't the same as regular insanity. The cause is fundamentally different. Nynaeve can't heal normal insanity, what she can do is undo the effects of the DO's touch on the brains of the men.

 

This is what Ive always believed. Normal madness wouldn't have the darkness, it would just be messed up brains.

 

But why couldn't that be healed? We know it's either brain damage, or chemical imbalance, in theory healing should restore that.

 

Unless their madness is something special, and pure mental.

 

Greandal was the best healer in things of the mind if i remember correctly.

 

I dont recall her being the healer of the mind, but that she was the expert on the mind... She could know how to cause insanity, how to manipulate the mind and such, but not cure its insanity.

I think Gr was basically a One Power Psychiatrist in the AoL, if I remember correctly. There's that one chapter where she's torturing some random AS and her Warder and thinking back to the good old days.

I dont have the books, so Ill take your word for it.

Edited by Knivy

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The madness of male channellers isn't the same as regular insanity. The cause is fundamentally different. Nynaeve can't heal normal insanity, what she can do is undo the effects of the DO's touch on the brains of the men.

 

This is what Ive always believed. Normal madness wouldn't have the darkness, it would just be messed up brains.

 

But why couldn't that be healed? We know it's either brain damage, or chemical imbalance, in theory healing should restore that.

 

Unless their madness is something special, and pure mental.

 

Greandal was the best healer in things of the mind if i remember correctly.

 

I dont recall her being the healer of the mind, but that she was the expert on the mind... She could know how to cause insanity, how to manipulate the mind and such, but not cure its insanity.

I think Gr was basically a One Power Psychiatrist in the AoL, if I remember correctly. There's that one chapter where she's torturing some random AS and her Warder and thinking back to the good old days.

I dont have the books, so Ill take your word for it.

NO!!! Don't do that! ;) I believe it's somewhere between book 4 and 6. It's one Chapter. If I weren't doing a reread, I never would have remembered it. :)

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Eating holes in the brain is basically the brain degenerating itself. The taint has to act as a foreign stimulus and over time the "holes" would appear due to inactive pathways.

 

The madness of male channellers isn't the same as regular insanity. The cause is fundamentally different. Nynaeve can't heal normal insanity, what she can do is undo the effects of the DO's touch on the brains of the men.

 

This is what Ive always believed. Normal madness wouldn't have the darkness, it would just be messed up brains.

 

But why couldn't that be healed? We know it's either brain damage, or chemical imbalance, in theory healing should restore that.

 

Unless their madness is something special, and pure mental.

 

Greandal was the best healer in things of the mind if i remember correctly.

 

I dont recall her being the healer of the mind, but that she was the expert on the mind... She could know how to cause insanity, how to manipulate the mind and such, but not cure its insanity.

I think Gr was basically a One Power Psychiatrist in the AoL, if I remember correctly. There's that one chapter where she's torturing some random AS and her Warder and thinking back to the good old days.

 

That was Semirhage.

Edited by driedraspberry

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Basically, madness and Taint induced insanity is two different things.

 

Madness of the mind is an abnormality in the brain's function due to some kind of brain damage or natural occurrence. Changing the brain's structure or whatever abnormality, is impossible.

 

The Taint is akin to Compulsion. The man is not actually mad. There is nothing wrong with his brain. It is just that the Taint latches on like a leech and controls the mind. Once that control is gone, the brain operates in it's normal state.

 

It is hardly a mistake, it is clearly something intended by RJ. It is a huge plot detail, there is no way it was simply a mistake by Brandon.

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To settle this confusion about Graendal, I'm going to point you all to two sources.

 

Firstly, when Semirhage is captured by Rand, and she says that Rand is hearing the voice of Lews Therin, she then goes on to say words to the effect of "Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone hearing a real voice".

 

Secondly, if you look at the BWB, you will see that in the entry from Graendal, it begins with something like "While Semirhage was a famous healer of the body, the forsaken known as Graendal was an equally famous healer of the mind".

 

Both these quotes are from memory so not 100% accurate, but I guarantee you if you look in those two places, you'll find I'm right.

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To settle this confusion about Graendal, I'm going to point you all to two sources.

 

Firstly, when Semirhage is captured by Rand, and she says that Rand is hearing the voice of Lews Therin, she then goes on to say words to the effect of "Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone hearing a real voice".

 

Secondly, if you look at the BWB, you will see that in the entry from Graendal, it begins with something like "While Semirhage was a famous healer of the body, the forsaken known as Graendal was an equally famous healer of the mind".

 

Both these quotes are from memory so not 100% accurate, but I guarantee you if you look in those two places, you'll find I'm right.

Thanks, I havent read the BWB, so I missed that.

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To settle this confusion about Graendal, I'm going to point you all to two sources.

 

Firstly, when Semirhage is captured by Rand, and she says that Rand is hearing the voice of Lews Therin, she then goes on to say words to the effect of "Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone hearing a real voice".

 

Secondly, if you look at the BWB, you will see that in the entry from Graendal, it begins with something like "While Semirhage was a famous healer of the body, the forsaken known as Graendal was an equally famous healer of the mind".

 

Both these quotes are from memory so not 100% accurate, but I guarantee you if you look in those two places, you'll find I'm right.

Thanks, I havent read the BWB, so I missed that.

 

 

I plan on gettign the BWB for christmas along with AMOL both.

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Basically, madness and Taint induced insanity is two different things.

 

Madness of the mind is an abnormality in the brain's function due to some kind of brain damage or natural occurrence. Changing the brain's structure or whatever abnormality, is impossible.

 

The Taint is akin to Compulsion. The man is not actually mad. There is nothing wrong with his brain. It is just that the Taint latches on like a leech and controls the mind. Once that control is gone, the brain operates in it's normal state.

 

It is hardly a mistake, it is clearly something intended by RJ. It is a huge plot detail, there is no way it was simply a mistake by Brandon.

 

Would it be changing the structure or restoring it to it's original state? In my mind i see it more like healing a wound (In the case of damage to the brain itself) or fixing a chemical imbalance (Which should be possible too).

 

Healing can regrow some parts, but we don't know the exact limits on how it works. (It's actually rather confusing on this point, good example, why is it impossible to regrown a limb? I mean with deep gashes muscle has to be regrown, same with shattered bones, if the limb is there it can be reattached when means some growning, but regular growning is impossible, seems off).

 

If the brian was off from birth, I can see it not being possible to fix, but if it came later, it should be healable. If it's due to those two reasons. (who really knows what causes madness, we just know some)

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To settle this confusion about Graendal, I'm going to point you all to two sources.

 

Firstly, when Semirhage is captured by Rand, and she says that Rand is hearing the voice of Lews Therin, she then goes on to say words to the effect of "Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone hearing a real voice".

 

Secondly, if you look at the BWB, you will see that in the entry from Graendal, it begins with something like "While Semirhage was a famous healer of the body, the forsaken known as Graendal was an equally famous healer of the mind".

 

Both these quotes are from memory so not 100% accurate, but I guarantee you if you look in those two places, you'll find I'm right.

Thanks, I havent read the BWB, so I missed that.

 

 

I plan on gettign the BWB for christmas along with AMOL both.

For me? You are too kind <3

 

As for the madness being a chemical imbalance, the AS dont know anything about the microscopic. How would delving reveal a chemical imbalance? Maybe its like making yourself fly, just not possible.

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As Nyn stated, it was more like compulsion than anything else. Taint caused insanity isn't insanity like any other. She was removing an outside force that was putting pressure on and causing constant harm to certain parts of the brain. On the other hand insanity caused by genetics couldn't be healed by the OP because there is nothing to heal, the brain is functioning as it should for that person, it is simply that that function is considered abnormal when compared to the rest of the human population, but that is not how the OP works, otherwise everyone healed would end up the same standard height, etc.

Edited by Torn Shadow

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To settle this confusion about Graendal, I'm going to point you all to two sources.

 

Firstly, when Semirhage is captured by Rand, and she says that Rand is hearing the voice of Lews Therin, she then goes on to say words to the effect of "Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone hearing a real voice".

 

Secondly, if you look at the BWB, you will see that in the entry from Graendal, it begins with something like "While Semirhage was a famous healer of the body, the forsaken known as Graendal was an equally famous healer of the mind".

 

Both these quotes are from memory so not 100% accurate, but I guarantee you if you look in those two places, you'll find I'm right.

Thanks, I havent read the BWB, so I missed that.

 

 

I plan on gettign the BWB for christmas along with AMOL both.

For me? You are too kind <3

 

As for the madness being a chemical imbalance, the AS dont know anything about the microscopic. How would delving reveal a chemical imbalance? Maybe its like making yourself fly, just not possible.

 

Delving?

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Would it be changing the structure or restoring it to it's original state? In my mind i see it more like healing a wound (In the case of damage to the brain itself) or fixing a chemical imbalance (Which should be possible too).

 

Healing can regrow some parts, but we don't know the exact limits on how it works. (It's actually rather confusing on this point, good example, why is it impossible to regrown a limb? I mean with deep gashes muscle has to be regrown, same with shattered bones, if the limb is there it can be reattached when means some growning, but regular growning is impossible, seems off).

 

If the brian was off from birth, I can see it not being possible to fix, but if it came later, it should be healable. If it's due to those two reasons. (who really knows what causes madness, we just know some)

 

Yeah, I am not sure how far RJ went into these matters.

 

I can see the logic behind what you are saying, and I agree, however, from a story point of view, regrowing entire limbs and such seems tacky.

 

I would say the thing with limbs and such is that Healing can only nit things back together, like super-glue, not actually create something that isn't there. So you could technically Heal a severed hand, by kinda gluing the pieces together again, not create a whole new hand.

 

With the brain injury, I agree, and should probably amend my statement. I think that damage to the brain should be able to be Healed. At least on a physical level (the brain tissue fixed up). Not sure what that would do to the mind. I think madness that cannot be Healed would be more the psychological kind, not any physical anomaly. When I said abnormality I meant something that the person is born with. Healing wouldn't be able to create new parts of the brain that would fix that, because technically it wouldn't be damaged, just different from the norm.

 

Again, not sure how far RJ went into the theory behind this, or how knowledgeable he was with medical science, but I would say that anything that isn't physical damage (including the conduit or what not that connects a person to the OP) or pressure from an outside source can't be healed. Insanity of the normal kind would be a purely psychological thing, just how someone thinks. Like if someone went insane from seeing their family killed by Trollocs. No actual damage, no Compulsion. Just not able to cope with what had happened.

 

Delving = the closest thing I could compare it to would be like a sonar/scanner type thing. A person skilled in Delving can "look into" a person (or like Egwene, the earth) and "see" what is going on.

 

Nynaeve can Delve people, she searches their body via the OP for sickness or injury. She uses it (IIRC) when she Heals Naeff. The Delving showed her the Taint madness.

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