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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Chapter 11


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Sorry - not to sound like a total goober, but you lost me there. Can you give me a link or just cut and paste the whole argument? I tried searching the past 9 pages, but I only see stuff about people commenting on the BS rendition of Mat. I may have overlooked your "reasons" as I tried to ignore all that writing mumbo jumbo and just stick to the fun stuff.

Well, I'm too lazy to do a search myself, but it was basically the fact that Seanchan seem genuinely sincere about wishing the Empress eternal life, and their aversion to even contemplate hurting a member of the Imperial Family is well exampled by Suroth's reaction to Semirhage's suggestions (she got past the sentiment, but it took some work by Semirhage, and this is a DF we're talking about). Regardless of whether they are able to conspire against the Empress (as Suroth demonstrates they are, in some circumstances), the mere fact that this attitude exists is proof positive, in my opinion, that they're never privy to any scheming to assassinate her, otherwise I don't see how they could've maintained that naivete.

 

If either Tear or Illian is attacked as well, she'll be hard pressed to find available channelers to provide gateways for an entire army.

I don't see this as that big of a problem. A single Ring could probably open a portal wide enough for an army to pass through in 30 minutes or so. I do agree that they might end up spreading their resources rather thin, but that's a problem regardless of whether Egwene brought most of the Tower's strength with her or not.

 

EDIT:

They'll pound the crap out of pretty much anything, but catch them in the rear and suddenly they don't look so good.

This is pure speculation. I see no reason why they couldn't defend themselves, especially since they'd have no problem moving in groups of 2-3 Circles.

Edited by yoniy0
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It's safe to assume any plan Tuon comes up with to attack the tower now would be different to the previous plan and incolve travelling. Presuming she still wants to capture all the AS she could send in very small groups of blood knives and sul'dam at night to kidnap them.

 

As it stands the AS are in a more or less fixed position and apparently still all sleeping in their own private quarters. Given the knowledge of the layout and customs (meal times, ajah halls, particular people's rooms) provided by the AS already captured I think that any plan to invade would be a clinical strike. A quick grab n bag if you like.

Edited by Rocky_Outcrop
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So far nothing gives me the impression that Asha'man have any special ties to Andor or any country. Not only are male channellers still pretty much outcasts and will remain that way until saidin being clean is made public to all, but also the recruiters looked for men willing to give up their countries in favor of following the Dragon Reborn. And finally there's nothing to indicate that there are more men from Andor in the BT than there are men from everywhere else. Taim has been using Gateways almost since the beginning. And he recruited all over the Westlands.

 

Flinn was in Queen's Guard for 40 years. Naeff was part of it as well (and left because of Gaebril), so it'll be interesting to see how they'll react to seeing Morgase at Merrilor. Andor being the largest country in Randland, many of the Asha'man are likely be to be Andoran. The ones we know the nationality of have usually been Andoran, Borderlanders, or Taraboners. And of course they still care about their countries.

 

Narishma stood to the side, his hair in its two dark braids set with bells. He had been a Borderlander, too, before he had become Asha'man. Too many clouded loyalties. Which would come first for Narishma? His homeland? Rand? The Aes Sedai to whom he was a Warder?

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This is pure speculation. I see no reason why they couldn't defend themselves, especially since they'd have no problem moving in groups of 2-3 Circles.

 

It depends on the size of the circles. If they're small then it's not as big an issue, but if you're talking circles of 13 then it's going to be 39 channellers only 3 of which can weave. Only 3 people can react to enemy attacks, while the rest can only give a warning. As powerful as the circles are, a sufficient number enemy channellers, would be sending too many attacks their way. The three channellers in charge would be overwhelmed. Cadsuane herself says this in the chapter in aCoS when Fain attacks Rand. One of the Aes Sedai asks her if she wants to link. Cadsuane says no because they need to be able to react fast enough.

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On the Seanchan side, they also have the 300+ Shaido Wise Ones on a leash, in addition to the few score Tower captives, damane they brought with the Corenne, and all the people they've found that can channel. I have no idea how many that adds up to, but I'm guessing well over a thousand if there are a thousand Novices that joined Egwene on her march to the border of Andor. I would almost think that Seanchan vs non-Seanchan numbers are almost equal in terms of both soldiers and channelers.

(Please correct me if I'm not thinking right here.)

 

 

If they fight each other for more than a few skirmishes, they may well wipe each other out. I believe that Mat will stop that from happening, perhaps with Perrin's help or Rand's. This might even take all three of them together to pull off.

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This is pure speculation. I see no reason why they couldn't defend themselves, especially since they'd have no problem moving in groups of 2-3 Circles.

 

It depends on the size of the circles. If they're small then it's not as big an issue, but if you're talking circles of 13 then it's going to be 39 channellers only 3 of which can weave. Only 3 people can react to enemy attacks, while the rest can only give a warning. As powerful as the circles are, a sufficient number enemy channellers, would be sending too many attacks their way. The three channellers in charge would be overwhelmed. Cadsuane herself says this in the chapter in aCoS when Fain attacks Rand. One of the Aes Sedai asks her if she wants to link. Cadsuane says no because they need to be able to react fast enough.

Nice catch

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You don't need them to be effective in battle. You need them to know how to Link (which many do, now, and without a doubt they've been passing the knowledge along even if the sisters don't know about it). Hell, of a 1500 force, only 116 need to know how to put on their shoes on the right foot (and there are that many Greens, who could be made to be very effective with some training). They should be able to handle 7-10 times that number of damane (just as the Windfinders had no problem dealing with the Blacks who took Elayne).

 

Also, having most of the Tower in the FoM might actually be an advantage. Those who stay behind only need to flee and alert Egwene. She'd then have the perfect staging ground to organize the party that will wipe the Seanchan army from the face of Randland (not to mention, the benefit of having Asha'man laying around, presumably willing to help against the invaders).

 

By the way, what I said earlier wasn't that AS were the fastest on their feet in a battle, but that they can weave the fastest. A distinct advantage, if what you need to do is simply untie every a'dam around.

 

I'll respond to this in the context of Terez's statement below.

 

+ over a thousand novices, many of whom were trained, and all of whom can be used in circles. But I'm guessing most of them will be at Merrilor.

Not trying to be over critical, but why do you think the novices are at the FoM?

 

I don't; I was talking about the Aes Sedai. Sorry for not being clear; this was just in response to the earlier comments about whether many Aes Sedai would even be in the Tower. Since Egwene is trying to impress with numbers, I think she'll probably bring most of the Aes Sedai with her.

 

That is my assessment as well, which makes the linking-defense much more problematic. If the novices are all ... novicing about at the Tower, and Egwene has a significant chunk of her trained Aes Sedai with her at the FoM to impress everyone into doing what she wants, and the Seanchan (and maybe the Shadow?) attack Tar Valon while they're gone ... there won't be enough Aes Sedai around to effectively guide the multitudes of novices, and the Seanchan will have an a'dam clasping field day. When Egwene leads her counter attack, she won't have all those novices to link with. They'll all be kenneled with a'dam on their necks, or worse, taken away through gateways to Ebou Dar for training.

 

Also ... maybe I just missed this, but how/when do we find out that Aes Sedai on average weave faster than everyone else?

 

Edit to add: All this leads me to foresee a successful initial Seanchan strike, followed by some kind of accommodation in the face of the coming Last Battle. Egwene has had a great deal of success in the last two books - I think some serious setbacks are in the future for her and the White Tower.

Edited by Neophyte
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In book 8 we see Aviendha and the Sea folk throwing fireballs faster than the Aes Sedia because they don't make the physical throwing motion when the shoot fire.

 

If we're discussing stopping the Seanchan, I'd say you need some powerful channelers who can hit their ships well before they get to land.

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I'm still thinking Egwene is going to collar Tuon, since she has a dream about Egeanin handing her an a'dam.

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I'm still thinking Egwene is going to collar Tuon, since she has a dream about Egeanin handing her an a'dam.

 

You mean this...

 

A hard-faced Seanchan woman handed her a silvery bracelet and necklace connected by a silvery leash, an a'dam.

 

... and I don't think the hard-faced Seanchan woman is Egeanin, I think it's Fortuona herself, and note the gifting of both the bracelet and the necklace. I think this represents the new order that will form, where Seanchan women--both sul'dam and damane, bracelet and necklace--go to the Tower for training before returning to the Empire to 'serve all'.

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I'm still thinking Egwene is going to collar Tuon, since she has a dream about Egeanin handing her an a'dam.

 

You mean this...

 

A hard-faced Seanchan woman handed her a silvery bracelet and necklace connected by a silvery leash, an a'dam.

 

... and I don't think the hard-faced Seanchan woman is Egeanin, I think it's Fortuona herself, and note the gifting of both the bracelet and the necklace. I think this represents the new order that will form, where Seanchan women--both sul'dam and damane, bracelet and necklace--go to the Tower for training before returning to the Empire to 'serve all'.

 

Or it could be Fortuona returning all the novices/Aes Sedai that she collared in her assault on Tar Valon as a part of the accommodation that puts everyone together for the Last Battle ...

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Still, it is difficult for me to conceive of a scenario where Mat rides to Ebou Dar without going to Merrilor or Caemlyn or Tar Valon first. He can't get there w/out Traveling, riding would take too long, and he has Pips.

 

It is also difficult for me to imagine a scenario where Mat, with access to channelers via Rand, Egwene, Perrin, or Rand, with Caemlyn under siege and the Band in battle, is sent, alone, to Ebou Dar. I'd think those situations must be resolved first. If not, the Light had decided to use it's best general as a messenger. If what Mat is doing is so important at this late stage, why go by himself? And if it is not important, why does he go?

 

Mat may have gone to Merrilor first he just may not have gotten a POV there. As for Caemlyn, according to the preview it may very well be that Caemlyn has already fallen completely in the prologue because it speaks of Caemlyn in trolloc hands as a fact and not as if it was in doubt.

 

 

What? I didn't see anything in the Prologue to indicate Caemlyn had fallen. Heck, Jarid's men all are talking about (not) attacking Elayne. They have no idea what is going on. And even in chapter 1's excerpt, it only speaks of Caemlyn Burning, and we already knew that from Talamanes' POV in ToM's epilogue. In fact, the Chapter 1 excerpt makes it seem that the wind is blowing that very night, as it talks of "danger coming to Caemlyn in the night" or some such.

 

And while Luckers' idea of a reasonable division of labor seems OK at first: Perrin and Elayne to Caemlyn, the Armies to Lan, and the best general you have to Ebou Dar by himself it doesn't really pass muster to me. What if Tuon just ignores what he says and makes him da'covale or something? Plus, how is he going to get back? She already beat Rand's taveren-ness once. It just doesn't seem very bright to me. Obviously, I'll withhold judgement, but it seems to me to make more sense if:

 

1) The battle for Caemlyn is already resolved (one way or another)

2) Mat has more help with him, or more on the way

 

EDIT: And I found the interaction with Jame to be strikingly bad. As others have said. Taveren-ness is the only viable explanation for a Seanchan do be so direct to a stranger. Heck, Matt could be a Seeker for all he knows.

Edited by TheAngryDruid
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The jacket cover blurb is what suggested that Caemlyn had fallen; I believed it said the Shadowspawn had 'seized' it, whatever that means.

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Tuon's not hard-faced; she's doll-faced. Egeanin is the hard-faced Seanchan woman...

 

Actually, whilst Tuon, when she's not paying attention, often does look doll like, she frequently assumes a mask that is described in a way that more than fulfils a hard-faced woman in both the severity it expresses and the physicality of the description.

 

Tuon's face was as smooth as a stern mask of dark glass

 

A stern mask of dark glass--I can't think of a face harder.

 

Tuon's face was a dark mask

 

Again, the mask.

 

"That is very kind of you," she said. "It's good to know you are kind to damans. But you must be careful. There are men who actually take damane to their beds." Her full mouth twisted in disgust. "You would not want anyone to think you are per verted." That severe expression settled on her face again. All prisoners would be executed immediately.

 

Again, the severity.

 

yet Tuon's stern expression made Latelle nearly look mild

 

And again.

 

he spun on his heel and found himself facing Tuon, her dark face stern behind her long transparent veil.

 

And again.

 

 

All in all, I'm more than content that she satisfies the requirements to be described by Egwene as 'hard-faced', especially in the circumstances that would be in play.

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I know some posters listen to the audio books and others just have the real world habit, but can people stop writing Mat's name with two t's. It bugs me as much as Brandon's hillbilly version of Mat.

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All in all, I'm more than content that she satisfies the requirements to be described by Egwene as 'hard-faced', especially in the circumstances that would be in play.

 

Care to make a wager? :myrddraal:

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All in all, I'm more than content that she satisfies the requirements to be described by Egwene as 'hard-faced', especially in the circumstances that would be in play.

 

Care to make a wager? :myrddraal:

This could be interesting ....

:mat:

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I'm interested in seeing how Rand, nynaeve and Egwene took the news of Mat's marriage and I'm also interested in seeing how he convinced them to let him go alone.

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I'm interested in seeing how Rand, nynaeve and Egwene took the news of Mat's marriage and I'm also interested in seeing how he convinced them to let him go alone.

 

He only needs to convince Rand and that could have been as easy as "Trust me".

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Hey, just a thought but given his desire to not be recognised and then his 'unreasonable' anger at tuon being threatened by Galgan, is there any way he could know that Galgan is a DF? Possibly Demandred? Attacking the WT seems something way too much in the shadows favour, quite the move to get the AS with their pants down, just as the final attacks are on.

Well, as mentioned before, Galgan cannot be Demandred on both meta-data (we know Demandred's alter ego -- if he has one -- wasn't seen on stage in KoD, which Galgan has) and the fact that Semirhage was already operating in Ebou Dar (no need for Demandred to be there as well). As for the attack on the WT, that seems like the most logical step from the Seanchan perspective as well, assuming you don't trust marath'damane to fight on the Light's side in TG. Of course, I'd be both appalled and very surprised if an attack now would catch the WT off guard -- Egwene would have to be a fool not to prepare for it, knowing that the Seanchan have Traveling, and witnessing her AS's performance the last time around.

 

I don't doubt she's prepared for such an eventuality, but depending on the forces she took to the FoM, she's probably weakened it's defences. And now that they have traveling I would be suprised if the Seanchan didn't do a little scouting before attacking. A little scouting would reveal that weakened defence.

 

Thanks for the reminder about Galgan not being Demandred :smile:

 

Though it doesn't excuse him from being a DF.

 

I have no problem with demandred stepping in to direct the Seachen post-semirhage in fact I consider the desires of the seanchen to dominate the westlands to be the culmination of a general 'DF' plot.

 

I'm not to fussed about the debate over Egwene's or the AS's ability to hold of the Seanchan; i have faith(!) that the AS could adapt enough to defend themselves ( the state of the AS themselves again seems the result of continued DF plots- just think how long it took for the AM to be corrupted).

 

but that's not really for this thread; I do wonder what could set Mat against galgan so determinitly as if he had knowledge about him when I don't remember him even being aware of the man's existance.

 

What conversation could reveal some thing about Galgan to set Mat against him? Any hoo all speculation of course :laugh:

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All in all, I'm more than content that she satisfies the requirements to be described by Egwene as 'hard-faced', especially in the circumstances that would be in play.

 

Care to make a wager? :myrddraal:

This could be interesting ....

:mat:

 

Luckers never accepts my wagers. Because for him, it's not about whether he's actually right but whether he can position his argument as being equally valid to mine. :wink:

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After re-reading the chapter I want to amend some of the things I said previously.

 

Camelyn, I think, is unknown to Mat at this point.

 

I believe when the person making the gateway meets with Mat, they inform him of the meeting with Rand and takes them straight to there.

When the three regroup, Mat/Rand/Perrin, the color issue is resolved. Rand tells Mat to go talk to his wife. Mat tells him she wont listen, but Rand "only hears what he wants to hear"(or something similar to that) and sends Mat anyway.

In chapter 11, Mat explains why he is sneaking in, to get a feel. When he finds out someone has been sending assassins, all pretext is over. He puts on his hat, knowing he wil be identified, but he doesnt care. He is Prince of the Ravens, and even more he is Matrim Cauthin. He will not be stopped.

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I hope someone reviews this chapter before the final version is sent for publication. Mat is trying to enter Ebou Dar undetected but is riding Pips and under the alias of Mandevwin, both clues the Seanchan can link to him (if Musenge and the other DWG talked about the battle the Prince of the Ravens fought to save the Empress). But I guess the Seanchan haven't distributed a comprehensive profile of their list of "Most Wanted" people to all the gates.

 

From the two excerpts available so far, it is looking like AMoL will be a good exercise in patient reading. Mat is still off, Ebou Dar and the Rahad seem to be off; and the Seanchan seem to be off as well.

 

This is the first time in the whole series that someone discovers and counts Mat's (or Thom's) hidden knives. That just felt strange. And then Mat, upon discovering that the danger is greater than he originally thought and that he is wanted, puts on his hat and leaves off the bandage and walks out the door. Maybe his plan is to be arrested and taken to the Tarasin palace?!

 

On a lighter note, it is likely that Mat is "wanted" to be delivered to the Empress in person; and that he misunderstood the assassins dialogue between Galgan and Tuon to spur him to go to her directly. In the Palace, he'll be announced as PotR; and Galgan will be impressed by Mat's military expertise and remain under Mat's command.

Edited by Theodril
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The White Tower's numbers overall have grown, because of the influx of novices to the former rebels, but the number of fully trained Aes Sedai is down significantly, due to the fracturing of the Tower and the final defection of the Black Ajah. I'd be surprised if Egwene could muster 400 trained Aes Sedai in Tar Valon right now.

Likely much more. Remember the Aes Sedai who sat out of the rebellion? They'll have news of Egwene's rise by now, and would have flocked back to the reunited Tower, to learn Traveling and the other weaves, if nothing else.

 

Plus, we see hints that Egwene has been busy raising powerful Novices to Aes Sedai on a fast track. Nicola and the other Novices who helped her in the Seanchan attack were already Accepted, and its more than likely that older Novices with sufficient OP strength were even more quickly raised. And recruitment is also likely to have continued in the past month, and with Traveling, who knows what numbers have been achieved?

Yes, the novices could be used as Power-boosters in circles in the event of an attack - though if that kind of coordination just falls into place I'll have to sigh under my breath

It won't "just" fall into place. The Rebels had set up a similar system, as we saw in LoC. No reason for that not to have been reinstated against a future Seanchan attack.

- but the sul'dam are ruthlessly efficient trainers when it comes to turning their charges into weapons for the Empire. Of the max 400 (and probably fewer) Aes Sedai that Egwene could muster right now, how many of them have a great deal of experience in battle?

Do they need experince in battle with Novices in links, and likely angreal and sa'angreal? They can shield many many damane in one go, and are basically un-shieldable by the Damane. They can make larger Gateways. They can make immensely powerful weaves. And they won't be unprepared...

In most situations, an Aes Sedai can intimidate with a ring and a frown. But even the Battle Ajah's Captain-General didn't acquit herself that impressively during the raid (admittedly, she'd just lost a Warder, but that is going to happen in battle ...)

She had also been deep asleep and left with about 20 of her sisters to fight with. Not to mention that she was completely caught by surprise.

The Seanchan raid captured 40 women, about 24 of whom were full Aes Sedai. They would have gotten more if their escape method wasn't via to'raken - a particularly vulnerable escape platform to Egwene's fount o' power counterattack. They will not be depending on such mundane transport now.

And the Aes Sedai won't stand around to be captured. They know the ground whereas the damane don't, so they'll be able to Travel more quickly. More than likely, they'd have established points to meet up, link, then Travel back and push back the invaders.

Unless something changes, I would expect the upcoming Seanchan assault to match Fortuona's (somewhat melodromatic) assessment: The White Tower is doomed. (So obviously, something will change - I expect that Mat will somehow be involved in saving Egwene's bacon once more.)

Several things have changed, actually:

 

1)Aes Sedai know of the Seanchan and are aware they have Traveling.

2)Aes Sedai themselves can Travel.

3)Aes Sedai know how to unlock any a'dam they see.

 

And several things that were true before are likely to come into play now, like Aes Sedai ability with wards, linking, their ability to disguise their channeling. Their huge cache of angreal and sa'angreal (which are warded, so not easy to reach for the Seanchan)...

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