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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

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2. He tries to convince her to come with him.

 

Tylin? I don't recall that for some reason...

He does ask her. When she comes back a couple of days early and he's surprised. She says she won't leave her country in somebody else's hands, i'll miss you, tie me up.

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Yes, it's stupid, but it's also very natural. Reading post after post with bad spelling or unusual abbreviations is just jarring, particularly when you consider that everyone posting here can very easily google a name to make sure they've got the spelling right. We even politely ask that everyone makes a reasonable effort to insure their posts are legible in the site terms-of-use. Still, we've yet to ban someone for calling Matrim Matt....

 

Anyhow, from time to time, it's not at all surprising that someone would comment on the incorrect spelling.

 

'ensure' lol

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Yes, it's stupid, but it's also very natural. Reading post after post with bad spelling or unusual abbreviations is just jarring, particularly when you consider that everyone posting here can very easily google a name to make sure they've got the spelling right. We even politely ask that everyone makes a reasonable effort to insure their posts are legible in the site terms-of-use. Still, we've yet to ban someone for calling Matrim Matt....

 

Anyhow, from time to time, it's not at all surprising that someone would comment on the incorrect spelling.

 

'ensure' lol

 

I wondered who might do that haha.

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Mat thinks that a city without fighting would be boring when usually he does everything in his power to avoid fights? Hmm...

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'ensure' lol

Ouch, you got me :wink:

Yeah, as a non-Anglophone, I have no problem relating. It's most difficult with typos that a spell-check doesn't flag, although I do think I make a reasonable effort. Either way, feel free to correct me or anyone else (as long as you're not picking on them).

Edited by yoniy0

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'ensure' lol

Ouch, you got me :wink:

Yeah, as a non-Anglophone, I have no problem relating. It's most difficult with typos that a spell-check doesn't flag, although I do think I make a reasonable effort. Either way, feel free to correct me or anyone else (as long as you're not picking on them).

 

Psst ... just tell them you were taking out a policy on the legibility everyone's posts! :wink:

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i finished the chapter and this thread and i ahve to say that this thread was longer.

 

personality-wise, i think BS finally found mat. in terms of the actual writing, mat still has a bad case of [internal] verbal diarrhea. RJ never showed all the steps in Mat's throught process, even his POV in earlier books is more out of his head. BS is showing every last thought that crosses Mat's mind. We are not used to it and that's why Mat seems off, not his personality.

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to me, with the exception of the verbal diarrhea, this has been the most like the Mat RJ wrote. there was too much internal monologue, but when only paying attention to what he said/did to/in front of other people it was vintage Mat (minus the fake backstory crap)

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I'm certainly not reading every off-topic page of this thread, but has anyone suggested that the assassination attempts might be PURPOSEFUL to point out that Fortuona lacks the traditional brainwashing protection of the Crystal Throne?

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I'm certainly not reading every off-topic page of this thread, but has anyone suggested that the assassination attempts might be PURPOSEFUL to point out that Fortuona lacks the traditional brainwashing protection of the Crystal Throne?

Yes, and I believe the point was more about the nonchalant way in which commoners refer to the fact more than its actually happening. The fact that no one is scandalized is in itself scandalous.

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I'm certainly not reading every off-topic page of this thread, but has anyone suggested that the assassination attempts might be PURPOSEFUL to point out that Fortuona lacks the traditional brainwashing protection of the Crystal Throne?

Yes, and I believe the point was more about the nonchalant way in which commoners refer to the fact more than its actually happening. The fact that no one is scandalized is in itself scandalous.

 

It is only scandalous if the assassins are meant to succeed, which they clearly aren't. Galgan is just sending a political message, Seanchan High Blood style. I'm sure Fortuona knows exactly what's going on, and may even admire his style, even if the message he is sending might annoy her politically.

 

(Unless you're saying that sending assassins deliberately to their death as a way of sending a political message is scandalous. In that case, I would agree that the blatant disregard for human life is scandalous, while at the same time admitting that I have difficulty feeling sympathy for paid assassins ...)

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It is only scandalous if the assassins are meant to succeed, which they clearly aren't. Galgan is just sending a political message, Seanchan High Blood style. I'm sure Fortuona knows exactly what's going on, and may even admire his style, even if the message he is sending might annoy her politically.

I don't think so, but why repeat what I've already said when I can simply quote it? :smile:

You know, it occurs to me that I absolutely trust Fain in his assessment of Turak, that he honestly wished immortality on the Empress. How that attitude might exists in a society where it's common knowledge that generals fiddle with assassinating her (and not scandalous by any means), I have no clue.

The Crystal Throne, that's how. It's a ter'angreal that inspires reverence and wonder for the one who's sitting on it and Turak was high enough in the list of succession that he probably spend quite some time at court. Enough time for him to fall completely under its sway and really come to believe the Seanchan indoctrination at heart.

That's not it. Examine Suroth's aversion to assassinating Tuon (who never sat the Crystal Throne) when first confronted with the idea. Yes, she got over it, but to first think of it felt like sacrilege (and she's a DF). This attitude simply cannot live in a place where people ever consider such things.

Turak and Suroth, but not Galgan (or Jame, for that matter, if you're talking about indoctrination)?

Why does no one else accept that Tuon expects assassins so using ones that will fail is a way of almost complimenting her? Or something like that. I don't get what has caused the friction here about that.

Because some of us feel like the person of the Empress is sacred in Seanchan society, and sending assassins after her is nothing short of unthinkable. The high blood, sure. Within the Imperial family even, we know that it does happen. But the Empress herself, may she live forever? No.

Edited by yoniy0
Removed some irrelevant stuff

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I agree with Yoni that the entire way word of the assasins is framed in the story jarrs against everything we've seen of Seanchan culture, and the idea that Galgan sent them to fail, as a safeguard against that, feels contrived and over-wrought--and still doesn't answer joe-random Seanchan understanding the gradations that would permit the thought to exist. You could take it further, I suppose, and suggest Jame is a seeker, or something, but it's all just getting too convuluted.

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Bethamin the sul'dam genuinely thought there would be great joy and celebration when Tuon revealed herself. She feels a guilty pleasure at even thinking Tuon's name to herself.

 

The Seeker Mor doesn't even like to think of Tuon's disappearance, or speak of it aloud, and rather says 'the night after Tylin was found murdered' to indicate which day he meant. And Karede thinks it apt as it was the 'least unpleasant event' of that evening. He found the decapitated corpse of the Queen of Altara easier to stomach than the thought of one of the Imperial Family missing.

 

The Seanchan, from top to bottom, revere the Empress's family as near god-like and untouchable. For Galgan to move even in a way that would obviously fail before he was added to the Imperial family, or to have someone of the lower-caste speak of such things so candidly is basically unthinkable based on previous Seanchan-related chapters.

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It is only scandalous if the assassins are meant to succeed, which they clearly aren't. Galgan is just sending a political message, Seanchan High Blood style. I'm sure Fortuona knows exactly what's going on, and may even admire his style, even if the message he is sending might annoy her politically.

I don't think so, but why repeat what I've already said when I can simply quote it? :smile:

You know, it occurs to me that I absolutely trust Fain in his assessment of Turak, that he honestly wished immortality on the Empress. How that attitude might exists in a society where it's common knowledge that generals fiddle with assassinating her (and not scandalous by any means), I have no clue.

The Crystal Throne, that's how. It's a ter'angreal that inspires reverence and wonder for the one who's sitting on it and Turak was high enough in the list of succession that he probably spend quite some time at court. Enough time for him to fall completely under its sway and really come to believe the Seanchan indoctrination at heart.

That's not it. Examine Suroth's aversion to assassinating Tuon (who never sat the Crystal Throne) when first confronted with the idea. Yes, she got over it, but to first think of it felt like sacrilege (and she's a DF). This attitude simply cannot live in a place where people ever consider such things.

Turak and Suroth, but not Galgan (or Jame, for that matter, if you're talking about indoctrination)?

Why does no one else accept that Tuon expects assassins so using ones that will fail is a way of almost complimenting her? Or something like that. I don't get what has caused the friction here about that.

Because some of us feel like the person of the Empress is sacred in Seanchan society, and sending assassins after her is nothing short of unthinkable. The high blood, sure. Within the Imperial family even, we know that it does happen. But the Empress herself, may she live forever? No.

 

I get all that, yoniy0, but Fortuona expects the High Blood to at least consider killing her. From Fortuona's PoV, ToM ch 47:

 

So far as she knew, since his raising, Beslan hadn't made any plans to have her assassinated. Remarkable. Any Seanchan would have immediately begun scheming. Some would have tried an assassination; others would have decided to make only plans, but remain supportive. But all would have considered killing her.

Many on this side of the ocean thought differently. She'd never have believed it , if not for her time with Matrim. That was obviously one reason why Fortuona had been required to go with him. She just wished she'd interpreted the omens earlier.

 

So, apparently Fortuona, even when she is Empress, doesn't expect the High Blood to "revere [her] as near god-like and untouchable," if I may include Sid's comments in my response. According to Fortuona, "all would have considered killing her."

 

To underscore how rare such loyalty is at the highest levels of Seanchan government, here are her thoughts on loyalty, as it relates to Galgan and Mat, later in the same chapter:

 

 

Galgan clasped his hands behind his back. He was a curious one. He'd met with assassins in the city, and had inquired about the cost for having Fortuona killed. Then, he'd had each of the men who quoted him a price executed. A very subtle maneuver—it was meant to show that she should consider him a threat, as he was not afraid of meeting with assassins. However,

it was also a visible sign of loyalty. I follow you for now, the move said, but I am watching, and I am ambitious.

In many ways, his careful maneuvering was more comforting to her than Beslan's apparently unwavering loyalty. The first, she could anticipate. The second . . . well, she wasn't certain what to make of it yet. Would Matrim be equally loyal? What would it be like, to have a Prince of the Ravens whom she did not have to plot against? It seemed almost a fantasy, the type of tale told to common children to make them dream of an impossible marriage.

 

Fortuona interprets Galgan's initial move as a political message "that she should consider him a threat." That doesn't sound like honestly wishing immortality on her. Turak may have been an exception, or Fain's assessment might have been off. Turak surely would have shown all the outward signs of loyalty, and there was no one around who outranked him for him to maneuver against. Suroth doesn't like the idea, but I personally think that is just because she was a coward at heart, not out of awe for Tuon who wasn't even the Empress yet at the time.

 

At any rate, by Fortuona's own assessment, the High Blood around her may be expected to plot against her. She finds Beslan and Mat odd in their apparently heartfelt loyalty.

Edited by Neophyte

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That assessment is what's under question Neophyte, because it--in any of its depictions under Brandon from Jame to Galgan to Fortuona herself--are at odds with Jordan's portrayal of Seanchan culture.

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That passage always bothered me too, since it's in direct opposition of what Turak said in TGH to Fain, whom he wanted to properly educate in preparation of making a gift of him to the real Empress back then.

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But, Neo, you are quoting a Tuon POV from a *Sanderson* WOT Novel (TOM). I think one of the main sentiments being expressed here is how jarring the abrubt shift in the narrative's attitude towards the Seanchan has been in Sanderson's books where the air of intimidated awe that used to permeate has suddenly become quite lax and casual.

 

Edit. I just cross-posted with Luckers and Sid but my point remains the same.

 

 

Fish

Edited by The Fisher King

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@ Fish - Yeah, well, the bit about Galgan sending assassins is from chapter 11 of a Sanderson WOT novel (AMoL) too.

 

Honestly - are we just going to not count Sanderson as canon now? Why are we even bothering to talk about this chapter then?

 

@Sid - Fain never got to see Turak when there was someone around for him to plot against, and we never got Turak's internal PoV to really know how sincere his awe for the Empress was. Then again, maybe she made him stand in front of the Crystal Throne for six months before he left to ensure his loyalty.

 

@Luckers - I don't think what Sanderson has done here is necessarily contradictory to what we've seen before. When Tuon comes to take command of the Corenne, she fully expects opposition from among the Blood who are there. Her PoV's make it consistently clear (even before Sanderson took over) that games of intrigue and assassination do go all the way up to the Imperial family. "On the heights, all paths are paved with daggers," is an old Seanchan saying that RJ wrote well before he died.

 

@ everyone - Fain's assessment of Turak is unreliable because 1) Fain's kind of nuts and 2) Turak was never really being honest with Fain - he suspected him from the beginning. Fain pretended to be completely loyal to the Seanchan. It is not outside the realm of reason to consider that Turak might have been doing a bit of acting himself. As for Suroth, she was so out of her depth that again, I'm not sure she's a reliable source. Fortuona is coherent, and consistent in her thought that others of the High Blood may be a threat - and that is consistent with the rest of the Seanchan culture. The regular people no doubt hold the Empress in actual awe - Bethamin's feelings about Tuon seem quite genuine. But the High Blood are in the same "league" with the Imperial family, for lack of a better word. They live on those dagger-paved heights too, and can plot to move higher.

Edited by Neophyte

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The issue isn't specific to Brandon's writing, it's a problem when the author is unreliable for any reason. We simply have no way of knowing if Tuon's thoughts are an author misstep or not, so it's nearly impossible to analyze this part of the story.

 

Having said that, I can think of a couple possible in-world explanations for her attitude. Perhaps Seanchan culture is becoming diluted with continued exposure to Ebou Dar. Or perhaps the sanctity of the empress develops over time. Since Tuon is new--and has no heirs--she expects to be tested a bit.

 

-- dwn

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