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Planned Seanchan Attack on the White Tower...


Morden
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Thanks for that Luckers, most informative - and not at all what I expected! I'd rather thought that RJ had had a tighter hold on things.. but then, he was short of time. Though I dare say that the really major plot elements, such as how/if the Bore gets sealed, if/how Rand dies, and so on, weren't up for debate!

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I dunno--I would have called Perrin taking up the Way of the Leaf a pretty major plot element, and apparently it was up for debate.

 

But yes, we know the climax of the series, at the very least, was noted by RJ.

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I dunno--I would have called Perrin taking up the Way of the Leaf a pretty major plot element, and apparently it was up for debate.

I'm sorry, but that is just utterly unnerving.

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I dunno--I would have called Perrin taking up the Way of the Leaf a pretty major plot element, and apparently it was up for debate.

 

But yes, we know the climax of the series, at the very least, was noted by RJ.

not necessarily. assuming he does not die, that could be referring to after TG or in the epilogue as a side note
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I am not surprised that RJ had alternate ideas for major plot lines. That happens with a lot of authors. Thank you for letting us know Perrin could have gone the way of the leaf. It seems to me that is an integral part of his personality - it's good to get some confirmation.

 

Thank you, Luckers.

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I dunno--I would have called Perrin taking up the Way of the Leaf a pretty major plot element, and apparently it was up for debate.

 

But yes, we know the climax of the series, at the very least, was noted by RJ.

not necessarily. assuming he does not die, that could be referring to after TG or in the epilogue as a side note

 

Yeah, that's true.

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I am not surprised that RJ had alternate ideas for major plot lines. That happens with a lot of authors. Thank you for letting us know Perrin could have gone the way of the leaf. It seems to me that is an integral part of his personality - it's good to get some confirmation.

 

Thank you, Luckers.

 

Perhaps Perrin does exactly that! OK, it was up for debate, but we don't know how that debate ended...... :hopper::perrin:

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Well seeing as you shared that paragraph publicly I feel it is ok to comment on it now.

 

I've considered making the whole thing public, but I'm not sure whether it would help or hinder.

 

Hinder, I would imagine. Luckers, you and Sutts and some others on Dragonmount are "WoT connoisseurs," if you will. However there are many readers here who don't necessarily analyse Brandon's work as closely...and enjoy it equally with RJ's. Legitimate though many of your criticisms may be, pointing them out can cause readers who normally would have loved and enjoyed both tGS and ToM to become a bit cynical. To some readers, ignorance is bliss.

 

Personally, I would rather not analyse Brandon's work too closely, as I ultimately want to get as much enjoyment out of the series as possible. Brandon is a great author, but I never expected his writing to be the same as RJ's, so I chose to just accept and love it despite its faults and differences. (Otherwise, his characterization of Mat would have ruined the series for me). I am hoping that some of the bigger issues are fixed for AMoL, but I will chose to love it nonetheless, mainly because there's nothing I can do to change it.

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Well seeing as you shared that paragraph publicly I feel it is ok to comment on it now.

 

I've considered making the whole thing public, but I'm not sure whether it would help or hinder.

 

I think there will be a very valid time to do that after AMoL has been released. Given the timing of some things we have discussed maybe now might not be the most prudent moment. I will again say it is an impressive piece of work. You have my admiration for both working so hard and for risking rocking the boat in order to make this series the best it can possibly be. I have a feeling when all is said and done post AMoL, that piece will be a very interesting thing to keep in mind when analzyzing BS's final legacy in his handling of the WoT.

Edited by Suttree
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I am not surprised that RJ had alternate ideas for major plot lines. That happens with a lot of authors. Thank you for letting us know Perrin could have gone the way of the leaf. It seems to me that is an integral part of his personality - it's good to get some confirmation.

 

Thank you, Luckers.

 

Perhaps Perrin does exactly that! OK, it was up for debate, but we don't know how that debate ended...... :hopper::perrin:

 

Lol, we do. Harriet said no.

 

Well seeing as you shared that paragraph publicly I feel it is ok to comment on it now.

 

I've considered making the whole thing public, but I'm not sure whether it would help or hinder.

 

Hinder, I would imagine. Luckers, you and Sutts and some others on Dragonmount are "WoT connoisseurs," if you will. However there are many readers here who don't necessarily analyse Brandon's work as closely...and enjoy it equally with RJ's. Legitimate though many of your criticisms may be, pointing them out can cause readers who normally would have loved and enjoyed both tGS and ToM to become a bit cynical. To some readers, ignorance is bliss.

 

Personally, I would rather not analyse Brandon's work too closely, as I ultimately want to get as much enjoyment out of the series as possible. Brandon is a great author, but I never expected his writing to be the same as RJ's, so I chose to just accept and love it despite its faults and differences. (Otherwise, his characterization of Mat would have ruined the series for me). I am hoping that some of the bigger issues are fixed for AMoL, but I will chose to love it nonetheless, mainly because there's nothing I can do to change it.

 

I... perhaps even envy that perspective. And I agree.

 

Well seeing as you shared that paragraph publicly I feel it is ok to comment on it now.

 

I've considered making the whole thing public, but I'm not sure whether it would help or hinder.

 

I think there will be a very valid time to do that after AMoL has been released. Given the timing of some things we have discussed maybe now might not be the most prudent moment. I will again say it is an impressive piece of work. You have my admiration for both working so hard and for risking rocking the boat in order to make this series the best it can possibly be. I have a feeling when all is said and done post AMoL, that piece will be a very interesting thing to keep in mind when analzyzing BS's final legacy in his handling of the WoT.

 

Yes, I'm working on something called the Unseen World, for after aMoL, and you're correct. This belongs there.

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I do love the books and think they're a huge undertaking for an author. That said, the fact that it took so long to finish the series (I never thought it would be such a long series) I stopped rereading years ago. I've gotten seriously into works of fiction though, LOTR being the first one. So, I understand how you can be disappointed with the direction BS may have taken a plotline. As much as I thought that the LOTR movies were amazing visually, there were many things I just couldn't stand about the movie version.

However, BS was chose by RJ and without him there would have been no end to the story. I'm rereading the books now - on book 7.

So, when I'm done with the series to date, I'll be able to better comment on BS's take and continuation of the storyline. But, I think Roocifer is correct in his outlook.

And, in a bit of defense for BS - it's not his story or his characters. It must be difficult to continue how you'd think RJ might want. After reading a bit here, we see that RJ didn't know where all the plot lines were going.

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However, BS was chose by RJ and without him there would have been no end to the story. .

 

Just to clarify, BS was chosen by Harriet after RJ's passing. He played no role in the decision.

 

Edit: have a few more comments a bit later when I get time.

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And who knows, maybe Brandon was right, this time around. Maybe he had fixed his own problems and Harriets demands for more time truly weren't necessary

Necessary or not, I don't believe it was used. Quite frankly, it was disheartening to watch the video recording of that convention (you know the one, where your liking of Cads was mentioned) and hearing Harriet speaking about the delay.

 

It was painfully obvious that if she had any concerns about the time-frame, those focused on not pushing Brandon, Maria, Alan and herself too hard rather than on actually managing to do a better job, and either way those concerns took a backseat to the question of timing. The November date Tor had in mind was too late for AMoL to enjoy the Holidays sales period in the way she believed it deserves (she actually mentions worrying that many stores might not get around to putting it on the shelves in time if it was released after 11/20).

 

From there, realizing that Brandon only handed-in the first draft after Christmas (it was due on 11/8, before he left for the Alloy tour), and that the entire process was done by July, leaves me with almost no doubts as to the superiority of their process this time around, as opposed to what they did with TGS and AMoL. In a nutshell, my greatest fear, confirmed.

 

EDIT: wait, what argument between Terez and Peter? Twitter-search fails me again.

Edited by yoniy0
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From there, realizing that Brandon only handed-in the first draft after Christmas (it was due on 11/8, before he left for the Alloy tour), and that the entire process was done by July, leaves me with almost no doubts as to the superiority of their process this time around, as opposed to what they did with TGS and AMoL. In a nutshell, my greatest fear, confirmed.

 

EDIT: wait, what argument between Terez and Peter? Twitter-search fails me again.

 

Hey yoniy0, could you clarify where you were going with that? Think I know but want to be sure before responding.

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I meant to say, it seems the extra time was used to let Brandon keep a saner schedule, and to produce the book with comfort, but not actually for a lengthier editing process (I've heard talk of 7 drafts from Brandon this time around, but the last two weren't very serious by his accounts, and I'm also deeply troubled by his announcement of conclusion before any beta-readers have seen this book). I meant to say "TGS and ToM", sorry about that.

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Didn't RJ do over a dozen drafts for each WoT book before he was satisfied?

 

Usually between 8 and 12. 8, certainly, before he even showed Harriet.

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I meant to say, it seems the extra time was used to let Brandon keep a saner schedule, and to produce the book with comfort, but not actually for a lengthier editing process (I've heard talk of 7 drafts from Brandon this time around, but the last two weren't very serious by his accounts, and I'm also deeply troubled by his announcement of conclusion before any beta-readers have seen this book). I meant to say "TGS and ToM", sorry about that.

I'm hoping for a great book, in terms of literature. Brandon has certainly grown as a writer through out this process, and i think he can pull it off.

But in all reality, and I expect others might feel the same, all I care about at this point is "I'd like to see the ending, please". I'd take the cliff notes version at this point...

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I meant to say, it seems the extra time was used to let Brandon keep a saner schedule, and to produce the book with comfort, but not actually for a lengthier editing process (I've heard talk of 7 drafts from Brandon this time around, but the last two weren't very serious by his accounts, and I'm also deeply troubled by his announcement of conclusion before any beta-readers have seen this book). I meant to say "TGS and ToM", sorry about that.

I'm hoping for a great book, in terms of literature. Brandon has certainly grown as a writer through out this process, and i think he can pull it off.

 

You truly believe that? Interested to hear in what way you think he has grown? As mentioned in the thread if anything the success that his involvement with the WoT has seemed to hold him back and ToM although containing a few strong passages was an absolute mess of a novel. It could have used another half year of polish and revision. If anything the penchant for turning a blind eye to constructive criticism and revelations that the extra time for AMoL hasn't been used in the manner initially proposed has me very worried.

 

Just seeing the ending is certainly not good enough. This is the final work upon which RJ's legacy will be judged. TGS and ToM have both shown to be sorely lacking when held up to the scrutiny of rereads. I had been very excited about this call for more time but now given Brandon's announcement/subsequent hand washing combined with things yoniy0 touches on above I'm no so optimistic. Think about it, RJ in his own world would do 8 drafts before even showing things to Harriet. That was supposed to be one of the bigger changes in Brandon's process but as mentioned above he said he was done with drafts before a beta reader had even read a copy?!?! I mean it's readily apparent based on how rough the last two books were that Brandon's "slapping words" down method when combined with the bare minimum amount of drafts is not the way to go about things.

Edited by Suttree
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I meant to say, it seems the extra time was used to let Brandon keep a saner schedule, and to produce the book with comfort, but not actually for a lengthier editing process (I've heard talk of 7 drafts from Brandon this time around, but the last two weren't very serious by his accounts, and I'm also deeply troubled by his announcement of conclusion before any beta-readers have seen this book). I meant to say "TGS and ToM", sorry about that.

I'm hoping for a great book, in terms of literature. Brandon has certainly grown as a writer through out this process, and i think he can pull it off.

 

You truly believe that? Interested to hear in what way you think he has grown? As mentioned in the thread if anything the success that his involvement with the WoT has seemed to hold him back and ToM although containing a few strong passages was an absolute mess of a novel. It could have used another half year of polish and revision. If anything the penchant for turning a blind eye to constructive criticism and revelations that the extra time for AMoL hasn't been used in the manner initially proposed has me very worried.

 

Just seeing the ending is certainly not good enough. This is the final work upon which RJ's legacy will be judged. TGS and ToM have both shown to be sorely lacking when held up to the scrutiny of rereads. I had been very excited about this call for more time but now given Brandon's announcement/subsequent hand washing combined with things yoniy0 touches on above I'm no so optimistic. Think about it, RJ in his own world would do 8 drafts before even showing things to Harriet. That was supposed to be one of the bigger changes in Brandon's process but as mentioned above he said he was done with drafts before a beta reader had even read a copy?!?! I mean it's readily apparent based on how rough the last two books were that Brandon's "slapping words" down method when combined with the bare minimum amount of drafts is not the way to go about things.

 

Very True.I too had a lot of gripes with the 2 new novels particularly ToM.It was a haphazardly put together novel with sometimes creaking prose which does not flow at all.Compare that with RJ's writing even in CoT and you will see the difference.Plus another gripe with BS was his lackluster handling of major events like Rand meeting with the Amyrlin.That was an absolutely horrible scene in terms of writing as we could not even feel the Amyrlin's anger properly and it was as if BS couldnt wait to get out of Tar Valon.BS only seems competent in handling Perrin scenes.Many of the characters like Mat and Cadsuane seem to elude him.Even Rand cannot be properly nailed down by BS.I think most of the PoVs of Rand in TGS were of RJ's since the prose flows better in those parts than the others.Same is the case I think with Mat's PoVs in ToM partcularly the ToG sequence.

 

I hope that he has used the extra time to polish his writing but I dont have much hopes of it.I will have to be content with knowing the ending.

Edited by The Prince of Ravens
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I feel like I need to say that I don't agree with claims of incompetency on Brandon's part. I feel like he does get the characters' motivations (which is the important part), just not always their voices. Regardless, it's not the parts that I honestly don't think Brandon can do (like dry, subtle humor) that bother me so much as the parts I think he can, and just doesn't (as been mentioned before, his tendency to tell rather than show, and his infantilizing -- for a prime example, you can say RJ did the 'finn section all you want, there's no way in hell RJ wrote the part when Mat finally understands how to use his Ashandarei).

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I suppose I didn't flesh out the second paragraph of my post above properly. I just slapped some words down. Do I wish RJ had finished the whole series? Who doesn't? Fact is, if Harriet hadn't liked Brandon right off the bat, she may well have hesitated and decided to scuttle the whole thing. My point, though, was that Brandon appears to have gotten better book to book. I hope it holds with the last one. It's certainly better than I could have done. I imagine it's very hard to write in someone else's sandbox and have it sound authentic. As much debate that I see here on who wrote what part, I'd say he's done as well as anyone could expect. It's certainly all we're going to get. Ending please.

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Not to mention, who knows what the man has to deal with to get the job done. Apparently, from what I read here, there's a mountain of notes and yet plenty of unwritten blanks and unanswered questions. Personally, I think the guy would probably get slammed for whatever he did by someone.

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Not to mention, who knows what the man has to deal with to get the job done. Apparently, from what I read here, there's a mountain of notes and yet plenty of unwritten blanks and unanswered questions. Personally, I think the guy would probably get slammed for whatever he did by someone.

 

I have no doubt that you're right, but I wish the people that ended up slamming him were the same people that had already slammed RJ's books rather than the other way around.

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