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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
1Brotherbill

Why I love (I mean hate) the books

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I enjoyed the first book of the Sword of Truth, but by about book four it was soooo preachy about how bad communism is that I out down the series. It felt like I had gone back in time to the seventies. We all know soviet style communism fails, because it had done so a decade before the book was written, I dont need a fantasy book coming late to the party.

 

My feelings exactly, although I tried to hang on till after book 7 (? pillars of creation) wich was mostly from his sisters pov iirc, I laid aside the next one a couple of chapters in and couldn't get myself back into it.

 

If it is a pure rip off from WoT is a bit of a strong sentiment imo. There are more than some similarities, but that is quite common in coming of age/farmer boy becomes hero etc.

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Ender's Game was good. Never read the rest of them. Iain Banks writes some good Sci Fi. Have only read a couple of books. The stories aren't mindblowing but I like his vision of the future - as in, I think he has some good ideas.

 

I definitely recommend the rest of the Ender books. They have a different feel because they were written differently, and the stories are good. If you don't mind some religion increasingly entering the books. He has lots of other great books too: the Homecoming series, Pastwatch, etc.

 

Apparently there's a film due out next year..

 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1731141/

Edited by FarShainMael

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I enjoyed the first book of the Sword of Truth, but by about book four it was soooo preachy about how bad communism is that I out down the series. It felt like I had gone back in time to the seventies. We all know soviet style communism fails, because it had done so a decade before the book was written, I dont need a fantasy book coming late to the party.

My feelings exactly, although I tried to hang on till after book 7 (? pillars of creation) wich was mostly from his sisters pov iirc, I laid aside the next one a couple of chapters in and couldn't get myself back into it.

I read all the way through #8, although I wish I'd stopped at ... oh, #2 or so. I really liked the first two.

 

No one's given the obligatory warning about graphic sexual torture scenes though. And they aren't written to establish a theme of brutality or a cruel world, or anything thematic at all. They're written for people who enjoy reading rape scenes. Now I don't mind if a book contains something I'd rather not read. I can deconstruct it instead of taking it seriously, or have a laugh at the author, or whatever. But some people really mind, and they deserve to know that Goodkind's first 7 books all have a graphic sexual torture scene. #8 did not, although it also had no plot. And I don't know what happens after #8.

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Don't! The rest of the Ender series are increasingly bad, filled with deus ex machina and pop-psychology. If you like Ender's Game (and I can't imagine why you wouldn't), try the Shadow series instead. It's much better.

 

What!? Speaker for the Dead is awesome! Not as much of a plot twist as Ender's Game, but the plot twist in Ender's game didn't do as much for me as it did other people. I do agree that Xenocide and Children of the Mind are not good though. OSC gets little full of his own ideas and tries to throw every commentary he has on the world into the books.

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I find your post to be completely off base. If you haven't read most of them, as you yourself said then you have no room to talk about them in such a harsh manner. Read them all, them come back and talk about it. Actually form your own opinion instead of just repeating what everyone always says about them. Then I'll debate you. Also, you don't get to decide that readers who enjoyed them are "typically younger readers whom have a limited exposure to that particular genre of fantasy and a similarly limited exposure to the themes he tries to preach.". Very judgmental of you to say. Should try being a little less offensive and you might get a better response.

 

I don't want to debate you. Those books are trash. I have read more than enough of them to see that the quality of writing is abysmal, the plot lines are all cheap rip offs from others, and the political interjections are flawed and poorly understood by the author. The guy clearly read a couple WoT books and was inspired enough to write his own so he pretty much just took the exact same plot and added some twists of his own to it. Then somewhere along the line he read Ayn Rand and decided from there out he would rip her off. The problem is that he legitimately didn't understand the material he was ripping off and the reason he has so many books is because he was learning more and more as he was writing.

 

More power to you if you enjoy the series - I wont knock anyone for enjoying it. But don't try to pretend the series or the author is of any ranking above trash tier when compared to peers.

Edited by Mark D

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I enjoyed the first book of the Sword of Truth, but by about book four it was soooo preachy about how bad communism is that I out down the series. It felt like I had gone back in time to the seventies. We all know soviet style communism fails, because it had done so a decade before the book was written, I dont need a fantasy book coming late to the party.

 

My feelings exactly, although I tried to hang on till after book 7 (? pillars of creation) wich was mostly from his sisters pov iirc, I laid aside the next one a couple of chapters in and couldn't get myself back into it.

 

If it is a pure rip off from WoT is a bit of a strong sentiment imo. There are more than some similarities, but that is quite common in coming of age/farmer boy becomes hero etc.

 

To understand how badly it is a rip off from WoT you need to look at the dates the books were all published and written. The first 4 WoT books were published from 1990-1992. SoT was first published in 1994 (that means he wrote the book from '92 onward very likely). Goodkind clearly read the first 4 WoT books and copied the major plotlines nearly exactly for the first couple of his books. After he uses his imitation WoT to stake his claim as an author that can sell books his series takes a distinct turn and goes its own way (Goodking started reading and copying Ayn Rand). The problem is not that they have a lot in common, the problem is that it goes very far beyond that to the point where specific plot elements from WoT were copied...and copied so poorly that it was almost laughable.

 

Modern readers who read each series from beginning to end will find little in common because the stories do separate so strongly after their first couple books. The blatant rip off stuff comes from the readers who were reading WoT originally and then started reading SoT when it was originally released in '94. Keep in mind that at that point the only material from SoT that existed were the books that were "copied". It was enough to make you put the book down and want to write a letter to RJ or Tor. RJ himself even commented on it at some point when asked.

Edited by Mark D

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I understand the release dates and that both the early storylines have quite some similarities, but to name it a complete rip off is too strong a sentiment imo. in that same sentiment EotW is being accused of being a rip off of Fellowship. I don't agree with those statements.

What about the Shannara series, also farmerboy get's taken away to find a magical sword to kill a warlock. mmh, sound familiar much? written in 1977. That's what i mean it's kind of typical for these stories. Couldn't get myself finishing the first book (Sword of Shannara) as i just finished WoT for the first time up untill book 9 or w/e was the last book at the time, because it was just too similar.

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I understand the release dates and that both the early storylines have quite some similarities, but to name it a complete rip off is too strong a sentiment imo. in that same sentiment EotW is being accused of being a rip off of Fellowship. I don't agree with those statements.

What about the Shannara series, also farmerboy get's taken away to find a magical sword to kill a warlock. mmh, sound familiar much? written in 1977. That's what i mean it's kind of typical for these stories. Couldn't get myself finishing the first book (Sword of Shannara) as i just finished WoT for the first time up untill book 9 or w/e was the last book at the time, because it was just too similar.

I agree. Even the total number of the party by the end of EotW is 9 - Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene (do you think she's Merry or Pippin?), Moiraine, Lan, Loial, Nynaeve, Tom Merrilon. But, in the end tWoT is completely different than LOTR. I've never read the Sword of Truth saga, and probably won't.

Read Shanarra a million years ago, and the Scion series, too. They're all right - entertaining.

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I understand the release dates and that both the early storylines have quite some similarities, but to name it a complete rip off is too strong a sentiment imo. in that same sentiment EotW is being accused of being a rip off of Fellowship. I don't agree with those statements.

What about the Shannara series, also farmerboy get's taken away to find a magical sword to kill a warlock. mmh, sound familiar much? written in 1977. That's what i mean it's kind of typical for these stories. Couldn't get myself finishing the first book (Sword of Shannara) as i just finished WoT for the first time up untill book 9 or w/e was the last book at the time, because it was just too similar.

 

The first Shannara book is one of the most cold blooded rip offs of LotR there is. Have a great quote from a famous critic on it I'll pull later...

 

Edit: As the fantasy editor and critic Lin Carter once said:

"the single most cold-blooded, complete rip-off of another book that I have ever read".[28] Elaborating on his disapproval of the book, Carter wrote that "Terry Brooks wasn't trying to imitate Tolkien's prose, just steal his story line and complete cast of characters, and [brooks] did it with such clumsiness and so heavy-handedly, that he virtually rubbed your nose in it

 

RJ on the other hand said he specifically put us in a familiar place early in tEotW before branching out as the story evolves.

Edited by Suttree

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Don't! The rest of the Ender series are increasingly bad, filled with deus ex machina and pop-psychology. If you like Ender's Game (and I can't imagine why you wouldn't), try the Shadow series instead. It's much better.

 

I agree that the shadow series is better.

 

I enjoyed the first book of the Sword of Truth, but by about book four it was soooo preachy about how bad communism is that I out down the series. It felt like I had gone back in time to the seventies. We all know soviet style communism fails, because it had done so a decade before the book was written, I dont need a fantasy book coming late to the party.

 

My feelings exactly, although I tried to hang on till after book 7 (? pillars of creation) wich was mostly from his sisters pov iirc, I laid aside the next one a couple of chapters in and couldn't get myself back into it.

 

If it is a pure rip off from WoT is a bit of a strong sentiment imo. There are more than some similarities, but that is quite common in coming of age/farmer boy becomes hero etc.

 

When it gets to the point where every group, major and minor, in WoT has group that is almost exactly the same, then that is where it crosses a line for me. A few examples I know of off hand are the aiel and the swordpeople, the maidens and his torture masters, and the tower and the hive (which, by the way, have very similar political structures, complete with a BA counterpart).

 

I understand the release dates and that both the early storylines have quite some similarities, but to name it a complete rip off is too strong a sentiment imo. in that same sentiment EotW is being accused of being a rip off of Fellowship. I don't agree with those statements.

What about the Shannara series, also farmerboy get's taken away to find a magical sword to kill a warlock. mmh, sound familiar much? written in 1977. That's what i mean it's kind of typical for these stories. Couldn't get myself finishing the first book (Sword of Shannara) as i just finished WoT for the first time up untill book 9 or w/e was the last book at the time, because it was just too similar.

 

Shannara is a LotR for children. It is good enough, though the trilogies get kinda repetitive.

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When it gets to the point where every group, major and minor, in WoT has group that is almost exactly the same, then that is where it crosses a line for me. A few examples I know of off hand are the aiel and the swordpeople, the maidens and his torture masters, and the tower and the hive (which, by the way, have very similar political structures, complete with a BA counterpart).

 

Yes, that is what is key. Not only were plot points copied, but specific world building elements and details unique to the WoTs world were all copied. When a book has a couple of those elements in it then nobody bats an eye, but when almost every single major element has a near exact clone in this other series that also includes major plot points being copied...then it is frankly disgusting. The only reason there was not a law suit IMO is because Tor did both series.

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Have you read the first few sword of truth books? Because the first book really can't be compared to teotw, they have similar things, but there are a lot of differences. The wizards first rule has a love story in it. I can see later on in the series where you could think that they are copied but Wizards First Rule is a pretty good book, and there are a lot of ideas in it that are not borrowed from wheel of time. And as stated the similarities between teotw and fellowship are there. I felt like i was reading fellowship when i started reading teotw.

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I find your post to be completely off base. If you haven't read most of them, as you yourself said then you have no room to talk about them in such a harsh manner. Read them all, them come back and talk about it. Actually form your own opinion instead of just repeating what everyone always says about them. Then I'll debate you. Also, you don't get to decide that readers who enjoyed them are "typically younger readers whom have a limited exposure to that particular genre of fantasy and a similarly limited exposure to the themes he tries to preach.". Very judgmental of you to say. Should try being a little less offensive and you might get a better response.

I don't want to debate you.

 

Oh well good. Because you would do poorly. Glad to not have to waste my time. Have a good day. Hell, have an original thought. : ]

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Also, I'm going to go ahead and excuse myself from this thread right now. So do me a solid and don't even bother replying. I can't afford another ban and a couple of you are seeming like you're going to give me a perfect opportunity for just that. Cheers.

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PETER HAMILTON - The Reality Dysfunction trilogy. Give this damn sci-fi book a shot cuz it's amazing. Star trek? What's star trek? Peter Hamilton.

I liked that one as well. Very different type of Sci Fi. I need to Amazon that one now.

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Who wrote the shadow series? I'll just amazon it. ;)

 

Edit: OH! It's Orson Scott Card. Same character I take it.

Edited by thisguy

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What!? Speaker for the Dead is awesome! Not as much of a plot twist as Ender's Game, but the plot twist in Ender's game didn't do as much for me as it did other people. I do agree that Xenocide and Children of the Mind are not good though. OSC gets little full of his own ideas and tries to throw every commentary he has on the world into the books.

 

I'd say Xenocide and Children of the Mind aren't as good as Speaker for the Dead, but I still like them.

 

No one ever seems to mention it, but I'm a huge fan of Card's Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus.

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I didn't like the ones about Bean, it just seemed lazy to rewrite your hugely popular series from a different angle.

 

While we are on it, don't bother with Ender's Game unless you are 12-16. It is a very 'young adults' book and reading it as a real adult I found it very obvious where it was going, but I remember when I read it wishing I had read it 4 years before so I wouldn't of picked it up so easy.

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Personally I enjoy books for the journey, not the end. I love Ender's Game as an adult, it doesn't matter that the end isn't a mystery.

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I didn't like the ones about Bean, it just seemed lazy to rewrite your hugely popular series from a different angle.

 

While we are on it, don't bother with Ender's Game unless you are 12-16. It is a very 'young adults' book and reading it as a real adult I found it very obvious where it was going, but I remember when I read it wishing I had read it 4 years before so I wouldn't of picked it up so easy.

 

I kind of agree with this. But it still is a good book, its just the ending is visible from a mile away. I remember reading it in college, and everyone telling me that I was going to love the ending. And when I got there, I felt kind of 'meh' about it.

 

This is why I appreciate Speaker for the Dead more. It has a few good ideas that I really enjoy, and some good tension.

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Pendragon Series, by DJ McHale. 10 books, and just because the title had "dragon" in it, it has nothing to so with those.

 

Also, the Mistborn trilogy and stormlight archive, by brandon Sanderson.

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So much SoT hate ;D

 

I personally like the series (enough to re-read from time to time).

 

I guess I'm just one of those people who can look past the astrocious (at times) writing and offputting, awkward rape scenes that border on sadomasochism. I also don't have a problem with how "preachy" the books are accused of being. TG himself referring to his series as more philosophical than fantastical in nature aside, his 5 paragraph lectures of the evils of socialism, of the same recycled material, is nothing compared to the 5 page descriptions detailing the clothing, gestures, postures, body language, hair, material possessions, etc. of every person in a given room. I tend to agree with a lot of what Wool-headed lummox had to say about the series, though i wouldn't go so far as to use it to discourage other readers from reading the series which is why I don't understand why 95% of the WoT fan population seeth at the mention of SoT and have a knee jerk reaction to point out all of it's obvious flaws, completely oblivious to the fact that their beloved WoT has it's share of flaws. You could argue that TG stop with all the damn preaching. I could argue that RJ stop all the damn lip licking. I mean really.. WoT wisdoms/healers seems to know enough about herbs to concoct sedatives and painkillers, but seemingly no cure for chapped lips?.. jeez.

 

So, with that said, I would recommend SoT. Yes, there will be books in the series that you remain indifferent with.. some that may infuriate you (Naked Empire/Pillars of Creation were pretty iffy for me).. but what series doesn't have those? Don't let it stop you from finishing an amazing epic. I've only read tWoT series once, but I remember skimming through either WH or CoT. I just could not make it through the entirety of one or both of them. Also, TG has recently released the first of a three part book series that continues the SoT series. Titled "The Omen Machine", I wouldn't bother with it. It's trash.. a long winded short story written to pay off the mortgage. To say that I was disappointed is an understatement.

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I'd recommend Shadow over Ender series, although I'll note since it annoys a lot of people, Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow (the first book in both series) covers pretty much the same timeframe and events but from different points of view, I enjoy both and think they both add something so it doesn't bother me, and I think the rest of the Shadow series is more interesting then the rest of teh Ender series.

 

Again would also recommend Robin Hobb, Assassin, Liveship and Golden Fool trilogies, ASoIaF(!!!) and the Jim Butcher ones for comparatively light reading. And I don't know how this will go down, but I'd recommend Magician by Feist, and most of his follow up books that don't focus on Pug (I'll admit that I haven't read his later books but they started to seem to follow a pattern) Magician as a stand alone fantasy book (that actually ends) is brilliant!

 

I also like Iain Banks, would recommend starting with the Player of games as it's his most accessable book (imo).

 

Neil Gaiman...

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