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How has Demandred "unleashed the balefire" in your opinion?


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So, anyway. Back on topic. Is there any evidence that he has ever balefired things at the dark one's command? I don't recall anything that has implied that. I always took it as a "how far will you go for me" question. I suppose a re-read with that in mind might show something, but I don't believe he has been out zapping threads. The oddities we see are normal evil type stuff from the bore widening. If Dem had been out burning the pattern, I would think we would at least get some "I saw you die, but here you are. I must be crazy" type remarks from characters. (or other mis remembrances from balefire effects). And I can't think of any examples to support that.

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So, anyway. Back on topic. Is there any evidence that he has ever balefired things at the dark one's command? I don't recall anything that has implied that. I always took it as a "how far will you go for me" question. I suppose a re-read with that in mind might show something, but I don't believe he has been out zapping threads. The oddities we see are normal evil type stuff from the bore widening. If Dem had been out burning the pattern, I would think we would at least get some "I saw you die, but here you are. I must be crazy" type remarks from characters. (or other mis remembrances from balefire effects). And I can't think of any examples to support that.

 

Well the ripple scenes fit the description of "balesscreams" about perfectly. That would be enough I think given how little we have been given about Dem overall.

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So, anyway. Back on topic. Is there any evidence that he has ever balefired things at the dark one's command? I don't recall anything that has implied that. I always took it as a "how far will you go for me" question. I suppose a re-read with that in mind might show something, but I don't believe he has been out zapping threads. The oddities we see are normal evil type stuff from the bore widening. If Dem had been out burning the pattern, I would think we would at least get some "I saw you die, but here you are. I must be crazy" type remarks from characters. (or other mis remembrances from balefire effects). And I can't think of any examples to support that.

The other evidence is the new chapter heading image first seen in The Gathering Storm, chapter 26 (and soon after, chapter 28: Night in Hinderstap). The new image is Age Lace unraveling.
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Wow. Super wall of quotations. I won't quote but refer to my previous post, which was not quoted in its entirety. Balefire CAN NOT be ressurected. Regardless of distance.

 

Yes they can.

 

How does the amount of balefire affect anything to do with distance? It affects the amount of time in which a person is retroactively burned out of the Pattern.

 

Because the farther from Shayol Gul the less control the DO has, it's in the quote. The DO normally would be able to resurrect someone if only small amount of balefire is used. Since it happened so far away from SG he wasn't able to. Only a theory but it certainly is as valid as most others I have seen.

 

That's simply not what RJ said. He said "the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, it's simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere."

 

He's not describing a setup in which a graduated system of slowly reducing influence radiates from Shayol Ghul. He's describing a two tiered system - Shayol Ghul, and the rest of the world. Shayol Ghul is special, for some metaphysical reason that I don't think can be described adequately. But there is no difference between other locations in the rest of the world, based on distance from Shayol Ghul. That is what "the Bore exists everywhere" means. Shayol Ghul is special and unusual. But the Dark One's access to the rest of the world is uniform.

 

And it is very easy to interpret that as the farther from SG the less access he has.

How is that easy to interpret from a statement that pretty much says the exact opposite?

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So, anyway. Back on topic. Is there any evidence that he has ever balefired things at the dark one's command? I don't recall anything that has implied that. I always took it as a "how far will you go for me" question. I suppose a re-read with that in mind might show something, but I don't believe he has been out zapping threads. The oddities we see are normal evil type stuff from the bore widening. If Dem had been out burning the pattern, I would think we would at least get some "I saw you die, but here you are. I must be crazy" type remarks from characters. (or other mis remembrances from balefire effects). And I can't think of any examples to support that.

The other evidence is the new chapter heading image first seen in The Gathering Storm, chapter 26 (and soon after, chapter 28: Night in Hinderstap). The new image is Age Lace unraveling.

Ya but is that the dark one's touch or a vague hint at balefire effects. I don't know, but I'd think we'd have been given a bit more than that to go on. Dunno

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Wow. Super wall of quotations. I won't quote but refer to my previous post, which was not quoted in its entirety. Balefire CAN NOT be ressurected. Regardless of distance.

 

Yes they can.

 

How does the amount of balefire affect anything to do with distance? It affects the amount of time in which a person is retroactively burned out of the Pattern.

 

Because the farther from Shayol Gul the less control the DO has, it's in the quote. The DO normally would be able to resurrect someone if only small amount of balefire is used. Since it happened so far away from SG he wasn't able to. Only a theory but it certainly is as valid as most others I have seen.

 

That's simply not what RJ said. He said "the Bore doesn't really exist in Shayol Ghul, the Bore exists everywhere, it's simply in Shayol Ghul where it can be perceived most easily. By the same token he has greater access to people at Shayol Ghul than he does elsewhere."

 

He's not describing a setup in which a graduated system of slowly reducing influence radiates from Shayol Ghul. He's describing a two tiered system - Shayol Ghul, and the rest of the world. Shayol Ghul is special, for some metaphysical reason that I don't think can be described adequately. But there is no difference between other locations in the rest of the world, based on distance from Shayol Ghul. That is what "the Bore exists everywhere" means. Shayol Ghul is special and unusual. But the Dark One's access to the rest of the world is uniform.

 

And it is very easy to interpret that as the farther from SG the less access he has.

How is that easy to interpret from a statement that pretty much says the exact opposite?

 

You are of course welcome to that interpretation...

Edited by Suttree
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Physical distance doesnt stop the Dark One from bringing someone back. Ishamael died in Tear, more or less as far from Shayol Ghul as the map shows. Physical distance only limits his direct influence on the Pattern.

Edited by Drekka Mort
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Speaking on those terms, I wonder how much more difficult or easier it would be to resurrect someone who was in TAR in the flesh......

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Speaking on those terms, I wonder how much more difficult or easier it would be to resurrect someone who was in TAR in the flesh......

I don't believe he can. I think TAR is beyond his reach. Although that leaves a problem with the creation of dark hounds. But as I said before, the where and the how may have to do with TAR.

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Speaking on those terms, I wonder how much more difficult or easier it would be to resurrect someone who was in TAR in the flesh......

I don't believe he can. I think TAR is beyond his reach. Although that leaves a problem with the creation of dark hounds. But as I said before, the where and the how may have to do with TAR.

 

Um, Ishamael was actually killed while in Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh. So, we know he can get to souls killed there.

Edited by Neophyte
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good catch sir. I had forgotten that, those early seens, with ishy and rhavin are sometimes confusing.

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Speaking on those terms, I wonder how much more difficult or easier it would be to resurrect someone who was in TAR in the flesh......

I don't believe he can. I think TAR is beyond his reach. Although that leaves a problem with the creation of dark hounds. But as I said before, the where and the how may have to do with TAR.

 

Um, Ishamael was actually killed while in Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh. So, we know he can get to souls killed there.

100% sure the exact moment of death occurred In TAR? The body was in the real world, so brain/soul death may have occurred after leaving TAR.

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Should we assume that Demandred is using TP balefire to cause these balescreams? Or does he have a sa'angreal. Rand pretty well needed one to cause a balescream.

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Speaking on those terms, I wonder how much more difficult or easier it would be to resurrect someone who was in TAR in the flesh......

I don't believe he can. I think TAR is beyond his reach. Although that leaves a problem with the creation of dark hounds. But as I said before, the where and the how may have to do with TAR.

 

Um, Ishamael was actually killed while in Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh. So, we know he can get to souls killed there.

100% sure the exact moment of death occurred In TAR? The body was in the real world, so brain/soul death may have occurred after leaving TAR.

Yes. I don't have the book here with me, but I encourage you to go back and read the passage. Ishy dies in TAR, and the body returns to Tear to decompose.

 

I believe that the DO has a much stronger ability to affect things in TAR than the real world. I would argue that's one of the reasons balefire and other elements that induce chaos are unleashed in his name. The less reality is governed by rules (i.e. physics), the more "changable" it becomes, the more likely the DO is able to make changes he desires.

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Speaking on those terms, I wonder how much more difficult or easier it would be to resurrect someone who was in TAR in the flesh......

I don't believe he can. I think TAR is beyond his reach. Although that leaves a problem with the creation of dark hounds. But as I said before, the where and the how may have to do with TAR.

 

Um, Ishamael was actually killed while in Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh. So, we know he can get to souls killed there.

100% sure the exact moment of death occurred In TAR? The body was in the real world, so brain/soul death may have occurred after leaving TAR.

Yes. I don't have the book here with me, but I encourage you to go back and read the passage. Ishy dies in TAR, and the body returns to Tear to decompose.

 

I believe that the DO has a much stronger ability to affect things in TAR than the real world. I would argue that's one of the reasons balefire and other elements that induce chaos are unleashed in his name. The less reality is governed by rules (i.e. physics), the more "changable" it becomes, the more likely the DO is able to make changes he desires.

Yes, I suppose that Ishy could not have called out for help from the great lord, and receive it, if the DO was not able to touch TAR.

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Ok, lets think about Demandred balefiring shit. Say he's trying to destabilize the pattern.

Well, from knife of dreams I speculate he's using massive amounts of balefire, but we're not getting POV's of people saying, 'well, there was a city there yesterday' so he's doing it in remote places.

 

So he's either trying to tear the pattern up - and thus having strange effects, like destabalizing the glass columns in rhuidean, altering avi's viewings, (we know balefire has a bad effect on ter'angreal, such as the testing one in the white tower)

And destroying the age lace in my opinion would probably screw up the solidity of min's viewings etc.

 

Or he's up in the blight blasting a hole in the pattern to make a prison for rand.

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Yes, I never considered what affect BF would have on the glass columns. Or Min's visions. CrAzY idea. I love it.

 

 

What is he Balfires Bella, would that = the end of existence?

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Bela has an ability similar to calandor, where she can actually deflect the weaves. She taught perrin the ability.

 

And yeah, I've been convinced since the beginning that Avi's viewings were complete and utter horse shit. Fabricated to make her go down a dark road, and nothing to be taken as true,.

 

Balefire seemed like a good reason for the inaccuracy, other than Nakomi doing something to them/her.

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Well, that's a theory (balefire affecting Avi's visions in Rhuidean) I've never read or considered before. I don't agree with it in any way, shape, or form, but it's certainly new.

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As the founder of that theory, I'm still more on the lines of it being Nakomi induced, I was just speculating as to the nature of massive BF.

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Sidetrack for a second... that brings me to a question: if one of the female Forsaken is masking her ability to channel, can a male channeler in her presence still feel the goosebumps? Hmm...

 

 

Iirc, no, as per Rand's comment to Casuande and Nynavene right before he loses his hand about them embracing the source.

Sorry, don't have relevant quotes on hand

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Sidetrack for a second... that brings me to a question: if one of the female Forsaken is masking her ability to channel, can a male channeler in her presence still feel the goosebumps? Hmm...

 

 

Iirc, no, as per Rand's comment to Casuande and Nynavene right before he loses his hand about them embracing the source.

Sorry, don't have relevant quotes on hand

 

That's correct. Its in Rand's thoughts in KoD chapter 27 - the chapter where they meet with Fake Tuon/Semirhage and Rand gets his hand blown off.

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I just had an idea, can the damage to the pattern happen back when the balefire burned threads back to. so you balefire something into the past a long way say with the choeden kal, can the damage occur in the past at that time. So all the rearranging the spoilage and the ghosts and all be damage from his insane balefire and whatever other balefire has been used to.

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If Natrin's Barrow is any indication, then Min and Graendal feel the balescream after the balefire happens and notice nothing before that. I don't believe they feel the compensations and sorting out of the paradoxes of the pattern until the balefire happens. The ramifications are felt in the present time.

 

I'm not sure if I'm expaining what I mean adequately here, but the symptoms of the Pattern's unraveling were not apparent until well after LoC (WH I believe?), where the balefire order was given. It would seem that if it went the other way back in time, there'd be stuff in LoC about it or at least in the timeline overlaps in ACoS. Also, I cannot imagine the balefire used would be strong enough to affect things in the past 'a long way' in any case.

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